Brawl Minus MAX 1.01 is HERE!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
We may consider making a seperate version of the next patch without cBliss, but the main patch will have it.
The reason behind that is, If you'd rather not have the costumes, its a little more complicated then 'just don't put them in' cBliss requires you have 10 costumes for each character. If not, the game will freeze. If there is to be a patch released alongside the next one, there needs to be significant changes to it so that it won't freeze.
The reason behind that is, If you'd rather not have the costumes, its a little more complicated then 'just don't put them in' cBliss requires you have 10 costumes for each character. If not, the game will freeze. If there is to be a patch released alongside the next one, there needs to be significant changes to it so that it won't freeze.
Vauss said:
Yes. We are considering two versions of the next patch: One with only the required costumes being added (For most characters, this is FitChar06-09), and one with many more costumes being added (So FitChar01-09).
cBliss even better for you if you want to use your own costumes because then you'll have more slots to add them in.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Gayest move ever IMO. Little skill required and so much pay out. Very easy to charge too since his moves either kill or send people flying far off. He also has plenty of time to charge up another one after he kills with it. The guy needs to take at least 30 damage before I consider this move as fair.
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
NEWB said:
He had plenty of strength in FFAs before when he had the walk as far as he wanted, but had to actually plan his throws. Bowser has plenty of great moves, but most get neglected in FFA since a couple of our players feel they NEED to use his armor grab since it chains into itself so well when grabbing one player immediately after throwing another.
Not saying he should lose the armor on the walk since it let's him survive crazy things, but when 3 people ARE 3v1'ing him and still lose to him when he just spams one move, there is a problem (Partially their skill level, but telling 8 people that they need to get considerably better to stand a chance against a guy who just presses B and occasionally turns around isn't fair). If it is seen as a weak move, then adjust it, maybe add a bit of fire onto the front so it does a small stun/knockback to make grabbing him when he faces you much harder, but keep the back open since it is the only way to fight him currently (which is near impossible in true FFAs since grabs from anyone else gets punished).
You make it sound like Bowser should be rewarded for not mixing up the fight. He SHOULD be punished if he feels the need to just do grabs. If I can remember, I will try to get some replays to show the problem. From a personal stance, I find him annoying but fightable since ranged grabs, Ganon, and Capt are great against him, but when I get to listen to people complain about him every other day, I feel someone should speak up.
Since I am not aware of what is going on behind the scenes, I will bring up a few things for CBliss. If you are using the code from here, remove it, unless you've done some extensive work to stop the random ass crashing it has (Especially when several people are changing their picks). The downloadable pack is handy for G&W, Trainer, and Peach's files, and the files expanded with the "blanks" ready for replacement, but the code crashes quite a bit at character select.Pin Clock said:
If you are doing the character expansion and it forces the 10 skins, then I don't have experience with it yet, but if you are using the default CBliss code, there is a good alternative.
Mewtwo2000's tool here looks like you can specify which slots you want to unlock and use for each character (We already fill every slot, so we didn't experiment with turning slots off), so you do not have to fill every slot yet like in PM, and he gives the option of having the fixed orders for slots. (Having 01=red, 02=green, 03=blue on all characters is nice for consistency, but a pain to deal with initially since it requires a good amount of reordering images so in-match portraits line up correctly, so it can be skipped for a while if wanted.)
Regardless of the method used, keep your eye on Kirby. If you load in an expanded slot Kirby (without previously loading premade slot Kirby), and he is missing the hat files for any opponent he is fighting, it will cause a crash (Big headache since it took us a month to find we missed the G&W and Sheik hats).
Were not Actually using cBliss. Were using a different method, though the effect is the same.
As for bowser, your just going to have to settle for the fact that the game isn't going to be fair in FFA's. We can do our best, but FFA's aren't considerably high on the list in terms of proving imbalance. FFA's are inherently stupid and un-fair, and while bowsers grab I will admit is kinda stupid, as I've experienced this firsthand, the move by itself isn't stupid or even that GREAT of a move in bowsers 1v1 kit. Though it IS a good move, just not OP unlesss it's FFA's
As for bowser, your just going to have to settle for the fact that the game isn't going to be fair in FFA's. We can do our best, but FFA's aren't considerably high on the list in terms of proving imbalance. FFA's are inherently stupid and un-fair, and while bowsers grab I will admit is kinda stupid, as I've experienced this firsthand, the move by itself isn't stupid or even that GREAT of a move in bowsers 1v1 kit. Though it IS a good move, just not OP unlesss it's FFA's
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, anyone can walk up and grab bowser after the grab is completed since there is slight endlag and anyone approaching from above him will get a free hit. Even though both of these options aren't available for a couple of his grabs, the grabs themselves are long enough to react to and you can just simply avoid bowser the instant he grabs someone, because again, there is time before he does another grab. If your foe locks you infront of bowser, that's just how FFAs work. I do FFAs as bowser too, I main him in 1v1s, and nobody that I play in FFAs complains about it cuz either they get around it, or bowser dies shortly after cuz it's a FFA.
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
Something I want to bring up, different groups have different problems. The Mario, Lucario, and ROB complaints weren't seen here, and in turn Bowser doesn't seem to be seen elsewhere.
Sorry about making a big deal out of the Bowser, and talking about more with people here, our main problem player is starting to mix up his game from playing Bowser some on P:M, and they are telling me that when I was away they were starting to effectively team up on him to stop the spam. My complaints stemmed from the matches I've watched before, and the window to attack between grabs is VERY small, and plenty of people were being punished hard for slightly mistiming their attacks against a grab. Now that I've made myself look like an ass on this issue, a question I raise though, what is the reason behind him having said armor after starting the throw? He seemed fine without it before, so I wonder why it was thrown in.
On a similar note and this hasn't fostered as many complaints, a small change for Jiggly, would it be possibly to place a cap on her negative health? This is something that "could" be a problem in FFAs and 1v1s with enough practice. We did some testing on it earlier and in a 4-stock match our Jiggly main hit -1130%. It was a controlled test, so it wouldn't be that bad in a real match, but it does have potential to be heavily abused (See peoples' complaints on Lucario). She was able to survive a Warlock Punch, and sat at 202% after the second.
Ivysaur's Down-B has some complaints going for it. It is well designed, but very hard to punish. Players are suggesting a longer time of Ivy being in a stun state or something if it misses.
Squirtle's side-B is raising complaints on how it can survive any attack on top of being decently fast to activate and move across the stage to deal decent damage. We can't come up with a decent consensus on how it should be dealt with, but feel it needs some sort of change.
When talking about changes I keep saying "we" since I am trying to talk for a decent sized group. We've been having a Minus setup at UCCS in Colorado almost every weekday, with a session at a local McDonalds each Friday, so it's definitely been getting advertised here, but we do also have Project M setups. We treat them as completely different games so it since we've had "I don't want to get into the other mod since I don't want to get serious about 2 similar, but different games at once" comments. We mostly have Minus as a FFA station of a fun party game, then people who want to get into the more technical side of Brawl go to the PM. Both are great games, but the tourney people aren't a big fan of Minus, and we want to let people have fun without requiring them to turn into tourney players.
For anyone who does run it in large groups, a party mode is turn on teams, use 12 stocks, turn off team attacks, and do a 3v1. The 1 player stays at 0%, and the team of 3 are set at 300%. Provides interesting new ways to play, but suggested to ban teams that are all 1 character.
Sorry about making a big deal out of the Bowser, and talking about more with people here, our main problem player is starting to mix up his game from playing Bowser some on P:M, and they are telling me that when I was away they were starting to effectively team up on him to stop the spam. My complaints stemmed from the matches I've watched before, and the window to attack between grabs is VERY small, and plenty of people were being punished hard for slightly mistiming their attacks against a grab. Now that I've made myself look like an ass on this issue, a question I raise though, what is the reason behind him having said armor after starting the throw? He seemed fine without it before, so I wonder why it was thrown in.
On a similar note and this hasn't fostered as many complaints, a small change for Jiggly, would it be possibly to place a cap on her negative health? This is something that "could" be a problem in FFAs and 1v1s with enough practice. We did some testing on it earlier and in a 4-stock match our Jiggly main hit -1130%. It was a controlled test, so it wouldn't be that bad in a real match, but it does have potential to be heavily abused (See peoples' complaints on Lucario). She was able to survive a Warlock Punch, and sat at 202% after the second.
Ivysaur's Down-B has some complaints going for it. It is well designed, but very hard to punish. Players are suggesting a longer time of Ivy being in a stun state or something if it misses.
Squirtle's side-B is raising complaints on how it can survive any attack on top of being decently fast to activate and move across the stage to deal decent damage. We can't come up with a decent consensus on how it should be dealt with, but feel it needs some sort of change.
Pin Clock said:
When talking about changes I keep saying "we" since I am trying to talk for a decent sized group. We've been having a Minus setup at UCCS in Colorado almost every weekday, with a session at a local McDonalds each Friday, so it's definitely been getting advertised here, but we do also have Project M setups. We treat them as completely different games so it since we've had "I don't want to get into the other mod since I don't want to get serious about 2 similar, but different games at once" comments. We mostly have Minus as a FFA station of a fun party game, then people who want to get into the more technical side of Brawl go to the PM. Both are great games, but the tourney people aren't a big fan of Minus, and we want to let people have fun without requiring them to turn into tourney players.
For anyone who does run it in large groups, a party mode is turn on teams, use 12 stocks, turn off team attacks, and do a 3v1. The 1 player stays at 0%, and the team of 3 are set at 300%. Provides interesting new ways to play, but suggested to ban teams that are all 1 character.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Squirts side b is very bad in 1v1s. He can easily be grabbed out of it and you could jump off of him to leave him helpless. As for bowser, don't know. Maybe it was done because the game messes up when the grab fails? Also, his alt up throw doesn't hit characters at high percents. This is seen against rob. Your jiggly main is good. That amount of negative damage is unrealistic. They might have to change it just cuz of him lol.
Rest assured (heh) we're going to do something about negative damage. It was never intended and we're going to get around to fixing it.
You cannot balance a game around FFAs, it's pretty much impossible. That will always be an environment where the hard hitters excel over the technical combo-heavy characters (think how in vBrawl Ike was considered a nooby smash spam character online). In addition, Bowser is a grappler. Grapplers, by design, are built around punishing mistakes of the opponent with powerful grabs and devastating armored moves, but can just as easily be punished for their own mistakes by other players, even moreso with his gigantic hurtboxes. In Free For Alls, however, he is more likely to punish than be punished due to the armor and everyone else not always focusing on Bowser.
Squirtle's SideB is more of an issue of "A move that is balanced for 1v1s is overpowered in a FFA enviroment", which, seeing as the main game is 1v1s, where the move is a non-issue, I sadly don't know if there's much we can do about it without making it overpowered in 1v1s or completely useless.
I highly recommend trying out the technical side of Minus, because as seen from videos of some of our better players, the game's got a pretty high level of technical skill.
You cannot balance a game around FFAs, it's pretty much impossible. That will always be an environment where the hard hitters excel over the technical combo-heavy characters (think how in vBrawl Ike was considered a nooby smash spam character online). In addition, Bowser is a grappler. Grapplers, by design, are built around punishing mistakes of the opponent with powerful grabs and devastating armored moves, but can just as easily be punished for their own mistakes by other players, even moreso with his gigantic hurtboxes. In Free For Alls, however, he is more likely to punish than be punished due to the armor and everyone else not always focusing on Bowser.
Squirtle's SideB is more of an issue of "A move that is balanced for 1v1s is overpowered in a FFA enviroment", which, seeing as the main game is 1v1s, where the move is a non-issue, I sadly don't know if there's much we can do about it without making it overpowered in 1v1s or completely useless.
I highly recommend trying out the technical side of Minus, because as seen from videos of some of our better players, the game's got a pretty high level of technical skill.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Why do the devs seem to like editing vbrawl versions of moves and throwing those in instead of working of the minus versions? While DK's upb takes him higher, the attack itself is vbrawl now. I know this because the initial hit of the move hit harder and the startup for the move had some armor I believe.
Also samus' grab doesn't seem to grab people in the air. Our armored friend really needs some retweaking. The 2.6 version is more ideal than this one. I already went over her in the samus thread here.
Also samus' grab doesn't seem to grab people in the air. Our armored friend really needs some retweaking. The 2.6 version is more ideal than this one. I already went over her in the samus thread here.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Okay, I've done some more luigi and you guys really need to revert the thunderbrand to its original speed. My entire luigi game is f***'d up now. Trust me, the move was MUCH more useful then it was now. It allowed him to pull off better air to ground combos. Now, it's just a combo finisher when hitting people onto the air at low percents. Before, it could be used at any percent. The timing complimented his fireballs and his fall speed and aerial movement in general. Please please PLEASE change it back.
Also, luigi's recovery got some unmentioned buffs. His side b grabs the ledge now and it is wall jump cancelable. His upb also doesn't get caught under edges anymore.
CHANGEBACK THE THUNDERBRAND PLEASE!!!!!!!
Also, luigi's recovery got some unmentioned buffs. His side b grabs the ledge now and it is wall jump cancelable. His upb also doesn't get caught under edges anymore.
CHANGEBACK THE THUNDERBRAND PLEASE!!!!!!!
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
Game messes up when he fails?
Haven't seen any bugs or crashes from him failing with it, and it is safer on a miss than a failed dash grab (Using Z). Now that we've packed up today I can't confirm the timing, but the startup speed on his Nuetral B is about the same if not faster than doing a normal grab? This makes his normal grabs terrible to even consider in most situations regardless of if it is a 1v1 or not. Normal down throw can be good if you want to punish bad rolling... or if you did the alternate grab, down would have them stuck in the ground and just do a smash attack for the kill... or the alternate back throw if your back is closer to the edge... or the alternate up throw for a ceiling kill if the enemy is above ~70%. His normal grabs, from what I've seen, seem pointless to aim for in any situation. I could be VERY wrong as I am not a Bowser main and ours hasn't explored that territory yet, but if it is worse, maybe swap some of the grabs, or make his normal ones have a better use since it has a higher risk with a lower reward (No armor ever, higher lag time, and no movement to make up for a "barely missed"). Bowser's seen big changes in each major name change of Minus, so it's probably been hard to find a good balance for him, and he still has room for tweaking so his whole kit feels good to play as and against.
On the note of unexplained changes for Bowser, anyone know why the canceling of his side-B (if he caught someone in the air) into a pound was removed?
For Squirtle, his side-B seemed pretty good in 1v1s since he could get out of it quickly, and is hard to grab if he starts it off of a jump. The damage is decent and it completely negates damage he takes. Not sure if it is a problem on our side of us needing to learn the proper way to fight it, or if your Squirtle players need to jump more.
(Oh, showing 2 posts since I started this reply now)
I know it can't be balanced around FFA perfectly, but a point I want to bring up is, if it doesn't affect 1v1s, should it be ignored in other cases? I also think 2.6's Bowser was better.
My mentioning of Squirtle goes in both cases. 1v1s he has been beating most of our players currently. There are the few characters that counter him well, but that attack is pretty good when used right since it has nearly no risk as long as the user knows how to get out and they don't start it from the ground.
Haven't seen any bugs or crashes from him failing with it, and it is safer on a miss than a failed dash grab (Using Z). Now that we've packed up today I can't confirm the timing, but the startup speed on his Nuetral B is about the same if not faster than doing a normal grab? This makes his normal grabs terrible to even consider in most situations regardless of if it is a 1v1 or not. Normal down throw can be good if you want to punish bad rolling... or if you did the alternate grab, down would have them stuck in the ground and just do a smash attack for the kill... or the alternate back throw if your back is closer to the edge... or the alternate up throw for a ceiling kill if the enemy is above ~70%. His normal grabs, from what I've seen, seem pointless to aim for in any situation. I could be VERY wrong as I am not a Bowser main and ours hasn't explored that territory yet, but if it is worse, maybe swap some of the grabs, or make his normal ones have a better use since it has a higher risk with a lower reward (No armor ever, higher lag time, and no movement to make up for a "barely missed"). Bowser's seen big changes in each major name change of Minus, so it's probably been hard to find a good balance for him, and he still has room for tweaking so his whole kit feels good to play as and against.
On the note of unexplained changes for Bowser, anyone know why the canceling of his side-B (if he caught someone in the air) into a pound was removed?
For Squirtle, his side-B seemed pretty good in 1v1s since he could get out of it quickly, and is hard to grab if he starts it off of a jump. The damage is decent and it completely negates damage he takes. Not sure if it is a problem on our side of us needing to learn the proper way to fight it, or if your Squirtle players need to jump more.
(Oh, showing 2 posts since I started this reply now)
I know it can't be balanced around FFA perfectly, but a point I want to bring up is, if it doesn't affect 1v1s, should it be ignored in other cases? I also think 2.6's Bowser was better.
My mentioning of Squirtle goes in both cases. 1v1s he has been beating most of our players currently. There are the few characters that counter him well, but that attack is pretty good when used right since it has nearly no risk as long as the user knows how to get out and they don't start it from the ground.
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
I know quite a few of us are terrible at spot dodging (So might be something we need to have some training sessions over), and it's hard to grab him when he is flying at your head. I need to recheck if he bounces or passes through shields, but the main way I've seen the 1v1s go (We still do FFAs mostly, but it DOES turn into 1v1s at the end of each match), he armors through any ground attack and zips away from dodges so he can't be countered (he stays above grab range on most characters), then if the enemy tries to counter by having higher ground, he spams up-smash. If we are missing a clear way to fight him, let us know please. It seems strong to us, but we may just be overlooking a way of playing since we do fall into habits.
I wish I could comment on Firehand/Thunderbrand, but I didn't play enough Mario or Luigi when those changes came out to comment on it for either.
Also, for those working on the CBliss stuff, it might be worth trying out MT2000's tool to see if it is compatible with your method (assuming you are doing it through a code of sorts). Could be handy for turning specific slots on and off or changing the order of skins, unless you do know the codes well enough that you don't need any tool assistance.
I wish I could comment on Firehand/Thunderbrand, but I didn't play enough Mario or Luigi when those changes came out to comment on it for either.
Also, for those working on the CBliss stuff, it might be worth trying out MT2000's tool to see if it is compatible with your method (assuming you are doing it through a code of sorts). Could be handy for turning specific slots on and off or changing the order of skins, unless you do know the codes well enough that you don't need any tool assistance.
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
Toward as in the way he is going (which I believe generally leads to it hitting you since rolling is fairly unsafe), or away from him leading to him being able to repeat it if he wishes? Tomorrow or the day after I'll try to get some experiments going to find a way to deal with it, but it seems odd that a good number of us are having problems with it.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I haven't played 1.01 Luigi much yet, but I like his 1.0 Thunderhand better so far too. Speaking of which, the electric spark graphic effect on that move occasionally stays visible for longer than it should. Not a big deal, but a bit odd.
BTW, would someone mind telling me how to shellshift and do sliding up smashes as Squirtle? Haven't figured it out yet. I keep hearing that Squirtle is good, but I don't know about any of his advanced techniques. I'd like to learn the basics so I can teach a friend of mine who plays Squirtle.
BTW, would someone mind telling me how to shellshift and do sliding up smashes as Squirtle? Haven't figured it out yet. I keep hearing that Squirtle is good, but I don't know about any of his advanced techniques. I'd like to learn the basics so I can teach a friend of mine who plays Squirtle.