Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!
- Thread starter Pin Clock
- Start date
I honestly think there are too many safe moves in Minus, however I don't think FK is one of them, and I've never been frustrated by a FK spammy Falcon.While I honestly don't care either way, I just don't think FK should be high up on the "how do we make this move less stupidly safe" list when there are moves that are much safer moves such as ZSS's nair which appears to have 0 frames of landing lag.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
While we're talking about Falcon, I went back and clarified my previous post about aerial Raptor Boost, and added a couple lingering issues.
...This probably isn't the proper thread to talk about Falcon at length, though...
...This probably isn't the proper thread to talk about Falcon at length, though...
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Mawootad
Minus Backroom
So it turns out the jump cancel on hit for falcon kick is something that ended up in a 4.0 changelist, but isn't something we ever actually implemented afaik. It may still change, as 4.0 still very much in development and we test new things fairly regularly, but at the moment falcon kick will always have the jump cancel.
Mariosonicman1
Well-Known Member
pretty interesting to hear of falcon getting a new hit cancel. should be interesting.
im curious if Pichu will fall slower. cause it still drives me nuts how a small rodent falls super fast.
also, does anyone know where the no johns track on final destination melee comes from? i try finding that track online but i can never seem to find it at all.
im curious if Pichu will fall slower. cause it still drives me nuts how a small rodent falls super fast.
also, does anyone know where the no johns track on final destination melee comes from? i try finding that track online but i can never seem to find it at all.
Lucis Perficio
Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
I personally agree with Bent, and from what I've seen of Kien's patches I don't really like them, as they take away drastically from what I feel is the point of Minus, which is to be OP. CF could use a chase option considering his lower defensive options without Melee physics. You have things like Pit's side-b being super effective for chasing and being an almost guaranteed combo starter. Don't see why CF needs the change.
On another note, really hoping Ike doesn't lose his dair flub or his side-b dodge-sliding, as it's crucial against projectile-happy characters like Link, Pit, and Samus.
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There are no plans to rid Ike of either of those things.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
To be fair there's no reason to leave Fox with his shine shenanigans either, but they haven't changed that yet.
Imo each character should be looked at carefully and be rebalanced based on what their strengths and weaknesses are. I don't like how similar every char feels to one another, since everyone has something that everyone else has, even if to a lesser degree.
Imo each character should be looked at carefully and be rebalanced based on what their strengths and weaknesses are. I don't like how similar every char feels to one another, since everyone has something that everyone else has, even if to a lesser degree.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Fox has his shine shenanigans because he's literally the most fragile character in the game. For all my complaints about Falco's combo game being substandard compared to the rest of the cast, I find myself actually able to zero-death Fox with Falco.
I'm still waiting for Fox uthrow to function properly. Also, is the shine animation ever going to be reworked to make multishining possible? Or is it doable but just ridiculously hard as of now?
The only thing that annoys me about Ike's fair is that it seems to be an almost guaranteed grab when you shield his fair [although Falco's dair might do the same thing, I haven't tested it yet but it seems SH dair -> jab always beats out shieldgrabs regardless of when I do the dair].
By far, the silliest thing in Minus is still the inability to meteor cancel some spikes... Sonic dair is annoying, but edgeguarding in Ganondorf dittos is stupid, because oftentimes the best edgeguard is just dropzone up+B since it kills at like 10%.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Fox isn't the most fragile by any means. Fox has spacing tools and crazy combos outside of his shine stuff, as well as easy combos out of throws. Being juggle bait is part of his weaknesses, and that's not really an excuse to have his ridiculous locks and gimping, especially since none of it is very risky to attempt. He was never fun to play or fight to me, and I didn't have much trouble fighting him.
Thor
Well-Known Member
By most fragile, I mean that once you hit him, he feels more prone to just up and dying than any other character in the game. I'm never nearly as worried about dying to some random combo that happens to kill when playing not-Fox as I am when playing Fox.
Fox can combo out of... what throw? Uthrow doesn't work correctly vs most of the cast, bthrow and fthrow don't combo into anything [unless there are more side+b shenanigans, and even then, I'd think one could DI the throws to avoid that], and dthrow is techable... you can tech-chase, but there are other throws that also do that quite efficiently as well. And with the gimping tools in Minus that are present, when Fox is below the ledge, he's usually dead if he has to firefox and the opponent is in any position to attempt to edgeguard, meaning whiffing a shine spike is hardly risk-free [although sine spikes are obnoxious if hilarious], although he can admittedly sometimes simply attempt to go under the stage [which is an option on 3 of the 5 starters that are generally used].
If by locks you mean the waveshining thing, that requires a fair bit of tech skill, although I admit I find it a little silly that you can jab lock with shine in Minus.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Yeah.....melee didnt even jab lock. If anything that can be removed.
Since people people keep bringing up pits angel ring, i know i want that changed. It is stupid how gaurenteed it is. Many attacks clang with it, shielding doesnt work cuz grab, can shield out of it whenever, and gaurentees follow ups.
I dont think falcon needs a chasing tool. Hes second fastest to sonic and is more geared to combos and i think the falcon kick should reflect that. I mean sonic doesnt really need a chasing tool eithe by that logic i guess. It really just depends on the design philosophy of the devs.
Since people people keep bringing up pits angel ring, i know i want that changed. It is stupid how gaurenteed it is. Many attacks clang with it, shielding doesnt work cuz grab, can shield out of it whenever, and gaurentees follow ups.
I dont think falcon needs a chasing tool. Hes second fastest to sonic and is more geared to combos and i think the falcon kick should reflect that. I mean sonic doesnt really need a chasing tool eithe by that logic i guess. It really just depends on the design philosophy of the devs.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Angel ring is actually super easy to in-shield-smash-directional-influence, but even top pros rarely do it [S2J ISSDIs Fox/Falco's shines apparently], so it's pretty silly. Jumping over it hardly constitutes effective counterplay either... agreed that something about that move should change [although quite honestly, if Pit just had a garbage grab game it'd probably be fine... the problem is, he has a couple really good throws including a KO throw].
ALSO, global mechanics question... would the devs be opposed to reimplementing jump-cancelled grabbing? I find myself attempting to do it as Fox [since I'm in "Melee mode"] and it has benefits over regular grabbing but would certainly not prevent someone from playing Minus if they couldn't do it [since most dash grabs in Minus are quite good]. I would guess the problem is a coding barrier, but if not... is that up for inclusion?
Mariosonicman1
Well-Known Member
it feels like whenever someone on here says something about a character. thor comes in and pretty much says the opposite of what they are saying XP
still. i do hope roys move differ a bit to reflect his smash 4 incarnation, he feels so odd to control now thanks to that game.
still. i do hope roys move differ a bit to reflect his smash 4 incarnation, he feels so odd to control now thanks to that game.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Yes, you can't duck during an initial dash animation [as far as I know] but you can jump out of one, so during a dash dance you are forced to dash grab or not grab currently. Additionally, sliding less may be useful in some situations [2v1s]. And for someone who plays Melee/PM and Brawl Minus [such as myself], it would make transitioning easier. Outside of that list, no there isn't a difference, and those 3 points are all probably relatively minor.
Lucis Perficio
Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
Ike's fair would lose most of its windbox/elfire utility if it has too much landing lag, as follow-ups would be impossible if done incorrectly. Though I do see that he has a less landing lag than what makes actually sense. In the case that the landing lag were drastically increased, I feel a small quakebox near Ike upon ragnell hitting the ground would balance this.
Lucis Perficio
Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
Also, I agree with Gold in that some characters feel similar. It's why I play so many characters in Minus as compared to reg brawl or any other mod. Though I don't believe this is because every character is now prepared for every situation, but more the physics of Brawl. Though that can't really be tackled without compromising Brawl Minus as a whole. I feel like hitboxes could be adjusted though. A lot of characters have deceptively wide hitboxes that make it easy to compensate against characters whom you'd expect to have more range.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
They play similar in that everyone got a speed boost and can combo like virtually everyone else now, regardless of how early some can kill over others. Characters that had a unique style of play don't feel the same, and pretty much everyone can play rushdown if they really wanted to. It helped me develop my fundumentals for many more chars than I started brawl with, but I prefer how different those same chars are from each other in smash 4.
Lucis Perficio
Radiant Hero of Blue Flames
I agree. I do think that each character should demand an archetypal playstyle of sorts. Smash 4 seems to accomplish this by leaning towards simplicity rather than technicality, though.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Not necessarily. There are still a few more complex character play styles in smash 4 that require more mastery than others in order to succeed. Rosalina and Wii Fit Trainer are good examples of this on the more extreme end, while Little Mac is on the other end of the spectrum. Rosa and Fit are very complex, requiring understanding all that they can do that others can't (Luma control/all those janky hitboxes), while Mac requires much more patience because of his exploitable weaknesses. Then you have the chars that excel the better you know their projectile game (Mega Man, Pac Man, Link, Samus, etc), and the heavies that rely on hard reads and damage building more than actual combos (Dorf, Bowser, DK).
I just prefer every character having something truly unique to them to allow a broader development of fundamental progression than just making everyone good at pretty much the same things.
I just prefer every character having something truly unique to them to allow a broader development of fundamental progression than just making everyone good at pretty much the same things.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
That is true but i dont mind that most characters in minus are rushdown. On one hand, they dont feel they have different playstyles but on the other you can play as your favorite character and excel with them in minus. Tgey are rushdown because minus ws sorta designed that way or at least it ended up that way.
It is hard to be a huge fan of minus with smash 4 being more popular and mostly well designed though. I definitely will be playing minus to offer feedback but i would still consider myself a smash 4 player and i would play minus more if not for the fact that smash 4 is game my friends play.
It is hard to be a huge fan of minus with smash 4 being more popular and mostly well designed though. I definitely will be playing minus to offer feedback but i would still consider myself a smash 4 player and i would play minus more if not for the fact that smash 4 is game my friends play.