Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[Gold_TSG]

The problem with that logic is: what's wrong with playing your favorite character anyway? Why do they have to be rush down like the rest of the cast? There's really nothing wrong with a character having their unique traits and still being being able to kill in ways others might not be able to. Making everyone play similarly means they all tend to become boring after a while. There is nothing all that new to learn any apply.

Everyone can excel in their own way, or everyone is now Captain Ganonfox.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

a pichu that utilized its electricity for traps around the field seems like it would be unique, or toon links weapons could be a combo of its own, i dunno im just giving ideas based on this conversation that characters all feel like rushdowns.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Not necessarily. There are still a few more complex character play styles in smash 4 that require more mastery than others in order to succeed. Rosalina and Wii Fit Trainer are good examples of this on the more extreme end, while Little Mac is on the other end of the spectrum. Rosa and Fit are very complex, requiring understanding all that they can do that others can't (Luma control/all those janky hitboxes), while Mac requires much more patience because of his exploitable weaknesses. Then you have the chars that excel the better you know their projectile game (Mega Man, Pac Man, Link, Samus, etc), and the heavies that rely on hard reads and damage building more than actual combos (Dorf, Bowser, DK).

I just prefer every character having something truly unique to them to allow a broader development of fundamental progression than just making everyone good at pretty much the same things.

Yeah, of course there are outliers. But every other character doesn't really have that imo. Especially with so many characters now having similar moves. Such as both DK and Charizard's dair being performed with one foot, Bowser and DK having the same uair, and Sonic, Falco, and Fox having the same dSmash, etc.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Well, it depends on what is appropriate for the character too. DK shares a similar animation to Zard for dair, but they both come out at different times, especially in Smash 4. DK and Bowser are different in this regard as well, including Sonic with Fox and Falco. I personally don't understand the reasoning for giving Sonic a dsmash like that in place of his breakdance from Sonic Battle.

Regardless of move similarities though, these characters don't play at all alike. You can't look at DK and Zard's dair and expect to be able to play them even remotely the same. In Smash 4, they at least can't both play rush down, since Zard is so much slower than DK overall.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Well, it depends on what is appropriate for the character too. DK shares a similar animation to Zard for dair, but they both come out at different times, especially in Smash 4. DK and Bowser are different in this regard as well, including Sonic with Fox and Falco. I personally don't understand the reasoning for giving Sonic a dsmash like that in place of his breakdance from Sonic Battle.

Regardless of move similarities though, these characters don't play at all alike. You can't look at DK and Zard's dair and expect to be able to play them even remotely the same. In Smash 4, they at least can't both play rush down, since Zard is so much slower than DK overall.

I say they play similarly, though not alike. Though I do agree that Smash 4 did a good job of providing a particular play "style" for every character. All I mean to say is that certain moves round out character differences.

 

[Thor]

Speaking of characters being similar, attempting to play Samus reminds me of playing Fox/Falco/Wolf [spacies]. Annoying, but I can only hope for 4.0 changes at this point.

I will state that the thing that made me most annoyed in 3.Q was how Pichu's tjolt has a timer and TL's arrows didn't. Take damage to plant a trap that's temporary or aim a trap that lasts for a really long time and doesn't deal damage? How is this even a question?

That said, they seem to have gone with arrow nerfs instead of jolt buffs [according to the preview changelog, although that's apparently not 100% accurate anymore], but I suppose that since Pichu is also getting buffs it will be less of an issue.

 

[NEWB]

Pichu could also place his traps in the air mzking them better in exchange for not being to place them far from him. Though ultimately, i like the idea of giving them a timer. Ganon utilt still needs to hit tl arrows though.

 

[Thor]

Pichu could also place his traps in the air mzking them better in exchange for not being to place them far from him. Though ultimately, i like the idea of giving them a timer. Ganon utilt still needs to hit tl arrows though.

TL could "place" them in the air on smashville by shooting them on platforms and they'd hover then when it moved. He also could shoot them places instead of having to place them directly on the ground. They also didn't damage him for using the move... and had no timer.

 

[Mawootad]

Pichu is also hands down the worst fighter in 3.Q, which isn't the case in 4.0

 

[Pin Clock]

Arrows are nerfed (15 second timer), Jolts are buffed (Regains the stun effect on hit) in 4.0

That being said Jolts are amazing even in 3.Q if you play them right so don't underestimate them

 

[Bent 00]

Pichu is also hands down the worst fighter in 3.Q, which isn't the case in 4.0

If Samus Aran, Space Warrior, ends up being worse than Pichu, a baby electric mouse...

Spoiler

Is there anyone else in danger of being outdone by an infant Pokemon?

I always thought that a major part of Pichu's appeal was the bragging rights / humiliation of your opponent that you earned by winning as it. "OHH, you just got wrecked by the worst character in the game, son!" Picking Pichu in Melee made your foes think, "Really? Pichu? You think you can disrespect me like that? I definitely won't lose." And that made the victory even sweeter. Now Pichu is going to be as good as everyone else, even better than some... That's weird. If I lose to an equally-skilled player's Pichu, I don't want to think "It's okay, Pichu is really good. A true force to be reckoned with." I should think "AW ****, I can't believe I lost to Pichu. How embarrassing."

Anyone else think that Pichu should be the lowest standard by which Minus characters should be judged? I mean, Pichu can be great in Minus -- that's fine, everyone is supposed to be overpowered. But any character who is significantly worse overall than Pichu is just going to be sad.

My point is: The has to be a "worst" or "least good" character, and I think Pichu should be it. Make it fun to play as, and dangerous in the hands of a skilled player, certainly... But do exercise some restraint, please. Sometimes less is more.

 

[Pin Clock]

If Samus Aran, Space Warrior, ends up being worse than Pichu, a baby electric mouse... Is there anyone else in danger of being outdone by an infant Pokemon?

Samus is receiving her share of buffs as well. We're aware that they're commonly considered the weakest two in 3.Q and are certain we won't have them stay there for 4.0. No one is going to be "outdone" by Pichu, he's being put on the same level as everyone else.

Anyone else think that Pichu should be the lowest standard by which Minus characters should be judged? I mean, Pichu can be great in Minus -- that's fine, everyone is supposed to be overpowered. But any character who is significantly worse overall than Pichu is just going to be sad.

My point is: The has to be a "worst" or "least good" character, and I think Pichu should be it. Make it fun to play as, and dangerous in the hands of a skilled player, certainly... But do exercise some restraint, please. Sometimes less is more.

Even Dan Hibiki of Street Fighter fame, one of the biggest joke characters ever, is viable nowadays. In addition, Jiggs is in the top 4 Melee characters despite being seen by many as a joke. We may have put Pichu in as a joke, but we have never intended for him to be weak. Pichu now is just finally where he should be in terms of power with the rest of the cast. In 4.0, calling Pichu a complete joke of a fighter will be one of your biggest regrets.

 

[DubLTeamz]

Adding Pichu may have been as a "joke", but he should still be a viable character to play as. Why make a character, using up a BrawlEX spot, just for a joke? Making Pichu intentionally the worst is dumb, and would be a waste of effort.
If Mewtwo were to be added, would you make him suck like in Melee? No, you'd try to make him a viable character, because it isn't really fun (or worth the effort) to play a shit character for long. Just because we're talking about Pichu doesn't mean he has to be garbage, if thats what you build the character off of, then you end up what garbage, which isn't fun and is a waste off time.

That said, YES MINUS ISN'T DEAD WOOT
Looking forward to not sucky Pichu. I'll check back in December for progress.

 

[NEWB]

I do think i get what bent is saying but how do you make pichu bad but still contend with everyone in a creative way?

 

[Bent 00]

Make Pichu like Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter -- obviously a joke character, but still viable competitively.

The whole reason I made that last post was because Mawootad said that Pichu will "no longer be the worst character in Minus 4.0", and that seems unfair to whoever ends up worse overall. No one else on the roster is a literal baby. If Pichu ends up being Mid-Tier, that's going to make everyone below him on the Tier List look weak.

Pichu, the "tiny mouse" Pokemon, is inherently puny; it's supposed to be cute and not especially dangerous. It's not as bad to make Baby characters really good in something like kart racing, but making them too powerful in fighting games is just silly IMO.

I never said to make Pichu "garbage", I said...

Pichu can be great in Minus -- that's fine, everyone is supposed to be overpowered. But any character who is significantly worse overall than Pichu is just going to be sad.

My point is: The has to be a "worst" or "least good" character, and I think Pichu should be it. Make it fun to play as, and dangerous in the hands of a skilled player, certainly... But do exercise some restraint, please. Sometimes less is more.

Pichu should be a technical character that depends on high skill, not strength, to win. It should be under-powered compared to the rest of the cast, but able to beat any of them with speed and clever play.

Feel free to disagree, as always; this is just my opinion.

 

[Momurderer]

I think Sonic is a good example for how to make a bad character fun to play. Not many people I know can stand to learn him due to his difficulty to control because of his speed, the low knock back on most his moves, and his lightweight which is getting lighter. I don't know how many times I've worked someone up close to 200% damage and still had a little tussle landing the right move to KO them the whole time. Sonic can combo the crap out of people but his lack of KO options makes it a bit more difficult to land a win. Still fun to play as though.

 

[Mawootad]

Make Pichu like Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter -- obviously a joke character, but still viable competitively.

The whole reason I made that last post was because Mawootad said that Pichu will "no longer be the worst character in Minus 4.0", and that seems unfair to whoever ends up worse overall. No one else on the roster is a literal baby. If Pichu ends up being Mid-Tier, that's going to make everyone below him on the Tier List look weak.

Pichu, the "tiny mouse" Pokemon, is inherently puny; it's supposed to be cute and not especially dangerous. It's not as bad to make Baby characters really good in something like kart racing, but making them too powerful in fighting games is just silly IMO.

I never said to make Pichu "garbage", I said...


Pichu should be a technical character that depends on high skill, not strength, to win. It should be under-powered compared to the rest of the cast, but able to beat any of them with speed and clever play.

Feel free to disagree, as always; this is just my opinion.

3.Q Pichu was just bad, in a way that was obvious to anyone who played him. He had a weak, dysfunctional moveset that was just really bad, especially compared to his big brother Pikachu. In 4.0 Pichu will have a connected, nuanced, and unique moveset that will feel good to play one time or a hundred times. 4.0 Pichu's tap/hold system and his new moves let him do cool stuff and keep having cool stuff, so that even if we mess up the balancing and he's the worst fighter on a tier list you won't just feel awful playing Pichu.

 

[Thor]

I think Sonic is a good example for how to make a bad character fun to play. Not many people I know can stand to learn him due to his difficulty to control because of his speed, the low knock back on most his moves, and his lightweight which is getting lighter. I don't know how many times I've worked someone up close to 200% damage and still had a little tussle landing the right move to KO them the whole time. Sonic can combo the crap out of people but his lack of KO options makes it a bit more difficult to land a win. Still fun to play as though.

Sonic's... kinda busted now... he never has to commit to anything vs a lot of the cast, and some characters have a literally unwinnable matchup vs him [Ganondorf should never, ever beat a Sonic in his current form, as Sonic can simply run away forever, then side+b in the moment Ganondorf does something with ANY commitment and punish].

His bthrow is a decent KO move (especially with his pummel) and nair is a good KO option around 150% [it might be sooner, I'm not sure]. He also has a relatively strong bair and a decent uair... I don't know who you're chasing up to 200% or so, but it shouldn't be anyone lighter than like Captain Falcon.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Ganondorf's chances against Sonic aren't unwinnable, it's just that much harder. Dorf can kill Sonic in 3 hits, and all he really needs to do is catch him with a flame choke to start going at him.

 

[Momurderer]

Yea everything Thor said is spot on for Sonic. His three best KOs for me have to be bthrow, uair, and bair. Nair does KO aroudn the 150 mark but not reliably and not against heavier folks. I have difficulty KOing heavier characters (Charizard for sure) but all it takes is usually just knocking them off the top blast line. Dorf and Bowser can both wreck Sonic when they finally get their hands on him, lots of the cast probably can but those two, especially Bowser, are plain old just don't get hit fights for Sonic. Charizard is a buggar mainly due to his rocks. Half of Bowser's moveset is almost useless against Sonic cus of reads and punishes.

I don't know what would make Sonic not busted other than just flat out taking away boost or giving it a way longer cooldown which doesn't sound like is going to happen. Even then he could boost away and then just normal dash back and still be able to punish a lot of stuff.

One more Sonic thing before I close my pie hole on him for a bit or move it to the Sonic thread, I've been playing him for a while and his homing attack seems a little tough to figure out how to make it take off quicker. Sometimes I tap B, and maybe tap it again right away or do something else while spazzing out, and he instantly takes off for his target, then other times he has to go through the normal amount of time for it to launch him at the enemy. I remember reading something somewhere along the lines of B being tapped again right away to make him launch quicker but I can't seem to get him to do it reliably and when I do I don't know what I did.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Truth be told, has anyone really considered just taking boost away and giving him more kill options as a compensation? He's already the fastest char with lots of damage-racking combos. Right now, it seems like everyone is confused on what he should be about. You can't have both absolute speed, tons of combo potential and kill options in one character. Look at brawl MK: pretty fast, lots of combos and speedy attacks, and kill options out the ass (not even counting his godlike recovery).

 

[Neville]

How about we just remove Sonic from the game? Nobody likes him right?

 

[Momurderer]

 

[Mariosonicman1]

poor sonic, doesnt deserve that kind of hate :< its not his fault he was just born that good.

 

[Bent 00]