Bowser's 4.0bc Matchup Chart

Discussion in 'Bowser' started by Kymaera K1ng, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    I'm trying to be as accurate as I can with my placements, so I haven't gotten past Waluigi at the time of me typing this. I'll be sure to be done once Saturday rolls around, but I can only say so much as of now. So far, Bowser has a fantastic matchup against Waluigi. Mostly because of how slow and clunky Waluigi's moves are. It's not unloseable, but Bowser certainly has an easier time beating Wah. I realize the CPU Waluigi is unable to recover, so most of my research was based on playing Waluigi myself. His aerial down specials are all effectively useless due to none of them killing at reasonable percentages. The tekken-esque combos with Down special are high risk, low reward moves. mostly due to them having a strict timing. His best moves are dair, dthrow, and down smash, which can slide on the ground. I'll go into more detail later, but I feel that Bowser has a really easy time beating Wah. :nesmk:
     
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  2. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    I have to apologize ahead of time. I am nearly done with the full MU chart for Bowser. I have explanations for every choice. Unfortunately, I'm gonna need until Sunday to show them off. I hope this doesn't inconvenience anybody who was expecting any sort of meeting, but I don't think anyone is gonna be too bothered by this to begin with. Holy shit. I'm tired. I can't even type in understandable english lol. :nesmk:
     
  3. Kymaera K1ng

    Kymaera K1ng A PMCC player

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    that's fine, mine will be done Sunday as well due to new England snow
     
  4. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Bit of advice: When doing MU analysis, always look for footage of the character being played since that is useful information
     
  5. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  6. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    AGentleStar's Bowser Matchup Chart (4.0BC)

    Hello there, everyone! I sincerely apologize for taking longer than I was supposed to with this MU. I needed to retype up my notes and double-check my wording. So here's how the chart works. Using the Brawl Minus Tier List Creator, I assembled a MU chart ordered as follows:

    • Mirror Match
    • Unwinnable
    • Strong Disadvantage
    • Moderate Disadvantage
    • Slight Disadvantage
    • Even Matchup
    • Slight Advantage
    • Moderate Advantage
    • Strong Advantage
    • Unloseable
    The MU score is numbered so that a slight advantage is +1, a moderate disadvantage is -2, an even matchup is 0, and so on. I added up all of the matchups and then averaged the score to get the Matchup Average. The highest a character can get is a +3 and the lowest is a -3. The average then gets a MU symbol that sums up their placing in the MU chart.

    If you would like to make any alterations to the chart based on your findings, you are free to edit it and post you're own chart in the thread. Please provide an explanation for any placement changes. The chart isn't based on any specific numbering. Any input on the exact matchup percentage, whether it is positive or negative, for a specific character would be greatly appreciated.

    Edit: I could not figure out a way to post an editable version of the chart. I can only provide pictures for reference. Sorry for the inconvenience.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Explanations:

    This section is dedicated to explaining my thoughts on every character's placement.

    I did a test playthrough where I played as Bowser against a level 9 CPU with 4 stocks on Battlefield. I also played the opposite character against Bowser and did my best to analyze how easy or difficult it was to approach, space, combo, recover, bait, defend, punish, and KO. Not everything was based on the match itself. Some of my findings were based on what a competent player, as Bowser or otherwise, would try to play against me. Sometimes, matches were played on Final Destination or Smashville to get a better idea of how each character would change their playstyle. Whenever I could, I would examine match footage of Bowser against other characters. Special shoutouts to azprojectmelee and Smash West for their Brawl Minus Local Tournaments that had a ton of Bowser players. Really made things easier.

    Each character has the corresponding advantage symbol next to them for MU chart reference.

    Fair warning: I’m not a thesaurus, so I’m sorry if you get sick of reading the words “easily,” “tricky,” “mobility,” “effective,” and so on.

    And just so we are on the same page, I'm gonna use some abbreviations for specific key terms.
    RR – Royal Rampage

    SH – Short hop

    DA – Dash attack

    Up/Down/Left/Right B – Specials

    Utilt – Up tilt/strong attack

    Ftilt – Forward tilt/strong attack

    · FtiltU – Forward tilt angled upwards (Unused)

    · FtiltD – Forward tilt angled downwards (Unused)

    Dtilt – Down tilt/strong attack

    fSmash – Forward Smash

    dSmash – Down Smash

    uSmash – UP Smash

    Dair – Down aerial

    Uair – Up aerial

    Fair – Forward aerial

    Bair – Back aerial

    Nair – Neutral aerial

    OoS – Out of Shield

    While Bowser may be able to power through some of Mario’s moves, Mario has a lot more aerial mobility and mix-ups with his firebrand, metal cap, F.L.U.U.D., and double jump punch. A good setup from Bowser can have Mario KOed in a matter of seconds, but M’s good spacing along with more options for getting back in stage makes the MU tilt towards him.
    Bowser can counter a lot of Luigi’s ground movement with up smash, as it trip nearby opponents, allowing him to RR or grab or SH dair, etc. RR is only good before your opponent can roll away, i.e. a tech chase situation. Both have really good ways of edge guarding the other. Luigi has his downward moving fireballs and d taunt. Bowser can intercept L’s movement and recovery with relative ease using Fair, dair, bair and down b. Both KO the other easily. Bowser may have armor and many edgeguarding options, Luigi has better mobility.
    While peach has a great kit with the now iconic ability to weave her way through her opponent, spacing her attacks, and many cancelable moves, Bowser has much more killing power and can do it quickly. His whirling fortress ledge grab, bair and fair are amazing edge guarding tools to use. Bowz has to play aggressive and move quickly to keep peach on the defensive. Peach will have to play the patient game to win. One misstep could cost a lot of percentage or even a stock. However, peach’s aerial spacing is so good, it is possible to win by camping with turnips and baiting. I would also help to fight Bowz on a big stage with fewer platforms and large blastzones. Bowser works best by utilizing platforms for movement. Less platforms means it’s a little more difficult for Bowser to reach Peach.
    Same character. Anything you're opponent can do, you can also do.
    I’m still debating on whether or not Bowser has a good matchup or a GREAT matchup with Yoshi. While Yoshi may have the same, if not better, mobility as peach, he doesn’t have any effective normals and aerials. I may not be a Pro Yoshi or Peach player, but at least with Peach I could manage to space out my opponent. Yoshi can’t stay in the air for very long. He has his two flutter jumps, but once those are gone, his vertical recovery goes with it. Bowser’s MU isn’t a gimme as Yoshi does have pretty good spacing capabilities…I guess.
    Both can Uair chain really well. Both specialize in grab combos. I only think Bowser has the advantage because he has many armored moves, he can approach more safely with his dair and dash [attack]. However, DK does have his alt down B (barrel throw), more burying moves (2 moves to Bowser’s 1) and some armored moves as well. I wanna say Bowser’s moves have more priority, but I’m not sure. If DK were edge-guarding with fair, bowz fair is much faster and could knock DK away. DK’s Uair is faster. Bowser’s up b is faster, but DK has armor on up b. Everything else is pretty much even.
    Bowser’s able to get in some quick KO’s on Diddy. RR down throw – up tilt – uair, uair is a very effective combo. Even if he was to act after the hitstun and dair, Bowser has heavy armor on uair. Diddy’s jab 1 and 2 have enough hitstun to keep Bowser unable to do anything. Diddy has better mobility overall. Bowser’s massive hurtbox makes it really easy for Diddy to trip him up with bananas, especially in a multiplatform stage like Bf. Peanuts are not very effective due to how weak they hit Bowser and his armor. But this isn’t a detriment as Diddy’s ability to summon many bananas at once gives diddy great stage control and grants him easy combos. Only downside to this is getting the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. bananas has a lot of startup and endlag.
    Wario has fantastic aerial mobility. His up b, side b, and down b give him good recovery options. Wario’s only options for approaching are his dash attack (waft variant) and bair (waft variant). And by “only options,” I mean best options because he doesn’t need much else. Nair is semi-useful and Fair is nearly useless due to its unremarkable range, power and bowser’s quick ability to activate heavy armor and having a disjointed Fair. However, Wario’s Bair and DA are more than enough to start a combo. When in the offensive, W can string Fairs, edge-guard with bairs, and KO with up B like nothing else. His recovery options make him hard to edgeguard unless he’s higher in altitude than Bowser. Wario can’t reach Bowser at a high altitude for a KO. His up b is only a KO move on the sides of startup and hitting Bowser from the top of up b will only leave Wario in special fall and open to a punish from Bowser’s dair or Down b.
    Waluigi is a very sluggish character in nearly every aspect. His most effective moves against Bowser have a ton of endlag. He can spam down smash as an approach “option,” but it’s not exactly safe. Bair, Nair and Fair can be used for spacing, especially Bair b/c it is disjointed. Besides that, many of his moves are hard to pull off with very little reward. Bowser can be easily comboed, but that’s assuming he gets in an undesirable position to begin with. Wah’s Down B – A A A can extend the spinning kick, tripping Bowser each time. Wah can fair, nair, and/or uair chain into an up b KO. It’s pretty effective, but difficult to setup. I realize most of this has been applied to Wah, but what can I say about Bowser? Anything he’s good at, he EXCELS at against Wah. Approach with dair, space with fair or bair, etc. The only thing to worry about is Waluigi’s down smash spam and the super armor of his side b.
    Bowser is good at spacing Link, but is bad against Link’s spacing, if that makes any sense. Link has great projectiles to use against Bowser, Bowser has armor in his crouch. Bowser can be comboed easily, but Link can be KOed easily. Both can edge guard the other really well.
    Getting near Zelda is very difficult. Her fair, bair, side b, jab, dtilt….pretty much all of her normal have an extra hitbox a set distance away from her. Every distance is different and some of them can be angled. Her ability to teleport if the second hitbox connects gives her a very safe option to approach. On the up side, Bowser can punish her teleport if he shields it and grabs OoS. Zelda can KO Bowser just as easily as Bowser himself.
    Sheik is a very weak hitting character. Bowser’s armor can withstand Sheik’s fSmash, dSmash, neutral b, jab combo, bair, dair, get up attack (grounded), dtilt, ftilt, and up tilt. If Bowser lets up his armor, Sheik will punish it. Sheik is also still able to grab, so he can’t armor through that.
    Super Heavyweight vs. Super Heavyweight. Both have good armor moves and hit really hard. Both can utilize grab combos and can KO with them.
    Tink can bring out a lot of projectiles to pressure Bowser into approaching. His sword swings and boomerang have a lot more hitstun on Bowser. His aerials can start some 5-6 hit combos. However, arrow traps don’t hinder bowser too much due to the armor.
    Samus needs to be fixed.... Jesus. *sigh* Anyway, Samus can play keep away with her missiles, super missiles, charge beam, and power bombs. However, the startup is so slow and Samus moves slow enough for her actions to become really predictable.
    The stun moves from samus are effective when they hit Bowser…while he’s not in armor. Bowser isn’t comboed as easily. ZSS is lightweight, so KOing her shouldn’t be a problem. ZSS has great mobility, but her tether up b/side b won’t work if Bowser is grabbing the ledge. I don’t have a lot of notes on this. There’s not much to say since the advantage isn’t big.
    Ness can hit hard and has projectiles that can effectively keep Bowser at bay. Bowser has the hardest time combating Ness’ multi-PSIning. (After looking at my notes, I can conclude that this sentence has no bearing on the topic. But hey! He can do it…I guess?). Ness’ recovery is easily intercepted, especially with his disjointed fair.
    Lucas’ moves feel ineffective against Bowser. From my experience, long range moves, namely PK Fire, are easily dodged despite being able to rapid fire them. Lucas performs better than Ness in damage output and recovery, but lacks strong killing moves besides his predictable USmash. I think Lucas has a lot of potential. Hopefully, I am proven wrong, but with the meta as is, there are very few Lucas’ in competitive play, let alone well performing ones.
    Pikachu has great maneuverability against bowz armor, but tends to fall victim to one of Bowser’s many command grabs. This wouldn’t be such an issue, though, if Pikachu got a buff EVER! :mad:
    Jiggs has fantastic aerial mobility. Her bair is amazing for spacing out Bowser and that is the only move she could have and she would still win. The End….I kid. Anyways, she has a lot of utility with neutral b, her up b (sing), and the critical hit of side b (pound). That coupled with her amazing offstage edgeguarding and gimping makes her a tricky MU for bowz. However, she’s really light and can be KOed as low as the 70% range.
    Bowser surprisingly isn’t hopelessly outmatched by Pichu as you might think. The electric moves are easily eaten by Bowser’s heavy armor, minus the smash moves or powerful alt special attacks. Typically, the most effective moves against Bowser are the slower ones, making it pretty predictable, but still difficult.
    Mew2's ability to up b twice along with having very high jumps allows for him to combo with ease. However, Bowz quick short range movement and massive hitboxes forces Mew2 to be less aggressive and more cautious. I get the feeling that this may be me sucking at Mewtwo. Oh well, can’t be good at them all, I suppose.
    Squirt dances around Bowser like it’s nothing. He’s small and his nair, fair, bair, and ftilt make him difficult to approach. He has full maneuverability while charging neutral b (water gun) and if bowser gets too close, the water either freezes him or damages/pushes him, doing chip damage in a sense. Squirtle doesn’t have any heavy hitting moves per se, but the damage will rack up and put Bowser high into KO percent’s.
    Ivy has some sluggish moves, namely her up smash. Missing Bowser with the bulb on uair, dair, or upsmash inflicts very little percent. Up Smash stuns, but it’s not long enough to get a combo out of it at low percents. Dair induces sleep (if the bulb hits a grounded opponent), but….it sucks. From my experience, the opponent will just ignore it by jumping out. Uair gives you a flower. Aww~ isn’t that cute~! Just have to worry about fair and bair spacing. It can punish poor movement, leading to nair chains, uptilts and an uair/up b KO, the former of which is really powerful at higher percents.
    Char has a better recovery and aerial movement, but not as good ground movement as Bowser. Both can space each other out with their disjointed fairs. Bowser has fantastic conversions, while Charizard has great setups utilizing his down special (rock smash).
    SO. MANY. DISJOINTS! The edge is not that safe anymore. Lucario’s fsmash and neutral b (aura sphere) hits under the ledge. His up b (extreme speed) makes him move across the screen really fast (no duh, it’s in the name). Bowser needs to bring his A game.
    Kirby is lightweight and has awkward movement. Side b (hammer swing) struggles to hit on the ground and especially in the air. Not much matchup knowledge. Very few Kirby players in the meta, but as it stands, Kirby is a little disadvantaged, but not outmatched.
    The waddle Dees (side b) are ineffective against a heavyweight character like Bowser. Waddle doo beam is the best combo starter, though bowz should be wary of jumping waddle dees. Gordos are still great KO moves. Dedede has to rely on normal and aerials to get combos started. Problem is they are slow except nair and bair.
    Bowser must rely on his heavy and super armor moves, command grabs and a lot of patience for mk. I tried rationalizing whether this was merely a moderate disadvantage, but when MK can do things like carry bowser to the top blastzone at low percents, I figured this was the most appropriate. Granted, Bowser can get some sick edgeguards through good reads and having MK above him makes uair a safe option. It’s MKs speed, amazing combo game and having one of the best recoveries in the game that makes this MU a challenge.
    I dunno if it’s because Fox’s moves are low priority or something, but most of what fox can do loses to Bowser’s armor. Jab and waveshining can lock Bowser flat on the ground temporarily. Anything else in terms of approaching is just begging Bowser to give Fox a flaming pile driver to hell. I want to say most of this is due to my inexperience and lack of skill with Fox. While playing Bowser, fighting Fox was not as stressful as it was easier to approach Fox.
    I’m seriously reconsidering whether or not this matchup is winnable. Falco can create a wall of lasers which keeps Bowser from approaching directly…or at all. If bowser doesn’t tech the ground, Falco can lock him on the ground flopping like a fish indefinitely. And no, I don’t mean, it’ll push him to the edge, I mean FOREVER. Don’t believe me? See for yourself

    Had I not messed that up, who knows how long that could have gone for. Falco’s dair is autocancelable from a short hop, which doesn’t sound like much, but a 10 hit dair combo (not teched, I suppose) plus the dair spiking every time adds up. Down b (kicking the reflector) is the automatic spacing tool. His 3 midair jumps allow falco to combo bowz like melee. I’ve said my piece.
    Wolf has some great Mixups in his arsenal. He’s efficient at chaining together multiple aerials. I noticed that he’s a fast faller, so he’s more prone to RR combos. This balance of “combo or be comboed” is only tilted towards wolf due to his more varied movement options like side b cancel and overall solid combo game with his shine and aerials.
    Marth plays more like his melee version than Fox. He’s focuses more on poking and spacing out his opponent; opting for a grab or quick punish of some sort. His flying shield breaker (neutral b) gives him a great approach matching that of Bowser’s. The game here is all about spacing and waiting for an opening. Both are simple. Both have to worry about their opponents Brawl Minus quirks.
    Roy’s MU is similar to Marth. However, Roy’s jab, ftilt, and DA have great reach and makes it a little trickier for Bowz to approach. The jab in particular can pull bowz or any opponent if the tip hits first, allowing for a grab (mixup) or another jab. Other than that, it plays like a Bowser vs. Marth match.
    Unlike Marth and Roy, Ike has a different movement style to them. He’s slow on the ground, so he has to side b cancel a lot on the ground and air, but his options are narrow and his movement feels stiff. Fair spaces well with its long range and windbox. Bowser is susceptible to Ike’s dair spike since his hurt box is so big.
    This one was really difficult to pinpoint. C.Falc. is insanely fast and hits hard to boot. The tipping point for me was that Bowser’s approach is to use his command grabs like RR and side b. C.Falc. can’t just dash in and nair like other characters.
    Tangent alert: I fucking hate GnW. His lingering hitboxes and unpunishable frame data makes him a piece of shit character. But I said I’d be fair, so here’s my take on the MU. G&W’s chef shotgun, when spammed gives Bowser limited options for getting close. Bowz is very susceptible to judge chaining. Fair and Bair space Bowser out extremely well. Dair to hard press nair is the bread-and-butter combo. G&W has more options overall with his ability to change the properties of moves like dair, uair, nair and fSmash. However, g&w is really light and can be KOed early. He doesn’t have a great vertical recovery. If G&W is open, Bowser approaching with a dair is the go-to option.
    The IC’s normals don’t have much Knockback at low percents, which you’d think is a no-brainer, but it’s especially problematic here when trying to combo Bowser. Their desyncing abilities can create an endless stream of ice blocks, but unless you’re on FD, Bowser can find work arounds. I think they might be able to perform chaingrab combos, but I haven’t been able to do anything more than dthrow – regrab chains. If bows is below them, uair chains can KO of the top at lower high percents. From my test playthroughs, CPU Bowser got as high as 270% before I could KO him. I think this was mainly due the difficulty in following Bowser’s DI in the air. Bowser’s armor eats most of IC’s normals.
    Robert’s side b cancel [into an aerial], neutral b, down b make it really easy to approach Bowser or camp. His up b can help continue combos, essentially carrying Bowser to the blastzone, something that Bowser can’t always do. Rob’s maneuverability on stage it’s more varied, namely his instant wavedash forward via dair. This makes Bowser struggle to read Rob’s intentions. Something odd I noticed from my test playthroughs is Rob isn’t buried by bowz side b. Every time I play R.O.B., something weird and glitchy happens. Looking back at my notes, R.O.B. is a borderline strong disadvantage for Bowser. I suppose his large hurtbox makes him more susceptible to command grabs.
    Pit’s uncanny ability to control the direction of his light arrows allows him to hit Bowser from ANYWHERE! Aiming them upwards creates slow arrows that can act as setups. Many of his moves are multi-hit and therefore don’t hit hard, so Bowser’s crouching in neutral isn’t as risky. All of Pit’s taunts are deadly mixups, side b and up b can continue combos reliably, and had maneuverability rivaling that of Rob’s.
    Olimar has terrible defense options against Bowser. He needs to micromanage his pikmin and plan his attack accordingly because unlike Olimar’s other matchups, simply flinging all status ailing pikmin at Bowz will just make him shake them off or flat out ignore them with super/heavy armor. His multi-hit nair, uair, and uptilt are good combo moves and dtilt and ftilt are good for short, quick movement and continuing combos. Down b and side b are good for racking up damage, but they’re not efficient for setting up a stock loss for Bowser.
    There was only so much that I could do as Snake. I cannot hope to replicate the technical finesse that is fantasyDinosaur 's Snake. I am not worthy of attempting to replicate a playstyle of his caliber, but I must for the sake of the meta. Snake has a similar defensive playstyle to Olimar. However, unlike Olimar, Snake has some very heavy-hitting moves. He has an assortment of traps such as neutral b, alt neutral b (if two grenades are out, Snake pulls out a motion sensor bomb), down b, down smash, and even side taunt (grenade). Bowser struggles approaching Snake’s nair, pivot bair, ftilt, jab and up tilt. Snake needs to be on the defensive because he himself can get hurt by his own traps if he’s not careful. Recovering with Up B won’t snap to the ledge and it’s safe for Bowser to Down B (Bowser Bomb) Snake while using the Cypher (upB). When the hit connects, snake is spiked, but the cypher hitbox stops Bowser from SDing.
    What you see is what you get. Just a guy that loves adventure. He’s Sonic the Hedgehog, and he’ll make sure to let you know. Follow-ups as Sonic can be tricky given his fast pace and super precise movement. His moves aren’t disjointed like Bowser’s, but they are varied in utility. He has a dair spike. His up B spring can be set as a trap that spikes. Sonic has a side b that boosts, granting him amazing horizontal recovery. Neutral b (homing attack) continues combos and aids his recovery. Problem is his speed can lead directly into Bowser’s attacks, so Sonic has to make his approach carefully.

    I would like to thank everyone in the competitive Brawl Minus community for waiting patiently for this to come out. I spent many late nights working on this and I'd be happy to get any sort of feedback, positive or negative. I'll see what I can do about the making the Matchup chart editable. I have a slight feeling that I'm going to be making a lot of edits to this post. Regardless, if you have any questions, PM me and I'll get back with you as soon as I can. :nesmk:
     
  7. player_03

    player_03 P3

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    I think you're neglecting Yoshi's dash grab. That thing comes out way too fast and beats nearly all of Bowser's options.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  8. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    From my testing, Yoshi has 1 command grab and 1 standard grab. Bowser has 3 command grabs and 1 standard grab. Yes, Yoshi can get some dthrow combos on Bowser, but Bowser has more options overall. His aerials are beaten out by Bowser's aerials. He has great movement options with his side b cancel, his what I call "Zaerials" are good mixups from normal aerials. But from what I've seen in other tourney's and from my experience, Yoshi has a hard time trying to traverse the stage and create a setup, nevermind beating Bowser.
     
  9. Mimsy

    Mimsy Netplayer Playtester

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    In my experience against ludas Bowser, yoshi has always been a counterpick. Bowser's 2 weaknesses are grabs and meteors. Yoshi has one of the longest grab ranges and quickest dash grabs. Plus, his fair is a powerful meteor that can be comboed into offstage
     
  10. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    I suppose so, but Bowser's fair is disjointed and while Yoshi can't necessarily be gimped, he doesn't have anything beside his two double jumps for recovery.
     
  11. player_03

    player_03 P3

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    Yes, but that doesn't matter because Yoshi's standard grab beats all four of Bowser's grabs. (And, as mentioned above, nearly everything else Bowser can do.)

    This is true, but all that means is Yoshi will stay on the ground. If he's launched upwards, getting back down isn't hard thanks to down-B (canceled into an aerial for reduced landing lag).

    Actually, he can be footstooled while midair jumping. It isn't that easy, but it can be done.
     
  12. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    Right, right. I forgot about that. Yoshi's mobility feels more like a hindrance than anything. It's feels floaty and unwieldy.
     
  13. EpicNonBread

    EpicNonBread Malfunctioning Machinery Playtester Minus Backroom

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    As someone who's attempting to make an entire MU chart for the game, it's impossible to complete one without having proper knowledge on all of the characters. The best way to go about this is to seek out individuals who excel in their characters' skillset and take notes from your matches with them in addition to labbing specific aspets of each match up. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly appreciate the effort that was put into this. The time put in for the labbing and the written explanations are great, and I really think we need more people in the community who are willing to put in labbing for data for tier lists, MU charts, etc.

    All of that being said. I believe there is a bit of lack of information here that yes, while being your own chart and opinion (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that), reflects a very misleading match up chart from simply not being very knowledgable in a large handful of characters. A large contributor to this is not using live players for your testing and instead relying on CPUs and Vanilla Brawl's ai. It's heavily worth mentioning that (at least for most characters iirc) Minus still uses Vanilla Brawl's ai despite Minus's moves changes. This creates issues like CPU Bowser using grounded Royal Rampage to edge guard because he thinks it's Fire Breathe.

    So anyway, to make an example of this, two things I would like to address specifically are your placements of Sheik and Ice Climbers.

    A good player to discuss Sheik with would be Young Boy Bread. I'm personally very unfamiliar with anything techical to do with the character, but from playing his Sheik and seeing the potential of Sheik's combo, punish, and neutral options, I feel like you've neglected a lot of what Sheik can do against Bowser or are possibly praising Bowser's armor just a little too much.

    For Ice Climbers, I would agree with your placement, but there's a problem with your statements made, and it ties into my main point of not being very familiar with characters when making a MU chart. Ice Climbers can kill most characters at roughly 150% from a Popo grab>dthrow>Nana fsmash so the "not dying at 270%" shouldn't be a thing. They have an "infinite" jab lock on Bowser (Popo grab>dthrow>Nana SH fair sweetspot meteor> dysinc ice block from both climbers) that can get a pretty free amount of damage as long as Bowser misses the tech. In general it's worth mentioning that Bowser is the best character to do jab locking on because of the nature of Bowser and I didn't see note of this anywhere.

    My point is that for a more accurate MU chart, you would be a lot better off investing your time in playing real people for much more accurate data.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  14. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Dorf has always had a pretty easy time against Bowser simply because he has more power and better disjoints. While I may not have played the recent release, I certainly remember how Dorf functions, and not much has changed for him. Bowser gets destroyed by flame choke, is juggle bait, and simply can't compete when Dorf puts him offstage.

    DK also has an advantage because of his superior grab game and throw combos, one of which can lead into his Giant Punch as a finisher. His barrels, while strong in their own right, function more as a mobility option, something nobody else has been able to master but myself, and this makes him extremely deadly because he can just surprise you with the boosts of movement. Not to mention barrels are an amazing edge guard against low recoveries, which Bowser would be forced to do in many situations thanks to DK's bair, which has always been one of the best moves in the game. Plus if he catches you in a bad spot, you eat his Up B for like an instant 60% or so.
     
  15. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    I know how to play every character proficiently. I've played every character since Brawl, up to Project M, and now in Minus. I can, at the very least, replicate what other players can do from watching them on netplay or from experimenting by myself. I played as both Bowser and the MU character that he was up against. I didn't just base my finding on how the match when. That would be stupid. I played both characters multiple times, sometimes on Smashville or Final Destination. I know how to analyze the situation while I simultaneously play the game. What I mean is that, I can tell as Bowser what would be effective against another character. As Mario, Link or whomever, I know what I am able to do, what to take advantage of, what my opponent can do, etc. I think of my opponent as playing the same way Ludacario or Longbottom or DarxMarx or any of the tourney players that I have watched from the many Brawl Minus Tournaments from groups like Smash West and azprojectmelee.

    The reason I took so long was because I was thinking long and hard about where the match would be going had I played against a human. I posted this in the hopes of getting more experienced players to provide their own strategies on how they fight Bowser or as Bowser. I'm not scrapping the entire project because I needed to have 30 different advisors looking over my shoulder telling me how to make the list. That's what these following comments are for: to add addendum to what I might have missed. I really appreciate your acknowledgement of my hard work.

    I feel that both of their mobility options are at an even playing field. Ganon has a disjointed fair, but so does Bowser. Either character getting a "lock" on either character where the opponent can only DI left or Right are synonymous. Bowser's RR down throw - dair - repeat combo and Ganon's down b bury or or Flame choke tech chase are equally easy to setup. This dichotomy of 0 to death moves that they possess creates an equal playing field in my eyes.

    I'd argue that Bowser's [down throw] - RR dThrow - SH dair - RR dThrow - etc. is much more effective, but in either case, they are both good 0 to death moves. Bowser works best when recovering low. I agree that the DK bair forcing Bowz offstage would put him in a bad situation and that, assuming DK is near the ledge, dThrowing a barrel would be an effective edgeguard. Bows can only throw out defensive fairs or uairs (armored). I saw this matchup as a slight advantage for bowser, but not by much. The MU could tilt either way.
     
  16. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    I haven't neglected anything. I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Sheik has side b and neutral b can paralyze and burn bowser, respectively. I'll have to show you have ineffective Sheik is to a crouching bowser. It's kinda sad. I would've mained Sheik myself, had he had any killing power or range on his moves. I will say her best kill move is up b.... from off the top. He can rack up the damage, but Sheik will be KOed long before Bowser is killable by Sheik's bair.

    After doing some further testing, I'm happy to say that I was wrong on this one. Well...somewhat. Sheik can knock bowser out of crouching with fair and follow up with other moves while he's in hitstun. I still think he lacks killing power and Bowser doesn't need much to KO Sheik, but I can at least say that it's not as bad as I initially. Whether or not this makes Sheik a moderate or strong disadvantage is still up for debate.
    I hope you and YBB are not the same person. If you are, you can just say you are referring to yourself. You don't need to make up an alias. If not, disregard this spoiler.

    I, at the very least, implied Bowser's jab locking weakness. If you look at Falco's MU, I made clear how susceptible Bowser is to jab locking. There was a video. "Not dying at 270%" was something I should've left out. Disregard it. It didn't determine my ranking for the character. As for the combo you mentioned, I'll reconsider their placement.

    Netplay isn't accurate. I'd love to play "top players", but lag and buffer lowers skill level so that's a big no-no. If you wanna play me irl, you are free to visit me in Dubai. :D
     
  17. player_03

    player_03 P3

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    Even so, netplay is a better source than either Smash West or AZPM at the moment, simply because the players actually know their characters.

    In the AZPM grand finals, Zman managed to misuse all three of his characters. (Spammed neutral B as Charizard, failed to spam neutral B as Toon Link, used Bowser's dash grab to approach, and never used Royal Rampage's dthrow.) Smash West had better gameplay, but RosalinaSama didn't seem to realize that Royal Rampage only grabs grounded opponents. (Especially with Ivysaur, who as I demonstrated above has an extremely easy answer to the move.)

    Don't get me wrong, I 100% approve of real-world tournaments, I'm just saying they aren't on the same level as netplay yet.
     
  18. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    Lovely wording there, bud. It's not like every official Brawl Minus Tournament is mostly Lucarios and Falcos anyway. It's totally different from the slew of Bowsers at Smash West. No, This was needed to get a diverse amount of playstyles for one particular character. Keep in mind, AZ wasn't used that much because they were playing with the previous version of Minus at the time. It's not that they were the definitive Bowser's, but more so that they were playing locally. We have dozens of people enter these official minus tourneys and only 8ish people in the community get top 8. Not only that, we seldom see fights between unrecognized players. It's always Ludacario, Mimsy, Longbottom, Joeybeta and Dusk. Luda is the only player I've seen play Bowser in tournament. SW was used to provide some variety, but to show and actual local tournament.
     
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  19. Mimsy

    Mimsy Netplayer Playtester

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    There are a lot of things i want to say, but i'll just start here. Being able to select all the characters from brawl to pm to minus and moderately know what you're doing doesn't really qualify for the proper skilled meta knowledge on each character and their MU with Bowser (and I'm not acting like you need this overarching experience with all characters and their meta, just saying, no one here does). I play yoshi a good bit and i'd like to think i'm pretty decent with him, Luda and BC can probably both attest, and if there is any questions about my competence, i am always down to netplay with you to showcase my yoshi. And it's more than just having played the character, you have to have developed a proper playstyle and skill level with them. I think BC would agree that yoshi's recovery is not a hinderance by any means, his up b carries momentum, he has one of the better meteor cancels in the game, and the two armored double jumps give him ridiculous vertical height. I'm not debating that you have no place in this argument, every opinion is worth analyzing, however, yoshi being my second most played character on my wii files in terms of time, his "floaty and unwieldy" movement can be used to his advantage in time. It is a big part of his kit, and quite frankly an advantage in aerial movement around bowser's grabs. It makes me wonder if you have mastered yoshi's movement enough to keep this recovery point as a further argument. I'm not bashing you for seeking other player's opinions, or explaining your reasoning, all of that is good. I realy liked the format of your MU chart, it was very well organized, easily assessed, and the explainations gave reason to each pick. But on the topic of asking other players, player_3 and ENB have both made suggestions that seemed to be brushed off with minor acknowledgement. I'm not going to talk about sheik because I am not of the select few who can play every single character in the game efficiently, but I can tell you this. ENB knows what he's talking about, obviously YBB is the main guy, but i know ENB has played against this sheik more than I ever will, and with that MU knowledge in mind, I would consider revising my previous Bowser v Sheik MU heavily.
     
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  20. Dusk

    Dusk Equals Trash Playtester

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    Forgive me for making this topic go on a tangent but why do people think that these are the only played characters? I can tell you that there is literally only two Lucario players one also plays Falco, the other has not been on stream recently. Falco is hardly played there is only two people who play him well, and thats Joey and Luda. All the other Falcos are really ehh. They deserve going far in tournaments because they put work into their characters and the game. Also I could tell you that the most recent netplay GFs that occurred featured Mewtwo and Shiek. Shiek is a really good character, definitely top 5 but not enough tourney rep.

    Since I mentioned Shiek I could tell you that she should have a winning MU on Bowser. She does well against most of the cast as is because she has an insane punish game. Imagine a character that could combo easily against a heavy weight with a huge hurtbox. She should be able to keep Bowser in enough hitstun because of how well her moves link together. Also she has needles in case the Bowser wants to just spam Superarmour, she has an incredible throw game so if he whiffs a RR or if its too predictable just grab him and punish with any of her incredible throws. The only issue for her is really Bowsers armour but thats really an issue for most if not all of the cast.
     
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  21. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Dorf: you're neglecting something very important in this matchup; hurtbox size. Dorf almost always hits Bowser before Bowser hits Dorf because he is a much larger target. Also, simply comparing options doesn't determine how the matchup goes. It's how much better either is at using those options. Dorf in Minus is deceptively nimble for his weight class, and his attacks come out quickly with large hitboxes. On top of that, his moves generally have more hitstun on them because, IIRC, electric and darkness effects have that kind of attribute to them, giving him more combo options outside of throws (dthrow spells death btw). Bowser on the other hand, requires landing his highly telegraphed throws to even set up his combos, and getting them against Dorf is far from easy. Perhaps someone can test this, but aerial Flame Choke can probably grab Bowser out of his RR charge, which makes it even riskier to use if you can't set up into it.

    DK: you could argue that, but I can also argue that DK has a far better aerial game, with several options to keep Bowser in the air and in hitstun, as he is an enormous target. DK also has his dthrow (not cargo) as a huge combo starter, as using that into dash attack opens up his entire aerial game. He also only needs to connect with a single grounded Up B to put any character into/near kill %s. As well, barrels are not to be used alone to guard the ledge. It's actually better to dthrow a barrel a little bit from on the stage to let it roll off, covering nearly all of where Bowser might go, and then jump off to cover the rest of his options with a nair sour spot combo, a dair, or a bair (or use all my silly barrel tricks to mix even that all up, but that's a whole different beast. Barrels are so good). Hell, you could even use Side B as a mixup. This gives Bowser very, very few options in his recovery, and more often than not, he's taking a hit.

    I understand Bowser is a monster, as I've practiced as and against him in the past, and he can certainly ruin anyone's day if he gets his combos in. The problem is getting those hits in. Against a well-versed player, he struggles to get in and accomplish his task, thus limiting his effectiveness, and forcing him to play the bait game, which he doesn't take as much advantage of as many others.
     
  22. player_03

    player_03 P3

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  23. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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  24. AGentleStar

    AGentleStar Video Editor

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    You kinda are. That's what I get from you're large paragraph. I've committed myself to learning every character when brawl was first released. I've done this for Project M and to some degree Minus. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I just figured that this discussion would need someone who know something about every character. Many characters are neglected, and I want to give them all justice. Also, that quote you referenced from me was my OPINION. I'm not the kind of player who likes Yoshi's floatiness. Why does that automatically discredit me because you disagree.

    I can understand why you would think I have "no place in this argument" because I haven't won a tourney. Even if I am a very skilled player (which I can't be so sure that I am anymore), I can't get past lag on netplay, lowering my morale and focus. I'm not in the mood to argue this every day. I don't believe in the slightest that Sheik has an advantage. He may get an upper hand on Bowser, but from the start he has so little killing power that it makes me wish for a buff. I don't want Sheik to be worse than Bowser, but when you Aquas vs Ludacario in Super Comfort Bros #19 and how much harder Aquas has to fight just to do what Bowser can do so easily, I don't see it being any other way. Maybe it's a moderate disadvantage. Idk. I'm so tired right now. I'm starting to ramble, sorry.

    Why do I have to be a master at everything to get any credibility. I realize I don't know EVERYTHING there is to know about every character. I posted this so people would fill in the blanks.

    Also, to Gold_TSG , I get it. Ganon probably has an advantage over Bowser. I don't know by how much tbh. I just want to be conservative with my judgements. What exactly would you say Ganon has that puts Bowser at a slight/moderate disadvantage?
     
  25. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I'm just letting you know from my perspective, as I was the best Minus player when I was still involved with the mod, and my two mains were Dorf and DK (with a side of ROB, and almost everyone else). The advantage isn't too huge, but it's not small enough to consider the matchup even. If Dorf makes any misplays, he'll probably get killed from Bowser's sheer power, but he just has more usable options in more situations that it's harder for Bowser to really overwhelm him.

    More usable command grab, smaller hurtbox by comparison, reliable buries for better combos. I don't wanna nitpick every minor advantage, but outside of things like mobility, those would be what he has over Bowser.
     

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