Brawl Minus v3.5 Tier List Discussion

[Thor]

For the record, I think Yoshi probably has more potential than I made him out in my list originally, but I'm garbage at using him and I haven't ever faced a good Yoshi, and he's... odd.

I think someone experienced/learning to properly combo with Yoshifoot (like how Isai was the first guy to learn to really use the knee smash in Melee for Captain Falcon [to my understanding]) could boost Yoshi up a few spots on each person's list, because that move is SICK. Right now though, it seems stupidly hard to land, mainly done by grounding someone with fair, which isn't exactly easy...

Based on the Pin's list average, I think Link was ranked too low in a list or two, and MAYBE Zelda as well, but... it's not bad by any stretch, and I think his idea was quite good.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I still play a pretty good Yoshi, so if I need to...

 

[Bent 00]

*sigh* Zelda's fallen very far thanks to her 3.5 nerfs... I hope her D-Tilt gets some range back next update.

I agree about Yoshi; it has great potential, but a steep learning curve.

I'm not sure Peach should be that low, either. There's no defense against her Dash Attack > F-Smash combo except rolling behind her, and the timing for that must be perfect to catch her off-guard.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Tier lists have been made based on personal experiences, nothing more. That's why they don't really matter.

Zelda hasn't really fallen in my eyes. I play a mean Zelda, and I never even use her dtilt except for locking like it does in vbrawl. She already has a crazy good range game and more spikes than I care to count. Losing some range on one of them doesn't make her a ruined character by any means.

 

[Bent 00]

Zelda's ranged D-Tilt hitbox is nearly useless now, though; she has to be right at the ledge to land it (bad idea for her to get so close to her enemy), and even then, ledgegrab invincibility on opponents keeps it from connecting most of the time.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It isn't useless whatsoever. She is still just out of range of most ledge attacks, and using ledge grab invincibility doesn't help the argument against how it is now, cause where it was moved to doesn't affect the length of time people remain invincible. It literally wouldn't change how often you land it. It only makes it impossible to spam it further out for easy kills.

 

[Bent 00]

Do any other Zelda players here think the ranged hitbox on Zelda's D-Tilt wasn't over-nerfed in 3.5?

 

[NEWB]

Bent, I'm pretty positive that was just a balance tweak. Stop saying everything is nerf because you don't like it....

It requires you to adjust your spacing a bit, but otherwise, it's the same. All you have to do different really is follow up since it hits people up.

Also, zelda handles really decent physically. Her close range dtilt sends foes straight up and setups for grabs or dsmash, which is really fast and fantastic at throwing foes away from you. I also don't know why people think her grab box duration is bad. It's literally standard for me on my end. I can whiff a grab and I still got time to sheild.

I actually haven't looked at her dash grab, but she should never dash grab. Ever. Not unless you tech chasing and you do so well.

 

[Bent 00]

Bent, I'm pretty positive that was just a balance tweak. Stop saying everything is nerf because you don't like it....

It's definitely a nerf in this case, NEWB. Most of these "tweaks" feel like nerfs to me if they already worked well before being changed. Besides, I'm allowed to post my opinion. Sheesh.

It requires you to adjust your spacing a bit, but otherwise, it's the same. All you have to do different really is follow up since it hits people up.

I thought the new D-Tilt's ranged hit sends foes down and away, not up... Are you thinking of the new Dash Attack's ranged hit?

Also, zelda handles really decent physically. Her close range dtilt sends foes straight up and setups for grabs or dsmash, which is really fast and fantastic at throwing foes away from you. I also don't know why people think her grab box duration is bad. It's literally standard for me on my end. I can whiff a grab and I still got time to sheild.

Oho, don't make me laugh -- Zelda is terrible at close combat. D-Smash is her only good direct physical attack on the ground. D-Tilt is neat, but you shouldn't be letting your opponent get that close to you. Zelda's throws are strong, but her grabs are too hard to land to be reliable. It's not the grabs' duration that's bad, it's the small grab box size.

I actually haven't looked at her dash grab, but she should never dash grab. Ever. Not unless you tech chasing and you do so well.

Yep, Zelda's grabs are awful. Perhaps the devs should buff them since they nerfed her ability to spike.

 

[NEWB]

You are right about you being able to post your opinions. Sorry about that. I think I've been forgetting about that for some reason.

I think you underestimate her physically. I have zero problems with letting people get in my face. Some characters you don't want next to you, but many she can just counter and send them on your way. I have never had issues with shield grabbing people.

 

[Bent 00]

I think you underestimate her physically. I have zero problems with letting people get in my face. Some characters you don't want next to you, but many she can just counter and send them on your way. I have never had issues with shield grabbing people.

Zelda will have much better odds of dishing out the most damage while taking the least amount of it if you keep opponents at range. Letting them get close to her is inviting disaster IMO... D-Smash is her Panic GTFO move, and D-Tilt is very situational.

I haven't tried shield-grabbing as Zelda a lot, knowing how bad her grabs are. We should try a Zelda Mirror Match sometime.

 

[NEWB]

It's not even about it being mirror match. It would just be you against my zelda really. I don't main her either, but I think I can still demonstrate my point though.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Nerfed her ability to spike? Dair, ftilt low, up b and dtilt all spike. How many other characters have that much spike power? And her dash attack used to spike too. She has more options than just a long range easy spike, and I personally think she's fine. Her throws are powerful, and thus require them to be a little harder to pull off. The fact that she has good options for close range also means she needs no buffs there.

I'm sorry, but there's a difference between opinions and obsessions. Zelda was tweaked for the purpose of balancing her so she isn't scoring such ridiculously easy kills anymore. She has so much power already everywhere else that such a tweak should be negligible in the overall scheme of things. FFS, Zelda is the reason Bowser was buffed to hell several updates ago, if you recall, simply because she shut him down like nothing due to her range.

 

[Bent 00]

Good grief... A small nerf is still a nerf, guys. The word "nerf" seems to instantly agitate you whenever it's typed here.

I agree that Zelda's spiking ability needed nerfing. The only change to her in the latest update that I think is too much is the severe reduction in the distance between Zelda and her D-Tilt's ranged hitbox.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It's not the term, it's how defensive you get when someone debates with you.

And really, how bad is it? She is still able to safely spike with it, just not from halfway across FD. I haven't had any issue adjusting to it.

Trust me when I say every change is discussed in detail when it comes up. I haven't been part of the BR long, but I see how deep they can go with changes from every angle.

 

[Bent 00]

And really, how bad is it? She is still able to safely spike with it, just not from halfway across FD. I haven't had any issue adjusting to it.

As-is, staying at a distance and using down-tilted ranged F-Smash or ranged Dash Attack seems like it would almost always be the better option. Getting right on top of the ledge for an unlikely ranged D-Tilt semi-spike isn't worth the risk of Zelda getting stuck close to the recovering opponent.

Trust me when I say every change is discussed in detail when it comes up. I haven't been part of the BR long, but I see how deep they can go with changes from every angle.

I'm happy with most of the changes each update... But there's consistently a few nerfs that are too heavy-handed in each release, IMO.

I bet the BR is an interesting place. I wish I knew what was being discussed there.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The spike really isn't hard to land, especially being that you can literally sit there and spam it. It's all about positioning so you aren't at risk.

 

[Bent 00]

The spike really isn't hard to land, especially being that you can literally sit there and spam it. It's all about positioning so you aren't at risk.

A Zelda sitting on the edge spamming D-Tilt is a sitting duck.

You're right that it is "all about positioning", but that's exactly why ranged Dash Attack and tilted-down ranged F-Smash are almost always better, safer options.

Zelda's ranged D-Tilt should get some of its horizontal range back. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It's fine that you have your opinion, but I fail to see how she's a sitting duck if the opponent is recovering. That means they are already in a very bad position, especially against Zelda. Her dtilt, dash attack and fsmash are all useful to prevent recovery, except her dtilt is the only one that can be spammed, and has very little end lag.

Not to mention all 3 are useless if they're recovering high or low, in which case this entire debate is moot.

 

[Lightning]

It was moved because it was too safe. You wouldn't even have to be near your opponent to spike them. Standing a little less than half of final destination and landing a kill isn't what she was designed to do. Yes, I am aware that Zelda is a ranged character, but it was far too safe and she couldn't get punished for missing.

I'm 100% sure you can adapt to these changes.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm not saying she should get all (or even half) of the horizontal range back on ranged D-Tilt -- just some of it. Between a quarter and a third of the old range, I'd say.

Sure, I could adapt, but I'd just end up never using ranged D-Tilt. It's almost never worth the risk to use it as-is.

Just one more character to roll back to a previous version, for me...

 

[Gold_TSG]

I never used it when it was long. Fsmash and dash attack and din's fire were always better.

 

[Bent 00]

I never used it when it was long. Fsmash and dash attack and din's fire were always better.

Better than a lethal spike? Wut? Before 3.5, ranged D-Tilt was awesome. Now it's... bleh...

 

[Thor]

How about we give it half range of the old one, and make it have an angle of like 20 degrees above straight horizontal? Poke them back out so you can then set them up for more dtilts or an fsmash or ftilt or whatever? It could also have a far lightning kick angle to try to stage-spike people, but this sounds very annoying (gotta tech and it's not a problem, but if you miss a tech, it's pretty dangerous... or else it just knocks you under smashville, etc., which is an uncomfortable place for a bunch of characters).

I don't play Zelda, but I can say having to repeatedly Fire Bird straight up after getting dtilted was infuriating sometimes [and some characters can't recover from almost any meteor like Falco can], with how impossible to punish it was (none of the space animal side+Bs could punish it, and I can't think of anything faster that would do the job) and she's still got dair and ftilt down for meteor-smashing, as someone else pointed out [teleport is impractical, but also annoying]. This change [the current one, not my suggestions] means if I get the ledge, Zelda at least can't keep trying to dtilt me while I'm invincible on the ledge unless she wants to risk some damage... and no one has that kind of ledge pressure that is that safe.

 

[Bent 00]

I tested Zelda's 3.5 ranged D-Tilt some more. It's not that hard to hit with now that I've practiced with it, but the old version was still so much better. I also decided that it's not just ranged F-Smash (which is still great) and ranged Dash Attack (which feels over-nerfed) that outclass ranged D-Tilt; if Zelda is close enough to the edge to attempt landing ranged D-Tilt, why would she ever use that over short-hopped ranged D-Air? Ranged D-Tilt pales in comparidon to that move. Before the nerfs, ranged D-Tilt was worth using over ranged D-Air since it let you attempt the same spike without getting as close to the edge, keeping your opponent at a distance. Both moves were equally valuable in their own way before 3.5. Now ranged D-Tilt is inferior.

There's also a bug in Zelda's 3.5 ranged D-Tilt: Try hitting a grounded opponent with it while Zelda is on a sloped surface. You'll have a very hard time hitting your opponent! The hitbox needs to be fixed.