Can we get Ganondorf's up+B to be meteor-cancellable?

[Thor]

@Kien @Pin Clock

I was playing Ganondorf dittos last night and it hit me - Ganondorf's up+B grab is about as obnoxious as Sonic's dair.

The thing literally can kill you at 0% if Ganondorf is low enough recovering, or with the right read from zero using side+b, cancelling, and then up+Bing them. Given that Minus seems to have a "no true spikes" policy [fixing Sonic's dair and Lucario's up+b (that was way back) and then having none], having Ganondorf's up+b be a basically guaranteed KO at around 30% when below the ledge seems really dumb.

I'd appreciate if the move was made into something that can be meteor-cancelled. I understand this may require tweaks to how the up+B animation finishes (maybe he goes higher or this animation has more IASA frames or whatever), but as of now this move is infuriating to play against and admittedly feels kind of annoying to land.

We're removing the spike the on Sonic's dair and replacing it with a meteor smash - could we do the same to Ganondorf's up+b?

Also, not related, but the SOWP build basically has Kien Ganon [has gerudo at least, and old dsmash and utilt] - while Gerudo is supposed to have no armor, BC and I did a bunch of dittos last night, and he mistimed a Gerudo badly and I landed the Warlock Punch - HOWEVER, perhaps because it was early enough in the animation, he armored through it and got me (I killed him later since anything in ganon's whole moveset except grounded side+b and pummels/grab release would KO someone at 668% - taking 2% spyglass damage earlier in the stock). Is this just a byproduct of the input method, or a straight-up glitch? If it's a glitch it should be looked at (though I think it's probably a byproduct of the unique input method for Gerudo Dragon).

 

[Bent 00]

Sonic's D-Air is a lot easier to land than 'Dorf's Up-B. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally.

What did you think of the new Gandouken, Thor?

 

[NEWB]

It's pretty hard to land the dark dive grab. If they can use the sideb cancel to combo into it, feels like they deserve the kill for setting that up properly.

If all true spikes are supposed to be removed, then it should be changed I guess. Otherwise, I see no problems.

 

[Glyph]

Not infracting anyone, but just a warning. This thread is about Ganon's up b. This is not about certain adjustments other people have made.

On topic, if you get caught offstage with Ganon's side b you prob deserve to lose a stock. If he can pull it off where he gets his upb off as well then great work, ganon outplayed you. As for the armor thing I have no idea, you'd have to run it by a current broomer

 

[Gold_TSG]

Basically agreed with Glyph on this one. Soon as I saw "low enough" and "right read," I would have said the same thing. If you're caught by it that low, you need to ask yourself what you're doing down there, and if he's catching you with side b like that, well... That would be your fault for getting caught.

 

[Mawootad]

It's not meteor cancellable because it's not at a steep enough angle to be considered a meteor smash (325 as opposed to the 315 upper limit for a meteor smash).

 

[Thor]

It's not meteor cancellable because it's not at a steep enough angle to be considered a meteor smash (325 as opposed to the 315 upper limit for a meteor smash).

I understand the technical side of things on this...

but seriously, it kills you at like 50% offstage. If someone whiffs an edgeguard slightly, they just straight up die. Is this the model we want for this move? It seems incongruent with a lot of other parts of Minus.

The whole "right read" thing annoys me because other moves that do similar things don't work that way... even his dair can be meteor cancelled [I've done it offstage in lag as Falco TWICE IN A ROW and lived] but his up+b just kills people outright... or could we adjust the angle to be more horizontal?

Not infracting anyone, but just a warning. This thread is about Ganon's up b. This is not about certain adjustments other people have made.

On topic, if you get caught offstage with Ganon's side b you prob deserve to lose a stock. If he can pull it off where he gets his upb off as well then great work, ganon outplayed you. As for the armor thing I have no idea, you'd have to run it by a current broomer

Purely incidentally, he can just straight-up KO you with good timing pressing A on the side+b, then return to stage. The up+B part isn't actually necessary [and some characters, like Falco or Puff, can easily escape the up+B, but others [like another 'Dorf, Falcon, Fox] just can't - is that a balancing thing then?].

If it's not gonna change, I guess I'll just start edgeguarding with up+b when people go high... kills around the same percents the uppercut does.

 

[Glyph]

Yeah, so don't get caught by ganon's side-b offstage. That has never been a good idea. Now its a SUPER bad idea.

 

[Thor]

Yeah, so don't get caught by ganon's side-b offstage. That has never been a good idea. Now its a SUPER bad idea.

Prior to the cancel, it was actually an exceptional idea when you were up 2 stocks to 1 vs Ganondorf - I've done that to some myself in PM (the salt is hilarious).

But yeah, since he can perfectly time the cancel to KO you while living, it's just all kinds of atrocious in Brawl Minus.

 

[NEWB]

Ganondorf was designed to be a maximum punish character. What he lacks in offensive mobility he gains in power. That's how I feel and that's why I haven't had issues with what he can do. It's not that his weaknesses can't be exploited, it's that they must be exploited properly or Ganon will punish. That's both power, fear, and evil.

Now if he could just have more lightening attacks...

 

[Bent 00]

But yeah, since he can perfectly time the cancel to KO you while living, it's just all kinds of atrocious in Brawl Minus.

You keep bringing that up, but...

A.) The window for 'sploding a grabbed foe at the blastline without suiciding is very small; 1 frame IIRC,
B.) Anyone willing to risk suiciding (at low %) or allowing the foe to recover (at high %) deserves to show off with this if successful,
C.) 'Dorf can only do that against certain characters, and
D.) You deserve getting most likely K.O.ed if you let 'Dorf yank you offstage in the first place. Also,
E.) It's awesome and stylish to pull off such a risky K.O. (too bad a certain other move isn't as viable).

 

[Gold_TSG]

Bent. Please.

 

[Thor]

You keep bringing that up, but...

A.) The window for 'sploding a grabbed foe at the blastline without suiciding is very small; 1 frame IIRC,
B.) Anyone willing to risk suiciding (at low %) or allowing the foe to recover (at high %) deserves to show off with this if successful,
C.) 'Dorf can only do that against certain characters, and
D.) You deserve getting most likely K.O.ed if you let 'Dorf yank you offstage in the first place. Also,
E.) It's awesome and stylish to pull off such a risky K.O. (too bad a certain other move isn't as viable).

BC was doing it consistently in lag. Or else he cancelled like 3 times in a row there for no reason [since he SD'd afterwards]. I also have gotten it multiple times. If it's one frame, it feels very easy [whereas I can't super wavedash in Melee with Samus and some other stuff].

'Dorf can do it with only some? Certainly works on himself. I think I got it on Darxmarx once, so I'm not sure who this DOESN'T work against...

Also that move, even if safe offstage, literally hits at one point stage, or I think you can choose up to 3 if you're on a stage with walls [might be livable as is in 3.Q w/ fullhops on walled stages like Yoshi's??? Should test that.] I used your mod and neither BC or I even went for one [Ganondorf's recovery in the ditto is just too good to land one... though I almost got a Ness with it.]

 

[Mawootad]

Well Brawl has a much larger buffer compared to Melee, so 1 frame should be a lot larger window in Minus compared to Melee.

 

[Thor]

Well Brawl has a much larger buffer compared to Melee, so 1 frame should be a lot larger window in Minus compared to Melee.

No.

Buffering means you act the first available frame IF you are in the lag of another animation [a throw animation, free-fall, another attack, whatever].

You can press A at ANY TIME during the side+b to interrupt it.

So there is ZERO way to buffer this action - it must be timed precisely, because pressing A one frame too early will just initiate the move without the KO, assuming there is a one-frame window. You COULD buffer it IF there is a delay before you can start the cancel, BUT it would have to be the FIRST frame of actionability that was the frame perfect cancel to allow the cancel to be buffered and KO them, and that's not what's happening [and that would require perfect vertical/horizontal spacing, depending on which blastzone you do it on].

 

[Mawootad]

Ah, that would be my lack of dorf knowledge there

 

[NEWB]

I thought brawls buffer was zero and melee/pm had 6 or 12?

 

[Thor]

I thought brawls buffer was zero and melee/pm had 6 or 12?

Melee: 0 PM: 0 Brawl: 10 Smash 4: Known to exist, not sure how much...

However, Melee and PM [not Wi-Fi safe] allows c-stick "buffering", which means if you hold a roll or spotdodge [or maybe even jump] input on the c-stick, it will execute the first available frame [useful for escaping spacie shield pressure and in PM 3.02 Mewtwo teleport hover nair pressure]. I believe Brawl lacks this feature.

In PM you may turn on "input assist" and enable anywhere from 0 to 10 frames of buffer. Default is 0 and all [I guess most, some very small very non-standard tournaments may deviate] PM tournaments run 0 buffer.

 

[Tybis]

PM: 0

I thought it was 1? IDK.

 

[Thor]

I thought it was 1? IDK.

That would be a physics delay, so I think your character maybe takes 2 frames to start dashing, not one? I'd have to go watch the technical details, but it's not a buffer.