Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[Mariosonicman1]

see its funny because in japan snake voiced eggman.

 

[Momurderer]

The one thing I didn't like about vBrawl Sonic was that his down b and side b were kinda really similar. If Boost was removed I'd like to see an original side b added. Something from cannon, something original, something righteous. Bowser had completely new moves added. Snake in PM has the tranquilizer dart. Sonic's side b now is pretty a dope addition but it does kinda cause some problems for some people I guess.

By the way, Sega is just sitting on a metric crap ton of IPs. Phantasy Star, Space Channel 5, Landstalker, Crazy Taxi, Jet Set Radio, Skies of Arcadia, ...Seaman... just to name a few. Where's my games Sega? Where's my games?

 

[Mariosonicman1]

you could change the side B to the ring toss from sonic battle.
but thats just a suggestion.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Honestly, the similarities in his side and down Bs helps him mix up his approaches in smash 4, of which even I have dabbed in and find pretty useful.

 

[Momurderer]

Honestly, the similarities in his side and down Bs helps him mix up his approaches in smash 4, of which even I have dabbed in and find pretty useful.

I can dig that. I think it'd be interesting if his vBrawl side B returned but maybe on hit or at the end it would do his axe kick fair from PM.

 

[Thor]

I can dig that. I think it'd be interesting if his vBrawl side B returned but maybe on hit or at the end it would do his axe kick fair from PM.

Obligatory "can't steal from PM" comment.

I think if we could somehow fuse hammer spin dash and burning spin dash, it'd make quite an interesting [if obnoxious] side+b.

 

[Momurderer]

Ok I didn't know but it's nice to be in the know.

Hammer spin and burning spin would be interesting. Haven't played Smash4 but those two moves do look nice. Is Boost really disliked by most people. I like it but the more ideas I hear the more I wouldn't mind a change myself. Sonic could just hop and throw his arms up in the air and spew rings out every which direction and then flash invincible for like 3 seconds.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Could just bring back his old side B and modify the hit trajectory so it combos better.

 

[NEWB]

Yeah i like that they made sonics specials better in smash 4 but making them just unpunishable is kinda silly.

 

[Thor]

Yeah i like that they made sonics specials better in smash 4 but making them just unpunishable is kinda silly.

I don't know what you mean by that...

My original idea [not being a Sonic player in Smash 4] was to give the move the initial effects of hammer spin dash [high leap, buries grounded opponents], but then it's like burning spin dash otherwise [high damage move, Sonic's on fire or whatever].

If we did this, the side+B should be spring-cancellable as well as jump-cancellable, in line with recovery buffs that are given to most characters.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Side B was always jump cancelable, since it has its own hop, which can cancel into attacks or spring, so that would be redundant. I don't know how I feel about letting it bury tho, since they have been trying to remove excess buries and stuns in the game (it's stupid, really). A damage increase might not be necessary tho, depending on how safe the attack is otherwise, and since he's a combo-based character, he isn't in dire need of attacks that do large amounts of damage. He's simply missing reliable kill options.

 

[Thor]

Side B was always jump cancelable, since it has its own hop, which can cancel into attacks or spring, so that would be redundant. I don't know how I feel about letting it bury tho, since they have been trying to remove excess buries and stuns in the game (it's stupid, really). A damage increase might not be necessary tho, depending on how safe the attack is otherwise, and since he's a combo-based character, he isn't in dire need of attacks that do large amounts of damage. He's simply missing reliable kill options.

Nair bair uair, and also pummels into bthrow. He has reliable KO options, they just kill around the same percents as Falco's [or slightly earlier? Falco doesn't have that KO throw really, outside of sort of fthrow]. His inability to KO from center stage doesn't really matter when he can carry you off the top so easily either...

 

[Gold_TSG]

Don't forget that the hitstun assists him in a lot of his options. I'm only referring to the complaints so many people seemed to have, since they seemed to think that he needs to have so many options like others (he really doesn't. Spring gimp is still a thing).

 

[Momurderer]

Ha ha the spring gimp. The cpu absolutely cannot recover from that. I thought I really came across something when I started doing that until I actually played a real person.

I don't think he needs any damage increases. In my little bit of playing experience I only have difficulty KOing heavier characters where nair and bthrow become less reliable but he does still have plenty of options and the means to set up those options.

I think a return to his vBrawl side B would be a nice thing mainly for people playing against Sonic. Maybe it could behave like the hammer from Smash4 coming down hard on top of folks but instead of burying the opponent it could just pop them up in the air for more combos. At the same time though, Boost has kind of become a staple of Minus and I don't know if I wants to see it go. And I really don't know what I'm talking about compared to most people on the forum.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I wouldn't really call boost a staple by any means. It hasn't been in the game for that many iterations, like Satan Punch. I look at it more like an experiment in possibilities for his side B that just didn't turn out as everyone wanted. Omnipotent mobility with the crazy hitstun on a combo character just isn't good game design. Anyone who figures out how to grab/pivot grab out of boost can't really be stopped, cause it's very difficult to time yourself to avoid it, and you generally put yourself in a bad position trying to, and if you get grabbed, you're sliding to the ledge no matter where you are, so you're going offstage.

 

[Valravn]

Can we just leave Sonic's Boost as it is? The character's fun to play and IMO isn't broken. Boost has always been one of those things I show people right away when I show them Minus. That, Waddle Control, and Warlock Punch.

If Sonic actually needs to be nerfed (and I really don't think he does) I think it would make more sense to make his weak points weaker and keep his crazy points crazy.

 

[Thor]

Can we just leave Sonic's Boost as it is? The character's fun to play and IMO isn't broken. Boost has always been one of those things I show people right away when I show them Minus. That, Waddle Control, and Warlock Punch.

If Sonic actually needs to be nerfed (and I really don't think he does) I think it would make more sense to make his weak points weaker and keep his crazy points crazy.

Boost dancing is ridiculous in a bad way, the way ROB's mulitlaser was. Something needs to change, and I think the current half-second cooldown that's planned will be a good way to tweak it.

 

[Valravn]

I'd like to hear your reasoning for why it's ridiculous in a bad way. It's certainly ridiculous. It's a lot like regular dash dancing where you can fake out an approach, but doesn't have the advantage of being able to shield at any point like a dash dance would. (Though it's also a lot faster.) Counterplay definitely exists for the technique.

 

[Mawootad]

The key difference between boost dancing and dash dancing is that dash dancing doesn't threaten the entire stage at all times. That said, in 4.0 boost dancing will be largely dead. Sonic will be able to choose whether or not to commit to a boost, but he wont really be able to punish his opponent for seeing the boost coming unless they choose something incredibly dumb to answer with.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Counter play only exists if you allow it to exist. If you make a mistake, you get punished for it. Boost leaves almost no room for punishment because it's basically a get out of jail free card for sonic. He can approach you from absolutely anywhere, and WILL continue his combos so long as you remain in hitstun. He can recover from anywhere on any stage with it better than any gliding character. You can use it to easily escape your opponent's combos if they are even a quarter second late in chasing after him, no need to worry about whether to jump away, dodge or counter attack: just boost to the other side of the stage instantly. It has no downside whatsoever when you use it.

What is fun to some is not fun to everyone. If it's fun to use, but infuriating to fight against universally, something is wrong. You say it's fun to use, but I say I hate using it because how easy it is to abuse. This is a clash of opinions on what is and isn't good game design, so it's up to the higher ups on what they agree with.

 

[Thor]

I'd like to hear your reasoning for why it's ridiculous in a bad way. It's certainly ridiculous. It's a lot like regular dash dancing where you can fake out an approach, but doesn't have the advantage of being able to shield at any point like a dash dance would. (Though it's also a lot faster.) Counterplay definitely exists for the technique.

I'm still of the opinion that it's literally impossible for Ganondorf to punish careful boost-dancing because it covers such a wide swath of area, ESPECIALLY if he can get it started from a jump and some high platforms [see Battlefield, even just Smashville]. He's basically forced to hard read with a side+B or down+B, and if Sonic just double jumps over it, he can boost in behind Ganondorf and start a combo. His other options are ridiculously slow [attempting to uair it or perhaps bair it], and while he can do these aerials while retreating to make it safer, he becomes forced to the ledge where it's then extremely difficult for him to get anything started, because he's once again force to commit to an aerial that's very punishable or one of his special moves [and he doesn't want to be on the ledge because Sonic has multiple options to make Ganondorf's life miserable offstage]. And while he can shield, that's asking to be grabbed [and at that point, his other options have added startup making them more punishable].

This is why I think the half-second cooldown is a good idea - it removes this property without nerfing his combo game [since the vast majority of his attacks last 30 frames or more, he won't be much affected in the combo department (if at all), but he can't just boost back and forth and laugh at people whiffing at stopping his approaches.

 

[Momurderer]

I'm very interested to see how much the half second cool down will address some of these problems. One thing I thought of the other day was maybe making it so Boost on the ground would result in Sonic having to come to a screeching halt (maybe sticking both his feet forward to slow himself down while still sliding forward a bit) at the end of the move but Boost in the air wouldn't have an endlag animation or whatever. That way a ground Boost would seem more like a commitment to Sonic and in the air he could still keep his combo game with just a half second cool down. Maybe the ground Boost ending could be jump or shield cancelled at some point during the halt in the same way his dash attack is jump cancelled. Having to end his ground Boost would make it harder for him to just instantly approach on the ground and start attacking, his spacing for stopping the move to land an attack would have to be more carefully planned out, if it was shield cancelled he could still Boost and grab but just be a little slower at it, and if he just Boosts away to avoid attacks he would have to come to a stop before being able to Boost right back at ya. It could remove the annoying-ness of the move and maybe make it so it requires a little more skill to use the character. Still either way, very excited for 4.0.

 

[Valravn]

One thing I thought of the other day was maybe making it so Boost on the ground would result in Sonic having to come to a screeching halt (maybe sticking both his feet forward to slow himself down while still sliding forward a bit) at the end of the move but Boost in the air wouldn't have an endlag animation or whatever.

This kills the hedgehog. you couldn't jump cancel grab or tilt out of it anymore, at least not well. Even it its current state, it takes a lot of timing to grab people who aren't standing still, waiting for you.

Honestly, I don't understand when people say things like "Sonic can just hit you on reaction if you use a slow move." [With boost.] Don't fish with a slow move when he can punish it. Put him in hitstun and he can't fuggin boost around.

 

[Momurderer]

I don't think it would kill him. He can just do a normal dash and jump, grab, and tilt out of that like the rest of the cast does and still do it faster than nearly any other character. A person shouldn't have to rely on Boost to approach on the ground that way. And yea it does take some careful timing in its current state to grab someone that way.

I think the point of Boosting on the ground should be a fast approach but not be almost completely unpunishable or take lightning quick reflexes to stop every time it's done. Maybe the stopping animation of the Boost I mentioned earlier could also be an attack. While stopping and skidding on the ground it could kick up some dust or force type hitbox or even a windbox. I don't know, I respect everyone's knowledge here and appreciate the response. Boosting in the air is where I feel like Sonic's main combo and follow up game is at. And if ground Boosting had a stop animation that could be jump canceled it would still allow Sonic to chase on the ground faster than anyone but just slow it up a bit from its current state.

I agree that people shouldn't fish with slow moves especially when they know they are fighting the fastest character in the game. It's a derp kinda thing.

 

[Thor]

I don't think it would kill him. He can just do a normal dash and jump, grab, and tilt out of that like the rest of the cast does and still do it faster than nearly any other character. A person shouldn't have to rely on Boost to approach on the ground that way. And yea it does take some careful timing in its current state to grab someone that way.

I think the point of Boosting on the ground should be a fast approach but not be almost completely unpunishable or take lightning quick reflexes to stop every time it's done. Maybe the stopping animation of the Boost I mentioned earlier could also be an attack. While stopping and skidding on the ground it could kick up some dust or force type hitbox or even a windbox. I don't know, I respect everyone's knowledge here and appreciate the response. Boosting in the air is where I feel like Sonic's main combo and follow up game is at. And if ground Boosting had a stop animation that could be jump canceled it would still allow Sonic to chase on the ground faster than anyone but just slow it up a bit from its current state.

I agree that people shouldn't fish with slow moves especially when they know they are fighting the fastest character in the game. It's a derp kinda thing.

Well then what the heck does Ganondorf fish for??? Jabs??? Flame Choke and Wizard's Foot both have this issue, dash attack is not anything to write home about either, and his SH uair/bair are passable but lack duration.

Most of the rest of the cast is free of this problem [Sheik can SH nair a bunch or something] but he's the one I worry about, since his nairplane has holes and his aerials are all pretty laggy.