Current Brawl Minus Version: 4.2Current Brawl Zeus Version: BMZ+ 1.3
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Discussion in 'Bowser' started by Kymaera K1ng, Jan 1, 2017.
This thread is dedicated to creating a matchup chart for Bowser, and eventually every character.
Loses to every character except Ganondorf. Next matchup chart.
:^) (not a serious post)
Unless he has armor in even more places than I realized, he definitely loses to the zoning characters like Link, Falco, Toon Link, and Samus (which is traditionally how a fighting game triangle goes - zoners lose to rush down, rush down loses to grapplers, grapplers lose to zoners [although Smash seems to favor rush down because they often have ways to space outside of grabs and escape pressure better]. He also likely loses to very fast characters since he is a big target they can run circles around (Fox, Captain Falcon, Sonic, etc.). I don't actually know of anyone he beats... perhaps Ice Climbers or characters with short range like Pikachu/Kirby?
Bowser matchups are really weird because it feels like the player's skill shows through more than Bowser's weaknesses and strengths when a player is playing. Also Bowser can deal with Falco and TL because their projectiles are armoured through with his dash.
Personally I feel his worst MUs are: Ganondorf, Squirtle, and Pichu. I also feel like Peach, Puff, Kirby, GnW, and Mario are rough MUs as well. I feel like he has a losing MU to over half the cast.
Bowser has Super Armor on the following:
• Royal Rampage (grounded, aerial pile driver)
• All RR throws
Bowser has Heavy Armor on the following:
• Dash Attack
• Royal Rampage (grab state)
• All RR throws
• Forward Smash
• Up Air
• Down Air
• All Grabs and Throws (not pummels)
Tested against Falco due to his separate hitstun moves. Bowser can absorb Falco's lasers, jab combo, and tilts. More testing needs to be done. I'll edit this post ASAP.
Edit 1: Bowser's crouch armor was used to test the following. I am unaware of how to test how much armor each move has. Bowser can absorb Falco's Dash attack, all of his specials, and forward air, oddly enough.
We also need to base our decisions for each character on the current meta. This can include Minus Tournaments, Joeybeta's Tournaments, any personal experiences we've had first hand, etc. It might be counter-productive to discuss character viability based on hypothetical situations. Keep in mind, we can edit these MUs at a future date. This isn't the end all, be all MU.
Royal Rampage is super armor [you can Warlock Punch it and he's... "fine"], and throw armor doesn't really matter in 1v1 except for niche situations that don't affect most matchups [the Ice Climbers matchup is the only real exception, and possibly Snake for his grenades since those are generated frame 1].
But I didn't know he could dash and run to put on some form of armor [and being able to duck and instantly have some crouching armor is nice]. I also thought neutral air had armor [does it not?], and that bair maybe had light armor.
The one actual problem with armor is that it's still grabbable, so it's quite possible that Bowser still loses hard to speedsters from DD grab abuse [Fox/Falcon/Sonic/probably Sheik and others], or having his aerials shieldgrabbed (I have no idea about Bowser's on-shield safety).
All that said, being able to run through (some) projectiles is quite useful - I'd need to see exactly how that works in action, but it probably means his Falco matchup is a lot less awful than I first pictured [but I'd be very surprised if someone said Falco doesn't win it]. If he can run through Samus zair and missiles that could be a real game-changer, but if Samus charge shot pierces it/paralyzes him, it seems like she'd still have a lot of ground vs Bowser.
If those moves happen to have light armor, I've never noticed it because most moves stun Bowser anyway. Maybe if it was Ness' dtilt, but that doesn't seem practical.
Since Royal Rampage doesn't protect Bowser from grabs and doesn't grab airborne opponents, some characters have extremely easy ways to counter it:
I tested these and got mixed results:
So it seems that the longer the charge beam is charged, the easier it is to ignore the heavy armor. Screw Attack and Super Missiles ignore it, while Missiles do not. Bowser's grab doesn't have any armor, so that would leave him open to a Missile.
I found a few Brawl Minus where Bowser is very prominent. The Arizona and Western Australia scene seem to really like Bowser when from what I can tell. Here are the playlists:
Smash West: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_-taoQys4lRp3CsLmbgyNcvHcqquiIEm
Sorry I can't go into specifics. I'm pretty busy today. I just wanna not that Smash West's VODs have a lot more bowsers playing. Bare in mind that AZPM are playing 4.0b at the time of its recording.
RR doesn't grab airborne opponents?
Not only did I never know that, but it probably makes some of his matchups substantially worse [notably Peach, who can probably ground float on reaction to avoid it while still camping him out].
an aerial RR (the spinning one) can grab them. It would be unfair for Bowser to just grab anyone in front of him. It's a timing thing. You use RR when your opponent is in a tech chase situation or during cooldown. If the opponent really likes the air, bait them into a aerial RR, side b, or in most cases fair (spacing) or dair. Spamming RR won't do anything but slow bowser down.
In other words, don't use RR in neutral.
@anybody else I forgot
Something I would like to propose to everyone in this discussion. We should each make our own MU chart for Bowser. We will reconvene on the 7th (Saturday) at 1pmPST/4pmEST with our findings. I'm giving some time so that we can each make our decisions carefully and in an organized manner. I've already done Mario through Peach. When we meet up again, make sure to have some idea of why you think the MU is the way it is against each character.
We should base the MU scale on this:
Spoiler: MU scale
This is the scale used for many Smash MUs. Though, in this case, we can just say +,-, ++, - -, and so on for abbreviation. We can then average their scores overall so we can get something like this:
Spoiler: Bowser MU
I chose to have the time be before Minus Chronicles 1 in case anyone is entering, though we can change the time and date if needed. Tell me what you guys think.
Edit 1: For reference, Minus Chronicles 1 starts at 3pmPST/6pmEST.
I don't actually know enough about Bowser to make one of these, but I think that's a good idea for people who do [like I have no idea how Bowser does vs FE, how he does vs Pit, etc... too many holes in what I know about him to make a decent chart].
Everyone loses to Dorf, so that's one less character to worry about.
I feel like i know a good bit about fighting a good Bowser in his current meta (since Ludacario mains him and i've played more smash with him than our wii's can handle), but don't want to make a match up chart, because it will seem biased. Ludacario thinks Bowser is the worst character in the game, but I think he's actually good. Everytime I try to make a point about how long he lives, his super armor, command grabs, or autocombos that have the same knockback for follow-up whether the opponet be at 999% or 0% I get told to, "git gud". And there is no way y'all can convince Ludacario that he is anything above bottom tier, i've tried.
I am fine with Bowser being put at the bottom of a tier list out of trust for the community's experiences, however, I will continue to believe on a Tier List labeled S to D, he belongs no less than B tier based on my personal experience fighting the best Bowser in the game's current form 4.0 bc.
Mimsy Ludacario @everyone else
Well this isn't a matter of personal bias. We're discussing the MUs for Bowser, averaging them up, and then moving on to the next character. Tier lists will come later. We are not having any blindly dismissive comments about a character or how someone plays a character. It stifles honest debate and aiming said comments towards a player does nothing but lower their morale. It doesn't improve the game and it doesn't make either person better at it. I have my preferences towards characters, namely Meta Knight and Captain Falcon, but I choose to put my biases away for the sake of analyzing the meta as is. Even then, I suggested that we make our own MUs and then meet up again to see what we agree on because we do have biases. Discussing with other people will bring to light some factors or situations that we may not have thought of on our own. It prevents things from becoming one-sided.
I understand why salt happens and I realize it is something that can't be avoided. Not every comment is an attack on one's being, their playstyle or game preference. Having a thick skin is something that I myself had to learn. But this "git gud" mindset shouldn't stop the conversation from going a certain way because one or two people are afraid to acknowledge a weakness in their character. The game isn't set in stone. The meta changes and characters move up and down in tiers. Right now, there needs to be some sort of foundation in order to make competitive minus work. Being stubborn won't help anyone. If anyone here feels that they can't, at the very least, listen to why someone thinks the MU should be a certain way, then I feel this isn't the thread for you.
Can't Falco just SHDL Bowser if he misses a tech for an infinite? I don't play Bowser or Falco - nor do I know anyone that does - but in my experience, Falco can infinite Bowser like this.
Yeah, and if he switches sides he can actually do it forever
1) I truly believe without bias, that Bowser has much better matchups then those proposed in this thread.
2) You are probably right that i need thicker skin/think some comments are attacks on my playstyle and or being, that is why i began with "i don't really wanna make one" (and it's not like i jumped in here and posted, you tagged me in the previous message asking for a MU chart). My initial post was more of a disclaimer than a MU suggestion.
3) The only reason I mentioned Luda in the first place was because skill comes before tier lists/matchup charts and he is by far, the best Bowser. Ludas my bff, and were always chill. I'm just telling y'all no one wants to explore that Bowser might be better than we think.
Lol, sorry for the NaCl guys
Well I made my MU chart. It's just a start, and I'm really open to any comments and changes. Here it is:
Not sure about the placement of Wolf, Sonic, and Ness. Zelda might be worse, but I personally haven't played any really stellar Zeldas.
I think wolf should be at least minus one, not to sure about sonic or ness. On paper, it seems like Zelda would be horrible for Bowser, but we haven't really seen that matchup ever so not too sure
Dedede can zone out Bowser all day and Waddle-Doo's beam can trap an armored Bowser in hitlag allowing D3 to easily get away/build up damage/set up a punish. Bowser's uSmash is a good tool that gets rid of close by waddles.
Bowser's armor can get past Zelda's ranged moves, but when he is not in armor he is asking to be comboed by Zelda all day. Bonus points to moves like bAir that can hit Bowser with both hitboxes in one go.
Lol, It's fine, dude. I wasn't aiming anything at you or Luda specifically. I felt that some ground rules were needed so that the discussion doesn't devolve into angrily agreeing to disagree.