Bowser's 4.0bc Matchup Chart

[player_03]

Why do I have to be a master at everything to get any credibility.

Small details can make or break a matchup.

Let's take another look at Yoshi. If you ignore the dash grab, Bowser can run in and beat most of Yoshi's options. But if you don't...


...Bowser has to be on the lookout constantly. Even if Yoshi is standing still halfway across the stage, he can grab Bowser in a quarter-second. And as I mentioned, this grab beats every single one of Bowser's ground attacks.

This single move completely changes the matchup. Instead of running in, powering through Yoshi's defenses, and landing powerful attacks/grabs, Bowser needs to stay on the defensive until Yoshi messes up.

If you try to test the matchup without taking Yoshi's grab into account, your results won't be much use. You talked about how much Yoshi struggles to out-space Bowser, when in reality, Bowser struggles to avoid Yoshi.

This is why I didn't bother making my own list. I haven't played as/against Bowser enough to be confident in most of my assessments. (I only feel confident in this Yoshi-Bowser analysis because Mimsy already confirmed it.)

Though to be fair, your G&W analysis seems about right. I wouldn't personally trust the bacon to stop Bowser, but it would rack up some damage at least, so I'd use it now and then. Also, I'd try to land dtilt -> dair or dtilt -> frying pan because those put Bowser in a worse spot than dtilt -> nair.

Your Ike analysis underestimates Ike's mobility a little bit, and neglects to mention his nair as a combo starter, so I'd say that matchup is about even. Midair Quick Draw -> nair -> fast fall lets Ike slide on the ground with a fair amount of speed and perform any move out of it. If Bowser tries to anticipate Ike landing early, Ike can choose to land later, or even jump out of Quick Draw for extra height.

I posted this so people would fill in the blanks.

And that's what we're trying to do.

Personally, I'm willing to change my opinions if someone comes along and points out some way Bowser counters G&W and/or Ike. In fact, I'm kind of counting on it - I started practicing Bowser at one point, but I definitely don't know all his options.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Wow you guys manged to post a lot in my 2 days without internet...

I think for the most part AGentleStar's list is pretty accurate. I don't really know much about Bowser, but I think his peach MU might be even or worse. RR gets negated by float and he struggles to get though retreating fair. Just a thought.

 

[Mimsy]

Small details can make or break a matchup.

Let's take another look at Yoshi. If you ignore the dash grab, Bowser can run in and beat most of Yoshi's options. But if you don't...


...Bowser has to be on the lookout constantly. Even if Yoshi is standing still halfway across the stage, he can grab Bowser in a quarter-second. And as I mentioned, this grab beats every single one of Bowser's ground attacks.

This single move completely changes the matchup. Instead of running in, powering through Yoshi's defenses, and landing powerful attacks/grabs, Bowser needs to stay on the defensive until Yoshi messes up.

If you try to test the matchup without taking Yoshi's grab into account, your results won't be much use. You talked about how much Yoshi struggles to out-space Bowser, when in reality, Bowser struggles to avoid Yoshi.

This is why I didn't bother making my own list. I haven't played as/against Bowser enough to be confident in most of my assessments. (I only feel confident in this Yoshi-Bowser analysis because Mimsy already confirmed it.)

Sorry to come off as harsh GentleStar, I guess I don't know how to explain the sheik or yoshi MU without seeming like just telling you you're wrong. My suggestion is to listen to player_3, me, and ENB because we're only giving the insight in the characters we know. I don't have the time to have a week long cordial both sides argument about yoshi and enb doesn't with sheik. We can just tell you that, if youre actually looking for better player's opinions and you're actually opened to change your MU, then do it. I didn't tell you the whole MU list sucked, or you are trash, I saw one character whom I may have a higher expertise with and verified you. Perhaps in a frank manner.

 

[EpicNonBread]

I know how to play every character proficiently. I've played every character since Brawl, up to Project M, and now in Minus. I can, at the very least, replicate what other players can do from watching them on netplay or from experimenting by myself.

This statement is hilarious and opinionated.

I posted this in the hopes of getting more experienced players to provide their own strategies on how they fight Bowser or as Bowser. I'm not scrapping the entire project because I needed to have 30 different advisors looking over my shoulder telling me how to make the list.

No one told you to scrap the entire project. You are receiving feedback from the people who actually do play these characters proficiently. If you are mistaking criticism for babysitting, you probably shouldn't be submitting your work publicly and asking for feedback.

I am also very confused. Are two separate humans playing in that test video of Sheik vs Bowser's armor? If that is another minus player, then again, why are you running through tests of yourself versus CPUs rather than playing that second player there? If I am wrong then disregard I suppose.

I hope you and YBB are not the same person. If you are, you can just say you are referring to yourself. You don't need to make up an alias. If not, disregard this spoiler.

This statement is hilarious and stupid.

think they might be able to perform chaingrab combos, but I haven’t been able to do anything more than dthrow – regrab chains

If you haven't found their Jab Locking technique and other grab/throw follow ups, then you are not a proficient Ice Climbers.

 

[EpicNonBread]

Netplay isn't accurate.

No, netplay is accurate. Your connection is bad and you don't have local players.

Lovely wording there, bud. It's not like every official Brawl Minus Tournament is mostly Lucarios and Falcos anyway. It's totally different from the slew of Bowsers at Smash West. No, This was needed to get a diverse amount of playstyles for one particular character. Keep in mind, AZ wasn't used that much because they were playing with the previous version of Minus at the time. It's not that they were the definitive Bowser's, but more so that they were playing locally. We have dozens of people enter these official minus tourneys and only 8ish people in the community get top 8. Not only that, we seldom see fights between unrecognized players. It's always Ludacario, Mimsy, Longbottom, Joeybeta and Dusk. Luda is the only player I've seen play Bowser in tournament.

You are seriously, seriously generalizing the Minus discord community. You're neglecting a handful of new good skilled players who have just recently entered the scenes and are placing and beating the players you mentioned, including myself, Young Boy Bread, Zonnthegreat, TEEJ, Niagara, Periwinkle, and so many others. Not to mention that there are others that might not necessarily new but are still incredibly solid players of their characters such as Fantasy Dino and SonicBrawler.

Lovely wording there, bud.

Was this even necessary?

I've committed myself to learning every character when brawl was first released. I've done this for Project M and to some degree Minus.

Why do I have to be a master at everything to get any credibility. I realize I don't know EVERYTHING there is to know about every character.

You clearly have not committed enough.

I can understand why you would think I have "no place in this argument" because I haven't won a tourney. Even if I am a very skilled player (which I can't be so sure that I am anymore), I can't get past lag on netplay, lowering my morale and focus. I'm not in the mood to argue this every day. I don't believe in the slightest that Sheik has an advantage. He may get an upper hand on Bowser, but from the start he has so little killing power that it makes me wish for a buff. I don't want Sheik to be worse than Bowser, but when you Aquas vs Ludacario in Super Comfort Bros #19 and how much harder Aquas has to fight just to do what Bowser can do so easily, I don't see it being any other way. Maybe it's a moderate disadvantage.

This is actually just ridiculous. I want to say it's probably a safe assumption that Ludacario is the best Bowser and it is undeniable that YBB at the moment is the best Sheik. Go ahead and ask both of them for their thoughts on the MU and then re-evaluate your MU Chart.

 

[player_03]

No, netplay is accurate. Your connection is bad and you don't have local players.

AGentleStar's point was that since netplay adds delay, you can't quite perform as well as you can locally. Therefore, netplay doesn't accurately represent the best possible play. (However, it doesn't follow that Smash West and AZPM represent higher-level play.)

This is especially bad when trying to B-reverse Ike's Quick Draw. To pull this off, you have to follow these steps:

1. Quick Draw to the right in midair.
   
2. Hold the control stick right.
3. Press B again to start another Quick Draw.
4. Stop holding the control stick to the right.
5. Press the control stick left. This must happen within four frames of step 3.

(Obviously you can also mirror the inputs, but I want to keep it simple.)

This can fail in four different ways, depending on when there's lag:

• You can end up Quick Drawing to the right (because step 4 was delayed by at least four frames). It's usually possible to recover from this.
• You can end up charging Eruption while moving right (because step 3 and step 4 came through on the same frame, and step 5 was delayed by at least four frames). Unless you land onstage, you almost certainly won't recover from this.
  
• You can end up charging Eruption while moving left (because step 3 and step 4 came through on the same frame, and step 5 came through within four frames). This puts you safely back onstage, allowing you to cancel Eruption.
• You can end up charging a leftwards Quick Draw while moving right (because steps 3-5 came through on the same frame). This puts you in a slightly worse spot than if you'd gotten the B-reverse, but it isn't that bad.

B-reversing brings Ike's mobility to another level. It can be done reliably locally, but if you try to use it on netplay, you risk killing yourself.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Should I make an updated MU with the new feedback or wait a bit?

Also ENB you could try being a bit more polite with your criticism

 

[EpicNonBread]

AGentleStar's point was that since netplay adds delay, you can't quite perform as well as you can locally.

I understand, but with an alright connection, netplay very closely resembles local play outside of small lag inteferance which in my experience has very little inpact on matches. I should probably go ahead and rephrase saying that netplay is MOSTLY accurate (assuming you're playing with a good connection).

Also ENB you could try being a bit more polite with your criticism

AGentleStar really needs to understand that he does not have as much character knowledge on Minus as he thinks he does. The Sheik/Bowser MU discussion is showing that he is very inclined to not accepting what is considered a pretty overall agreed MU by everyone else as it goes against his own opinions. If someone is going to be doing a MU chart they need to be a lot more open to other players' MU experiences, and they need to be a lot more aware of the current scene, as it appears he has absolutely no idea who Young Boy Bread is and thinks the meta still revolves around Falco and Lucario.

 

[Mimsy]

I understand, but with an alright connection, netplay very closely resembles local play outside of small lag inteferance which in my experience has very little inpact on matches. I should probably go ahead and rephrase saying that netplay is MOSTLY accurate (assuming you're playing with a good connection).



AGentleStar really needs to understand that he does not have as much character knowledge on Minus as he thinks he does. The Sheik/Bowser MU discussion is showing that he is very inclined to not accepting what is considered a pretty overall agreed MU by everyone else as it goes against his own opinions. If someone is going to be doing a MU chart they need to be a lot more open to other players' MU experiences, and they need to be a lot more aware of the current scene, as it appears he has absolutely no idea who Young Boy Bread is and thinks the meta still revolves around Falco and Lucario.

When playing netplay with good computers and a stable fast connection, it is exactly like local. I don't know how laggy y'all have it when it comes to netplay, but the only hinderence that may occur on the slightest is, falco's shorten has to be inputted on frame 12 istead of 13 for buffer. Netplay is the best way to understand meta, I think BC can attest, that the wifi meta and netplay meta are different.

I like ENB being blunt, easier to sort through the bs.

 

[Mimsy]

I think a lot of us could agree that this MU list is probably going no where, but we have a tier council that is working on proper placement of all the characters and their MU discussions. Let's all just chill for now and play some minus boys.