Buffs (Re-Do)

Discussion in 'Characters' started by Lightning, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  2. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    That 3.0 one's a lot more well made than the ones I've seen :D neutral B is a little boring to be honest, but some of the ones I've seen just suck, so this is a definite improvement ^^ ...the 2.3 one is alright too, but i don't like that the specials are basically the same... i'd like the side b to be different in this mode too, and the 2.3 one's down b in air reminds me of puppet Zelda's sword thing, which is actually pretty neat, but i also really like 3.0's down B sword drop thing... plus the ground down B charge looks a lot like Ganon's charge from twilight princess!! XD ...if possible, i'd like some more magic based attacks, but not that weird lighting up smash from the 2.3 one... that's just lame and lazy (I mean mentally, like not enough thought was put into it, but it does also look a little lazily made)... what i thought would have been nice is to create another character to hold most of Ganon's less iconic moves like the wizard's foot and punch and elbow, etc., but give ganon more magic and sword style play... if this was done, who I had in mind to hold on to Ganon's moves was black shadow from the F-Zero series... also, if Ganon was given more sword moves, then maybe a moveset could be made that could be compatible with both Ganon and Demise, from skyward sword... someone made some alts for Ganon that involved changing the Beast Ganon final smash into the imprisoned, and a lot of the heavy set sword play could fit for both of them, as well as the magic attacks... ... I want to eventually make something like this if I can ever hone my skills (and patience) with Brawlbox to a decent level...
     
  3. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    That actually looked fairly impressive, though the animations need some ironing out to look more natural and less stiff in spots.
     
  4. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Eternal Yoshi says feel free to use any of the new taunts he made for Snake.

    He also says "I've gotten much better at animating, and you guys can too, when you learn to animate with Maya.

    http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=64144.0

    I think all of Minus's new animations should be reanimated in Maya as they will look much better in the long run."
     
  5. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Played around with pm for awhile.

    It seems that characters that have tether recovery are able to grab ledges while another fighter is already on the ledge! This needs to happen ASAP.
     
  6. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    It has pros and cons. On one hand, that makes those with tethers much harder to gimp to hell, but at the same time, that leaves the rest of the cast vulnerable to ledge hogging. Only 7 characters out of the roster have tethers. Why not alter those with tether recoveries, like Zamus and Ivy? The others are optional tethers, so it seems much less necessary.
     
  7. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    I can live with that.... it would be funny if you couldn't ledge hog at all, but I am in no way suggesting it
     
  8. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    But fighters can grab the ledge while that person is hanging off the stage. And if someone is already on the edge, the tether person just falls off when they try to grab it.
     
  9. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    if we used that one, then trying to climb up the tether should do a small hit so if someone's edge hogging and you're tethered to the same ledge, you can climb it when they become vulnerable.... and of course you should be able to grab a ledge if someone's tethered to it too in this case, since otherwise people with tethers have an increased advantage
     
  10. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    To see how it works exactly, throw in pm and see for yourself. Pm devs liked the idea, and I sure they know what they are doing.

    Brawl minus is a different standard sorta though.
     
  11. Glyph

    Glyph Moderator

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    That's kind of a big thing in PM, we can't just steal it from them.
     
  12. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I fail to see how it's a big thing for them. We already share several mechanics with them too. Also, not sling something cuz they did it first is a REALLY terrible reason. At least from my point if view. If there is a better reason why this shouldn't happen in minus, I'd like to hear it.
     
  13. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    They got other recovery buffs that (given Minus's environment) are probably better, with the exception of ZSS, whose recovery feels nerfed to me in PM anyway - ZSS has her Brawl property of popping way up when she uses up+B right after a jump and her down+b, Ivysaur gets the same property and the Ivycopter (with its really high priority) and Olimar gets the pluck and flip for recovery (he can now go under FD! Now if only Sheik, Bowser, and GnW could make it...). I don't think buffing them further is a good idea at this point (if someone can show that they are easily gimpable and actively held back several spots on a tier list [or have significantly lower potential or whatever] by not having this mechanic, then maybe implement?)
     
  14. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    They coded this mechanic in from scratch, and it's included in they're gct (which is NOT publicly avaliable). Just copying it over in any way shape or form without permission to use something that they spent they're hard work and time making is flat out stealing. Furthermore, adding in a new mechanic into minus isn't the way to go. Instead, minus buffs recovery, not changes how it works altogether. Tetherhopping would change the way the game plays in drastic ways that isn't necessary with the recovery buffs we give everybody in minus.

    Back on the subject of PM. PM != Minus. They are not better then us or know what they are doing any more then us, they simply pursue a different goal. Granted they have a ton of manpower, and very talented individuals who DO know more about modding the game, but that doesn't make them better

    We are not in the position to take ANYTHING from PM, simply because any codes they make from scratch are essentially their intellectual property. While it wouldn't be ILLEGAL to steal the codes since they don't own anything from a legal standpoint, it's simply not morally correct to do. Finally, tetherhopping would throw off the balance of the game immensely even if we DID get permission to use it, and it doesn't fit minus at all when all our characters have buffed recovery

    [NOTE: I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR THE REST OF THE DEV TEAM IN REGARDS TO THE BALANCE, HOWEVER EVERYBODY IN THE BR IS AGAINST TAKING CODES WITHOUT PERMISSION]
     
  15. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I wasn't suggesting that we take their codes. Am I wrong in assuming that we can make a different code that does the same thing?

    I also don't see how it ruins the balance of the game. When someone is on the ledge, whatever you did the the tethers are pretty much null and void, with the exception of olimar. Who doesn't need this at all since he can use his to hit people on edges and recover simultaneously.
     
  16. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    The tether code would shake up the balance of the game quite a bit because Minus wasn't designed around it and would require many things to be recoded to adjust to it so tether recoveries aren't OP.
     
  17. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I'd sooner rather see every tether character have a different recovery than steal coding just cause someone else did it differently.
     
  18. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Don't forget that tethers on PM also send the user into helpless state afterwards. Way back on page 1, someone mentioned speeding up Toon Link's grab. That won't be happening due to the fact that he has very good KO grabs. They're well worth the risk as is.
     
  19. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I was never suggesting that we steal anything from anyone here. That being said, project m has pretty much done all kinds of things and figured out practically everything. Why does that apparently mean we can't do shit anymore?

    What about the adjustments that they made to their camera? Can we not do something like that either? I really like their camera for instance. That one is basically ripped from melee I think. Can we not do something like that either? They also got alternate effects on different textures for the same characer. We can't do that? What about the launcher they just made? It can run brawl minus as long as you put the code in. Can we do that? Get our very own launcher?

    Character improvements and introductions are great obviously, but it just feels like we are helplessly behind the times here. From what I can tell, the only interesting thing that we will get over them is potentially a new SSE. Otherwise, we don't have a whole lot of special things. What really makes pm are all these aesthetic improvemts. I'm not hating on us so much as I'm jealous of them. It feels like we got crap to play with. They are SO intent on making an old game look new,but WE have something that is unique and interesting that gets significantly less attention while we are the ones that get bagged on if you just talk to people.
     
  20. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    That is a very strong point kien. See? Now the issue is resolved. I'm perfectly done with not getting this now. Still have misgivings on the other things I've mentioned.
     
  21. Glyph

    Glyph Moderator

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    NEWB if you want to code those changes and give them to us we would absolutely love to use 'em, but we're not taking PM's and we don't have the coders to worry about stuff that's strictly cosmetic when there's still a lot of gameplay related factors to consider. Thats not to say we're not taking steps forward to look as nice as possible, but we have to pick our battles and changing things that work great already like the camera are pretty far down the list of stuff we need to do.
     
  22. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    NEWB for cosmetics coder.
     
  23. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    The reason were behind is not because we don't want things, or that we don't DO things its because....how many very talented people do you think they have in their BR? alot, IF we were able to code it ourselves we would have no problem doing something they did. However there isn't much that we want really. And you've also completely ignored what i said.

    things such as camera angles, different effects on costumes, a launcher, hurtsounds, SUBJECTIVE THINGS that they don't own at all are free game. There is nothing saying that we can't add hurtsounds or different effects on costumes or anything like that for that matter. The reason they have accomplished so much is because of 1.) how long they've been working on polishing this 1 official release. and 2.) the sheer manpower + talented coders they have on hand. Some of minus' old devs are PM devs even. It's unfortunate. In any case, tetherhopping is not something that i want to see in minus, and for future reference i would like to state that were are in no way avoiding things that they have already done. Thats NOT the case. We avoid things that would make people think 1.) were just copying PM. and 2.) things that don't belong to us, such as gct codes. (also i would like to state that they have in no way figured everything out. They have loads of talented individuals in the BR that have specialized areas of expertise. and while they figured out ALOT of things, you can't say they figured it all out.

    For example, OpenSA.dantarion.com is a wiki of information that, even in the opening statements of the brawl documentation project, states that they collected information from the community to gather in one place. I for one still contribute to this wiki often with my new findings. Im in no way saying that the PM devs didn't figure out alot of the stuff related to brawl hacking, as they sure as hell have, im saying that people need to stop treating them as gods and putting PM on a pedestal.

    Anyways, just from now on i want people to know that we don't 'avoid stuff because they've already done it'. We just aren't that interested in a ton of the stuff they've done, and even if we are we need permission.

    =======================================================================

    Thanks glyph, straight ninja'd me.

    Now, this update as i've said before is ushering in a new era of minus where we are trying our best to focus our attention on polishing the way the game looks and removing unnecessary things, same as PM has. i assure you that we are taking great efforts into making these next updates into revolutionary updates for the image of minus
     
  24. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    If someone can teach me *_*

    I mean, I'm willing to learn, but I don't really know how to go about doing anything. I wish I could help speed things along instead of being the guy that just brings the devs down a bit. I'm not trying to put pressure on anyone, but I gotta say something.
     
  25. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    same here xP i'm planning on taking some more time to learn to do this during the summer, maybe even become a lackey for the team or at least for one project, but i have no real experience or energy to do this stuff, especially right now :p ...but hopefully over the summer i can try to try my hand and help at this stuff... main thing is i know that the animating is tedious, and i have a very short attention span, the coding is difficult, and i have no idea how to go about changing anything in that aspect, and the aesthetics and artwork (skins and csp's included) are just going to take forever if i'm working on them and probably not going to be the insane quality that the minus team has demonstrated... ...i guess i don't know much about balancing either, but i have ideas for moves that would be cool or interesting to see in the game, and i guess ideas are all i have right now... ...hopefully us "fans" can eventually help and become something useful to the team, but i honestly don't feel like i will end up doing so :/
     

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