Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
something about minus you don't like to play?
The balance is Melee style where there are characters that are so far above the cast that you might as well not use anyone else. I do have some hope for minus though since, for instance, I took a thought of low tier character, Peach, and made her look good.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I already wrote an essay on why I don't like minus elsewhere, so I'm not gonna type it up again lol
 

Doqtor Kirby

Resident Design Nitpicker
Minus Backroom

Mariosonicman1

Well-Known Member
I already wrote an essay on why I don't like minus elsewhere, so I'm not gonna type it up again lol
ah... i understand comepletely. i do hate that forever stun (assumeing thats what you call it when your knocked back and have no control for about 3 seconds.) as well. really wish it didnt last that long... but my question now is... if you stopped playing brawl minus.. how will you be able to help the team with updates from here on? or will you just be moderating the fourms and thats it?
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
ah... i understand comepletely. i do hate that forever stun (assumeing thats what you call it when your knocked back and have no control for about 3 seconds.) as well. really wish it didnt last that long... but my question now is... if you stopped playing brawl minus.. how will you be able to help the team with updates from here on? or will you just be moderating the fourms and thats it?

Hitstun.

I think Gold_TSG may offer his input on certain things [ex: this is really boneheaded for a variety of reasons, or help explain design decisions he was a part of].

The balance is Melee style where there are characters that are so far above the cast that you might as well not use anyone else. I do have some hope for minus though since, for instance, I took a thought of low tier character, Peach, and made her look good.

Part of the problem here is that characters are vastly underexplored, with a few exceptions. I remember when PowerUp was demanding armor on Yoshi's Egg Roll - now I look at BC's Yoshi and wonder what the nerf bat will bring [if anything] in 4.0. Similar things happened with Peach - we all wanted buffs, then you showed us she doesn't suck.

Part of the problem is that certain tricks were lost to the past and need to be rediscovered, part of the problem is that some things were added in for laughs that might not work well, and part of the problem is that some characters are just hard to play or aren't played at all, or else "easy" to play and get nerfed right away, leaving them in an odd spot [Peach is pretty technical, we all know Fox is good but he's very technical, Falco's got some stuff with b-reversed lasers and JC side+B that's mostly unexplored, ROB was explored well enough to nerf him but we don't know if we went too far or not, Kirby is considered broken by Kien but totally fair by me, suggesting we have different benchmarks, Sheik's been nerfed every patch since MAX and she's amazing now, 'Zard was hated by his best player and feared by others (I think unjustly so), Ivysaur received a ton of nerfs, we all have varying opinions on Link, owo and I brought some attention to some silly stuff Falco does, and the list goes on...].

If we had a larger playerbase with people dedicated to each character, we might make progress [part of the PMDT's goal is to let people playtest in tournaments, so to speak], but we don't have too many members, so even though we have nearly every character covered, a lot of it is dual mains (or just multi-mains) and skill gaps can make some characters look broken that maybe aren't (I think the last wave of ROB nerfs was a little much) or vice versa (We had no dedicated Sheiks and though The_Concept joined and had been upset with jump height nerfs previously [and myself for my own reason], we all more or less agree they were well-deserved nowadays...).

It's easy to jump on the spacie bandwagon in Minus or pick someone who bodies them in the combo game, and Falcon, Ganondorf, and Ike are alluring to almost all new players, but so many characters have so much potential that it's rough balancing them out and then we feel some are low-tier when they really might not be [ex: Pikachu, Squirtle, some more...]
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
If the team reaches out to me for opinions, I offer my thoughts, otherwise I'm not part of the dev team anymore. I just keep things civil on the forums, like making sure no one is insulting others pointlessly.
 
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Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
Hitstun.

I think Gold_TSG may offer his input on certain things [ex: this is really boneheaded for a variety of reasons, or help explain design decisions he was a part of].



Part of the problem here is that characters are vastly underexplored, with a few exceptions. I remember when PowerUp was demanding armor on Yoshi's Egg Roll - now I look at BC's Yoshi and wonder what the nerf bat will bring [if anything] in 4.0. Similar things happened with Peach - we all wanted buffs, then you showed us she doesn't suck.

Part of the problem is that certain tricks were lost to the past and need to be rediscovered, part of the problem is that some things were added in for laughs that might not work well, and part of the problem is that some characters are just hard to play or aren't played at all, or else "easy" to play and get nerfed right away, leaving them in an odd spot [Peach is pretty technical, we all know Fox is good but he's very technical, Falco's got some stuff with b-reversed lasers and JC side+B that's mostly unexplored, ROB was explored well enough to nerf him but we don't know if we went too far or not, Kirby is considered broken by Kien but totally fair by me, suggesting we have different benchmarks, Sheik's been nerfed every patch since MAX and she's amazing now, 'Zard was hated by his best player and feared by others (I think unjustly so), Ivysaur received a ton of nerfs, we all have varying opinions on Link, owo and I brought some attention to some silly stuff Falco does, and the list goes on...].

If we had a larger playerbase with people dedicated to each character, we might make progress [part of the PMDT's goal is to let people playtest in tournaments, so to speak], but we don't have too many members, so even though we have nearly every character covered, a lot of it is dual mains (or just multi-mains) and skill gaps can make some characters look broken that maybe aren't (I think the last wave of ROB nerfs was a little much) or vice versa (We had no dedicated Sheiks and though The_Concept joined and had been upset with jump height nerfs previously [and myself for my own reason], we all more or less agree they were well-deserved nowadays...).

It's easy to jump on the spacie bandwagon in Minus or pick someone who bodies them in the combo game, and Falcon, Ganondorf, and Ike are alluring to almost all new players, but so many characters have so much potential that it's rough balancing them out and then we feel some are low-tier when they really might not be [ex: Pikachu, Squirtle, some more...]
Have you played BC's Squirtle?
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Have you played BC's Squirtle?

That's why I said some now think he's not low-tier.

Others have said Pikachu is low tier but I firmly disagree - uair makes for stupid easy combos, bair lets you carry people where you want them, and thunder walls are awfully difficult for some to get around [especially Snake].
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I also beat Baby Sneak's squirtle with my own at one point in time, and before that, he was the best with him.
 

Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior

Thor

Well-Known Member
I honestly think everyone is viable in Minus except for Pichu and excepting playing against ROB, DDD, and Lucario

Some are still viable against them [Fox Falco Wolf Sheik, I think Pikachu actually does well vs all of them...], but some struggle against one or more [if Bent and Glyph's stuff is to be trusted, Falcon had some ROB MU issues, ICs have ROB issues as well...].

Also Yoshi may or may not be secretly broken - among other things, his freaking usmash can't be punished on shield [you can't shieldgrab it and I'm not even sure if Fox can shine OoS to beat a jab followup...]
 

Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
Some are still viable against them [Fox Falco Wolf Sheik, I think Pikachu actually does well vs all of them...], but some struggle against one or more [if Bent and Glyph's stuff is to be trusted, Falcon had some ROB MU issues, ICs have ROB issues as well...].

Also Yoshi may or may not be secretly broken - among other things, his freaking usmash can't be punished on shield [you can't shieldgrab it and I'm not even sure if Fox can shine OoS to beat a jab followup...]
Shine oos doesn't even work very well in Minus.
 

moneer

Member
I love how this thread was about announcements and news concerning b- v.4.0 yet you guys are discussing your mains and how some are better than others.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Shine oos doesn't even work very well in Minus.

If Fox jumpsquat is frame 3, this option is still frame 4 [if shine was made like Melee], making it the fastest possible OoS option in the entire game [since every game has had shielddrop endlag (I think even 64 did), it's also the fastest OoS in both all the Nintendo-made games AND I believe every mod to date]. That combined with side+b being good/cancellable, means you can use it as a get-off-me or perhaps even followup with double jump waveland or double jump instant side+b -> nair or whatever.

I love how this thread was about announcements and news concerning b- v.4.0 yet you guys are discussing your mains and how some are better than others.

Due to an indefinite delay [for very good/sad reasons - it was said somewhere else a dev is currently homeless :' ( ...], we just sort of discuss stuff.

News is somewhat scarce, so this thread functions something like a social and a general "post your thoughts here that may be tangentially related to 4.0." We're discussing mains and such because that might somehow lead to maybe one or two buffs or nerfs, and also because [again] we just kinda post in here about whatever.

If we were some super-strict "on-topic only" boards then I'd have been infracted for sure, but this information is relevant to Minus as a whole and our opinions of what 4.0 should change, so it's hardly even that I'm "horribly off-topic", rather just talking about stuff that kinda fits in here and doesn't really have some thread where this obviously goes.
 

moneer

Member
Due to an indefinite delay [for very good/sad reasons - it was said somewhere else a dev is currently homeless :' ( ...], we just sort of discuss stuff.

News is somewhat scarce, so this thread functions something like a social and a general "post your thoughts here that may be tangentially related to 4.0." We're discussing mains and such because that might somehow lead to maybe one or two buffs or nerfs, and also because [again] we just kinda post in here about whatever.

If we were some super-strict "on-topic only" boards then I'd have been infracted for sure, but this information is relevant to Minus as a whole and our opinions of what 4.0 should change, so it's hardly even that I'm "horribly off-topic", rather just talking about stuff that kinda fits in here and doesn't really have some thread where this obviously goes.

Yes I saw the post about the dev being homeless and I feel terribly sorry. But I check this site every once in a while checking on any news. I see that new posts have been posted here so I get excited, thinking some news was posted. Then I see essays about people's favorite characters and mains. [emoji23] [emoji23] which messes with my feelings lol.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Am I being asked to punish everyone posting in this topic?
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Am I being asked to punish everyone posting in this topic?

No not at all. I was just saying that if Brawl Minus boards were very strict about "on-topic" and tried to clearly define it, you would have by now.

But the point of these boards is to discuss Minus and have fun, with subtopics. The fact that we're not harming anyone by bringing up silly things, we're not horrifically off-topic [save for Megasaturn the troll], and we're not blocking relevant discussion suggests there no reason to infract anyone.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I'll only infract if I feel I need to. No one is really doing anything wrong yet, as the talk is still mostly Minus-related.
 
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