Brawl Minus MAX 1.01 is HERE!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
Re:
i mained squirtle for a VERY significant amount of time when i wasn't 'allowed' to use Lucario. He is VERY good. watch some old vBrawl squirtle vids. the combos there haven't really been changed or touched significantly. use d-tilt as an integral part of your moveset as a combo starter. his aerial attacks are really where his power comes in.
shellshifting is much more simple then it seems. just dash one direction, then turn around really quick, while he is in his shell for the turnaround, start charging u-smash. if you time it right, you can slide all the way across the stage. it should feel like your 'slingshotting' out of his turnaround, mess around until you get the timing down.
now..his side-b is a really good move, but by no means OP. even in FFA's it's not too much of an offender. I'm personally against changing it, as i feel it's an integral part of his moveset, which i feel is really tight as is. The competitive side of Minus is REALLY fun. Before just writing the game off as a party game, please give it a try. while some things may seem stupid and OP at first glance, at higher levels, the game is INSANELY technical, BECAUSE the game is so fast and stupid. You have to be technical in every way, otherwise you WILL be overcome by the stupid stuff. it forces you to learn and react on the spot, just like any good competitive game should. give it a shot
in my personal opinion, i find minus more fun to play competitively then P:M (i didn't say more competitive, just more FUN competitively..so P:M fans don't shoot me, i play P:M too >.>)
Bent 00 said:
i mained squirtle for a VERY significant amount of time when i wasn't 'allowed' to use Lucario. He is VERY good. watch some old vBrawl squirtle vids. the combos there haven't really been changed or touched significantly. use d-tilt as an integral part of your moveset as a combo starter. his aerial attacks are really where his power comes in.
shellshifting is much more simple then it seems. just dash one direction, then turn around really quick, while he is in his shell for the turnaround, start charging u-smash. if you time it right, you can slide all the way across the stage. it should feel like your 'slingshotting' out of his turnaround, mess around until you get the timing down.
now..his side-b is a really good move, but by no means OP. even in FFA's it's not too much of an offender. I'm personally against changing it, as i feel it's an integral part of his moveset, which i feel is really tight as is. The competitive side of Minus is REALLY fun. Before just writing the game off as a party game, please give it a try. while some things may seem stupid and OP at first glance, at higher levels, the game is INSANELY technical, BECAUSE the game is so fast and stupid. You have to be technical in every way, otherwise you WILL be overcome by the stupid stuff. it forces you to learn and react on the spot, just like any good competitive game should. give it a shot
in my personal opinion, i find minus more fun to play competitively then P:M (i didn't say more competitive, just more FUN competitively..so P:M fans don't shoot me, i play P:M too >.>)
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
I was meaning party game as the justification for us playing FFAs on it, and we mainly do 1v1s at PM. With more Wiis and TVs we can expand, but nobody wants to do FFAs on PM, and too many people want to play at once to justify 1v1s on Minus most days.
I never said minus wasn't technical, but in the past we did have complaints that it punished good plays since certain characters had moves that were too safe (One mentioned was the massive wind on TL's down-A), but most of the people who played and quit Minus under those reasons played it just in the 2.X days, so it may be considerably different if they were willing to try again. I'm not on the skill level for competitive play to comment on that, but it does make a great "party game" in the sense that it does not punish you hard for mistakes, it is up to the players to do so. PM on the other hand will let you fall and die pretty quickly from little mistakes and you can easily suicide away the whole match from accidental dodges, using a move that puts you into a stun state while moving you off the stage (Falcon side-b for example), or not reacting fast enough to gravity when you fall off a ledge... along with having an enemy to deal with at the same time.
I never said minus wasn't technical, but in the past we did have complaints that it punished good plays since certain characters had moves that were too safe (One mentioned was the massive wind on TL's down-A), but most of the people who played and quit Minus under those reasons played it just in the 2.X days, so it may be considerably different if they were willing to try again. I'm not on the skill level for competitive play to comment on that, but it does make a great "party game" in the sense that it does not punish you hard for mistakes, it is up to the players to do so. PM on the other hand will let you fall and die pretty quickly from little mistakes and you can easily suicide away the whole match from accidental dodges, using a move that puts you into a stun state while moving you off the stage (Falcon side-b for example), or not reacting fast enough to gravity when you fall off a ledge... along with having an enemy to deal with at the same time.
Smilindeth said:
that's understandable. i knew you weren't saying it wasn't technical
it's just that alot of players in the past, and many people still do, consider minus 'stupid' and 'broken'. back in the 2.X days, the game was MOSTLY focused on the shock factor and being silly and cool. The game is much more 'balanced' i would say. there's much less stupidly OP moves that go un-punished or moves that have TOO much reward. But the core concept that minus is SUPPOSED to be off the wall crazy is still there. i like it because it's close to as fast as P:M while not having so much punishment for messing up offstage and having so much emphasis on 'if you mess up, you gonna die', or something to that effect. Though once you get to high levels of play at minus, it does become 'if you mess up once, you gonna die' xD but that's just generally true of any competitive game.I like to believe that Minus is how Brawl shoulda been to make it fast and competitive without changing the core concepts of the game. (with a little crazy thrown in of course) lol
NEWB said:
I personally believe Bowser could be nerfed slightly. Bowser is a very solid character. Despite being a heavy character, he's surprisingly fast allowing him to chase and finish with his very strong aerial attacks. This is without factoring in his grappling capabilities.
And no, he does not have a chaingrab in the conventional sense but a shorthopped down-air combos EXTREMELY well into Royal Rampage Ground Slam (neutral b + down) which can be chained up to killing percents. Bowser can then finish the grounded opponent off down-smash. This alone makes Bowser pretty frustrating to play against. I really dislike this as it discourages the use of Bowser's other options and encourages the easy-mode win.
Thoughts?
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Bowsers' dair is easily sheild able and grab able afterwards. What character are you using? I main bowser and could probably just tell you if it's your match up, but usually, it's the player's fault and not the opponents. No one wants to here this, but if your foe times a move right and you fail to predict them, then your opponent has outplayed you. That is how competetive minus works.
NEWB said:
Newb, i am making this my sig lol. this is by far one of the best things i've heard to describe competitive minus, and should be thoroughly taken into consideration when evaluating a moves stupidity. NOW I'M NOT TAKING A SIDE ON THIS SITUATION. i don't play great bowsers so i don't have an opinion. This is just a very good quote to describe competitive minus as a whole
NEWB
Well-Known Member
lol Sammi. If I ever go on hiatus for some reason, you should change it to something like "the wise musings of a NEWB" or something. Make me sound mysterious cuz I wouldn't be around anymore.
I thought of something for royal rampage. The more I think about it, you do have a point about CLOSE range royal rampages being too safe. I think that for the first one or two steps, there should be a hitbox instead of a grab box that hits people like lucario's jab3. This way, the defender could escape before the grab comes out, as long as they tech away from bowser, as in the same direction bowser is walking. The move would be adjusted to place bowser at the end of RR and the defender at the end of their tech if they successfully teched properly. This would turn close ranged RR to a counter that deals maybe 10 damage to accommodate bowser tanking through an attack and leave both characters a short distance from one another to create a mix up. I really like this idea!
I thought of something for royal rampage. The more I think about it, you do have a point about CLOSE range royal rampages being too safe. I think that for the first one or two steps, there should be a hitbox instead of a grab box that hits people like lucario's jab3. This way, the defender could escape before the grab comes out, as long as they tech away from bowser, as in the same direction bowser is walking. The move would be adjusted to place bowser at the end of RR and the defender at the end of their tech if they successfully teched properly. This would turn close ranged RR to a counter that deals maybe 10 damage to accommodate bowser tanking through an attack and leave both characters a short distance from one another to create a mix up. I really like this idea!
The beginning of Bowser's RR is fine, it's just the duration of the move and how much Bowser travels with it that should be reduced.
Really the thing with Bowser (and any grappler in any fighter for that matter) is you gotta predict him before he predicts you, and play around the fact that he can easily pull out a devastating grab in an instant and plan around it. Royal Rampage just needs to be shortened a little more and have its endlag not be as safe for Bowser. It's supposed to be strong at the beginning as a safe reversal, but Royal Rampage's reward does outweigh it's risk a little as it is. The question is how to reduce it without it becoming useless?
Really the thing with Bowser (and any grappler in any fighter for that matter) is you gotta predict him before he predicts you, and play around the fact that he can easily pull out a devastating grab in an instant and plan around it. Royal Rampage just needs to be shortened a little more and have its endlag not be as safe for Bowser. It's supposed to be strong at the beginning as a safe reversal, but Royal Rampage's reward does outweigh it's risk a little as it is. The question is how to reduce it without it becoming useless?
i think we could just make it so he loses his super armor earlier in the endlag of the move? right now he keeps it all the way to the last frame of the animation
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I just want to see Bowser's moveset tweaked enough so that all his moves are viable. As-is, it's much better to use his Neutral B most of the time. His other moves aren't as effective... I'm no Bowser main, but anyone who starts playing as him relies on RR/GC too much -- and they get away with it.
Ideally, all of a character's moves would have some use. Anyone know of any "useless" moves, or ones you never use because other moves are always a better option?
Ideally, all of a character's moves would have some use. Anyone know of any "useless" moves, or ones you never use because other moves are always a better option?
NEWB
Well-Known Member
D3's down b sucks. I also don't see use of sheiks side b on the ground.
Just clarifying that all of bowsers moves have use. Also, you can't really abuse his gc. It only grabs people in special fall or if you do a move. Getting hit by gc is on the player. As for rr, I thought my suggestion would balance it out. At least on paper.
Just clarifying that all of bowsers moves have use. Also, you can't really abuse his gc. It only grabs people in special fall or if you do a move. Getting hit by gc is on the player. As for rr, I thought my suggestion would balance it out. At least on paper.
NEWB said:
sorry NEWB i gotta correct you on GC. if you royal rampage, and smash them into the ground. DON'T touch them. instead, wait til they pop out of the ground. jump just a little before they pop out and start GC. the popping out of the ground is similar to a grab release in that they CANT do much about the height or trajectory they come out of the ground at. if you do that, you WILL get GC. just try it out
also, you can RR smash them into the ground, short hop d-air, then grab again up to like 100% if you tech chase them.
We've already come up with a plan, and I assure you it will be very awesome. Not as OP as Counter>Eruption, but something still strong and worth getting your charge up for.
I'll admit Counter>Eruption was one of those "We'll get to it when we figure out how to approach it" kind of things, but now that we're giving Ike a good amount of attention in this upcoming update compared to Valentine's and the beta, this issue that absorbed a lot of Ike's strategy will be resolved once and for all.
I'll admit Counter>Eruption was one of those "We'll get to it when we figure out how to approach it" kind of things, but now that we're giving Ike a good amount of attention in this upcoming update compared to Valentine's and the beta, this issue that absorbed a lot of Ike's strategy will be resolved once and for all.
TheOriginalSINe
New Member
Hey everyone, first time posting here. Big fan of Minus, never really gave it a chance until recently, and now it's my favorite iteration of Smash Bros to date. Anyway, here's a couple of visual problems I've noticed:
Costumes:
>Sonic's alternate costumes don't match up at all with his character select portraits. This is due to missing files in the minusery/pf/fighter/sonic folder.
>All of the Pokemon trainer's Pokemon suffer from this as well; the files are there, they are simply the wrong ones (also missing the 05 costumes for all of them)
Battle Portraits:
>Pink Samus has the battle portrait of Fusion Suit Samus
>Purple Sonic (who isn't actually purple because of the above bug) has the battle portrait of Gold Ring Sonic.
Other:
>Replay stage thumbnails do not correspond to their new SSS counterparts
>Sonic and PT's Pokemon do not have the correctly colored head thumbails in the upper left of the screen [edit: during stage selection]
>Sonic and PT's Pokemon result screen pictures don't match up with their new costume coloring. The Pokemon pictures are also the old ones that have all the Pokemon in them. (Perhaps it would just be easier to replace all result screen portraits with the new sprite art?)
Costumes:
>Sonic's alternate costumes don't match up at all with his character select portraits. This is due to missing files in the minusery/pf/fighter/sonic folder.
>All of the Pokemon trainer's Pokemon suffer from this as well; the files are there, they are simply the wrong ones (also missing the 05 costumes for all of them)
Battle Portraits:
>Pink Samus has the battle portrait of Fusion Suit Samus
>Purple Sonic (who isn't actually purple because of the above bug) has the battle portrait of Gold Ring Sonic.
Other:
>Replay stage thumbnails do not correspond to their new SSS counterparts
>Sonic and PT's Pokemon do not have the correctly colored head thumbails in the upper left of the screen [edit: during stage selection]
>Sonic and PT's Pokemon result screen pictures don't match up with their new costume coloring. The Pokemon pictures are also the old ones that have all the Pokemon in them. (Perhaps it would just be easier to replace all result screen portraits with the new sprite art?)
Ferrous Faucet
Well-Known Member
While we're on that vein, since the Minus team is maintaining two common5.pac files (one with the "purple" portraits and one with the "paint.exe" portraits), I'll go ahead and point out that the stage select screen is different in them. If I recall, the "purple portraits" version has a stage select screen that more accurately reflects the real stages available. The stage portraits in the "paint.exe" version are lower resolution, and some of them are just thumbnails of the wrong stages (mushroomy kingdom, ice climbers stage are two examples if I remember).
I tried exporting sc_selcharacter2_en from the "purple portraits" version and importing it into the "paint.exe" version but it froze the game and I don't know why (at the same time I tried importing a custom sc_selcharacter_en for my own customized CSS portraits, so that might have had something to do with it).
If this is going to be addressed in a near-future release, I will hold off on tinkering with common5.pac until then. I won't even troubleshoot why my custom version froze the game until I see the Minus team's common5.pac tweaks.
I tried exporting sc_selcharacter2_en from the "purple portraits" version and importing it into the "paint.exe" version but it froze the game and I don't know why (at the same time I tried importing a custom sc_selcharacter_en for my own customized CSS portraits, so that might have had something to do with it).
If this is going to be addressed in a near-future release, I will hold off on tinkering with common5.pac until then. I won't even troubleshoot why my custom version froze the game until I see the Minus team's common5.pac tweaks.
oh it's gonna be big alright.
We're shooting for late March-Early April. This update focuses on expanding characters, stages, options, further polishing and balancing, as well as several other surprises!
Let's just say there won't be a "quick patch" option next update because when I say we're touching up everything I mean we're touching up everything.
Let's just say there won't be a "quick patch" option next update because when I say we're touching up everything I mean we're touching up everything.