Brawl Minus v3.5 Tier List Discussion

Glyph

Moderator
I've reworked a LOT of people's placements, bear in mind this is all still nothing but opinion etc.

You'll also notice I've revived the infamous 'D Tier'. The only reason I've done so is because I felt the previously bloated B Tier had a pretty stark difference between the kinds of characters you'd see at the top and the bottom, enough to merit a divide between them. For your reference, here's how I personally would describe each tier level.:

-A Tier: You're giving yourself every advantage you can. Outside of some a handful of bad matchups, you should have the tools to take on just about every challenge thrown your way.
-B Tier: Still very very strong, either with a ridiculous combo game or KO power, but suffers from a weakness that tends to be SLIGHTLY more exploitable than what you'll see from the A Tiers (typically a weak recovery or tendency to get combo'd forever).
-C Tier: Mastery of a C Tier character is just as scary as an A Tier, but you're really going to have to sink some time in before you're crushing anyone. Even at your best, sometimes there will be problems that you are really going to have a hard time with.
-D Tier: Something falls short. Be it recovery, kill power, too low weight, there's SOMETHING that makes it hard to really be afraid when someone is picking that character. This does by no means make them UNVIABLE, it just means that a smart player will likely be able to exploit your character's flaw consistently enough to cause major problems.


A Tier

1. Lucario
2. D3
3. Sheik
4. ROB
5. ZSS
6. Wolf
7. Falco
8. Donkey Kong

B Tier
9. Ganon
10. Captain Falcon
11. Bowser
12. Pit
13. Olimar
14. Diddy Kong
15. Luigi
16. Metaknight

C Tier
17. Ike
18. Marth
19. Roy
20. Jigglypuff
21. Fox
22. Link
23. Zelda
24. Ivysaur
25. Snake
26. Charizard
27. Toon Link
28. Wario
29. Yoshi

D Tier
30. Ness
31. Lucas
32. Kirby
33. G&W
34. Ice Climbers
35. Mario
36. Sonic
37. Pikachu
38. Peach
39. Samus
40. Squirtle
41. Pichu
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I disagree about Mario only. Otherwise, the characters do match the categories that you put them in.

It's probably better to look at this as categories anyway. Most of these guys are roughly as strong as the other. I want to put some guys higher, but they have the weaknesses that you are talking about.

Basically, what tier needs buffs then? I don't think ness' or Lucas' recovery will be improved more, so are these guys permanently stuck there? Many of these characters are supposed to have those exploits, so are they stuck there? The concept of the list is good, but it's impossible to say which guys need buffing from this list. I'd have to say that d tier needs buffs or reworks I guess.
 
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Thor

Well-Known Member
I woke up at like 1:00 p.m after waking at like 4:20 am feeling ill and I still don't feel great, but I've readjusted the list a bit. Glyph made a list too with his own breakdown of tiers and so on. We definitely disagree on a few points, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

S tier:
1. Lucario
2. Dedede
3. ROB
4. Falco
A tier:
5. Wolf
6. Ganondorf
7. DK
8. Link
9. Zelda
10. Jigglypuff
11. Olimar
12. Fox
13. Marth
14. Pit
15. Captain Falcon
16. Meta Knight
B tier:
17. Bowser
18. Zero Suit Samus
19. Wario
20. Toon Link
21. Luigi
22. Ivysaur
23. Diddy Kong
24. Ike
25. Sheik
26. Snake
27. Charizard
C tier:
28. Roy
29. Kirby
30. Pikachu
31. Yoshi
32. Ness
33. Lucas
34. Ice Climbers
35. Mario
36. Mr. Game and Watch
37. Squirtle
D tier:
38. Peach
39. Sonic
40. Pichu
41. Samus

This list still needs a LOT of work - I agree Luigi can do some sweet stuff, but I didn't know how high to move him - I've never seen these Mario or Squirtle discussions, and I'm as a result VERY unsure about C and D tiers, and I'm admittedly not that confident about a lot of B tier, either. I put MK on bottom of A tier at my own discretion, but I don't know if that's where he really belongs or not.

I'm still convinced Lucario is S tier - biggest comeback factor by a wide margin (beats out MK's comeback ability by a TON - here's an example of how nauseating it can be, and I'm pretty sure at the percent Jomo is at around 2:40 3.5 Lucario is the same as this version of Lucario ).
 
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Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
I've reworked a LOT of people's placements, bear in mind this is all still nothing but opinion etc.

You'll also notice I've revived the infamous 'D Tier'. The only reason I've done so is because I felt the previously bloated B Tier had a pretty stark difference between the kinds of characters you'd see at the top and the bottom, enough to merit a divide between them. For your reference, here's how I personally would describe each tier level.:

-A Tier: You're giving yourself every advantage you can. Outside of some a handful of bad matchups, you should have the tools to take on just about every challenge thrown your way.
-B Tier: Still very very strong, either with a ridiculous combo game or KO power, but suffers from a weakness that tends to be SLIGHTLY more exploitable than what you'll see from the A Tiers (typically a weak recovery or tendency to get combo'd forever).
-C Tier: Mastery of a C Tier character is just as scary as an A Tier, but you're really going to have to sink some time in before you're crushing anyone. Even at your best, sometimes there will be problems that you are really going to have a hard time with.
-D Tier: Something falls short. Be it recovery, kill power, too low weight, there's SOMETHING that makes it hard to really be afraid when someone is picking that character. This does by no means make them UNVIABLE, it just means that a smart player will likely be able to exploit your character's flaw consistently enough to cause major problems.
A Tier
1. Lucario
2. D3
3. Sheik
4. ROB
5. ZSS
6. Wolf
7. Falco
8. Donkey Kong

B Tier
9. Ganon
10. Captain Falcon
11. Bowser
12. Pit
13. Olimar
14. Diddy Kong
15. Luigi
16. Metaknight

C Tier
17. Ike
18. Marth
19. Roy
20. Jigglypuff
21. Fox
22. Link
23. Zelda
24. Ivysaur
25. Snake
26. Charizard
27. Toon Link
28. Wario
29. Yoshi

D Tier
30. Ness
31. Lucas
32. Kirby
33. G&W
34. Ice Climbers
35. Mario
36. Sonic
37. Pikachu
38. Peach
39. Samus
40. Squirtle
41. Pichu
Why do you have Zelda and Link in C Tier? Zelda used to be A Tier IIRC-- did the 3.5 nerfs hit her that hard?
 

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
Glyph, what do you see is wrong/missing with Mario?
 

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
This is just by groups not by ranked order. How inaccurate this list is will show just how much I don't know. Then again, it is just how I feel. Spent about an hour thinking about it.

My god this character pwns life and near godly in all aspects
Lucario
Rob
DDD
Olimar


Can rape most other characters... Demigods
DK
Link
Bowser
Ike
Sheik
Wario
'Dorf



High priest teir. These guys are *just* short of being demigods or even gods
Toon Link
ZSS
Ivysaur
Luigi
Wolf
Fox
Marth
(wanted to place him higher but didn't to avoid my own bias)
Falco
Captian Falcon
(easily gimped, easy to predict in the air but still goddamn deadly.)
Mario
Pit



Entry-level priest. Definitely good, but you gotta put in some work.
Yoshi
Jiggs
Diddy Kong
Metaknight
Roy
(I feel this is slightly unfair as his metagame is brand new)
Snake
Squirtle
Charizard
Kirby
Ness
I.C.s
Lucas



Holy janitors have a few good matchups but will definitly have trouble against any high priests or above.
Pikachu
Sonic
Peach
G&W
Samus

 
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NEWB

Well-Known Member
That's rumble falls, ingeneral that stage is too small and too close to the blastlines. A very stupid stage.

The lucario is at very high percent, which doesn't happen much. Glyph was racking up damage when he should have been setting up to kill lucario. There were many times glyph could have grabbed lucario that would have helped him too.

As pin said, you can't base tier on a single matchup. Certainly not on a counterpick stage and by a specific match, though that isn't what you said. You were only demonstrating. I'm just saying that.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Link and zelda are very counter able. A smart person can stay out of zelda range easy. If I remember right, link can be juggled, and dies to anyone that reflects well. These are jumps that they both really struggle with. To me, this list outlines a characters flaws more than their strength, which is a better way to look at it since minus is all about using you characters strengths to exploit the weaknesses in your opponent.
 

Glyph

Moderator
Basically, what tier needs buffs then? I don't think ness' or Lucas' recovery will be improved more, so are these guys permanently stuck there? Many of these characters are supposed to have those exploits, so are they stuck there? The concept of the list is good, but it's impossible to say which guys need buffing from this list. I'd have to say that d tier needs buffs or reworks I guess.

I don't think there's currently a character that needs any buffs right now. I play a ton of Ness these days, and just because his recovery is gimp city doesn't mean he's not an absolute monster in other areas. I've had games where everything goes great, but I've just also had games where I've either been off by a bit and killed myself at very low percentages or just had people come out and bop me for free.

Another thing to consider for some of those guys down there is very few people are maining them. They just don't see a ton of playtime, so their meta really never goes much of anywhere. The ICs I think have a lot of potential to be very good, but we don't have anyone messing with them.

I'm still convinced Lucario is S tier - biggest comeback factor by a wide margin (beats out MK's comeback ability by a TON - here's an example of how nauseating it can be, and I'm pretty sure at the percent Jomo is at around 2:40 3.5 Lucario is the same as this version of Lucario ).

Lucario at high percentages is a nightmare for sure, but he's REALLY pretty tame at the lower ones. You have to really make things happen before he hits 75% to keep in the game, but just having that as an option makes him pretty solidly just A Tier.

Why do you have Zelda and Link in C Tier? Zelda used to be A Tier IIRC-- did the 3.5 nerfs hit her that hard?

Honestly, I don't know. I haven't played anyone that uses Zelda since the update came out, so that's just my best guess as to where she'd fall. All I know is spiking was very very crucial to a Zelda player and she lost a lot of her ability to do just that.

Glyph, what do you see is wrong/missing with Mario?

Range, mostly. Bair hits far away, and his smashes all do pretty ok as well. But outside of that, he can get spaced HARD. His nair is amazing, but itty bitty. Dair links into whatever, but its no bigger than he is.

That's rumble falls, ingeneral that stage is too small and too close to the blastlines. A very stupid stage.

The lucario is at very high percent, which doesn't happen much. Glyph was racking up damage when he should have been setting up to kill lucario. There were many times glyph could have grabbed lucario that would have helped him too.

As pin said, you can't base tier on a single matchup. Certainly not on a counterpick stage and by a specific match, though that isn't what you said. You were only demonstrating. I'm just saying that.

Trust me, I was trying to kill him lol. But you're missing the idea he's talking about there, its nothing related to the matchup but rather how insanely strong a Lucario on his last legs is. Getting to high damage isn't uncommon at ALL for a Lucario even now considering he can escape a lot of combos with double team. Its not uncommon for a Lucario to go down 3 stocks to 1 and run it back with his sheer power.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Anyone else want to see Ike's No Sympathy Mode on the same level as Lucario's Aura?

As-is, Aura is MUCH more useful and effective than N.S.M. IMO.
 

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
I can vouch for Glyph's response on Lucario in crunch time. I played a match with someone for fun, that turned really intense when their Zss was destroying my Lucario, with whom I haven't trained. It was 3 stock to 1. Out of nowhere, I pull a win. Biggest comeback ever.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
But Ike is inherently heavier and much stronger than lucario. He can take more hits and his counter is still good, if not better than lucario's when it comes to connecting with the counter, which is often more useful. He is heavier, right?

Lucario relies much more on aura than Ike does with NS mode. He literally does not need it. It raises his kill power, but does not change how he plays. It is also apparent that the devs are already working on it, so there isn't any reason to constantly raise attention to it. I think tinkering with pichu and samus are more imperative, as nobody is happy with them right now, but I do hope his NS mode is high on the list.

I want Ike's NS mode to be refined, but I also want it to be more unique. Now that I think about it, the devs are also fixating on NS mode too much, so I'm not blaming you for feeling that way too.

Here's a crazy idea! BUFF IKE GUYS! NS mode doesn't change his game, so change that instead of doing something that will ultimately do nothing for him in the long run. NS mode is just icing on the cake. Make a better tasting cake first!
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
The thing is bent, Lucario's aura doesn't even grant him a percent of extra power until 75%. And thats not a guess, thats literally the way it's programmed.

Now i wanna address why i disagree with lucario being top top tier again.
Lucario isn't nearly as bad anymore, he isn't the top of the best anymore imo. It's not very common for lucario's to get up to high percents anymore, especially against characters like DDD, sheik, ROB, etc etc. These characters easily kill lucario before 117%. And even then at least one move on each of those chars will kill him before 111%.

Im not saying lucario isn't a top teir, im saying people are literally putting him at the top of the tier list every single time one comes out, and they do it (imo) without having really considered the level of skill it takes to pull of the things that lucario can do now. there are characters can do exactly what lucario does but better, aside from the benefit of aura.

This is the same argument i used to defend glyph roughly 3 times now in regards to ROB. Just because HIS rob is that good doesn't mean ROB as a character is better then the others from baseline. ROB was proven to be in need of a few nerfs, and so was lucario. However, these tier lists come out and place lucario at the top without even taking into account that the lucario players that most people rarely even see might have a high level of skill. For all we know, someone could come out of nowhere and be a million times better at baseline then lucario, but we will never know until it happens. It is for this reason that i believe our community is too small to make definitive tier lists. There are no tournaments, there are very few matches with these characters even happening.

And with that i would like to make a statement.

i already realize this tier list is a personal one and is only opinions, im not calling things out, im not bashing things. Im just expressing my opinion on the matter.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
I want Ike's NS mode to be refined, but I also want it to be more unique. Now that I think about it, the devs are also fixating on NS mode too much, so I'm not blaming you for feeling that way too.

Here's a crazy idea! BUFF IKE GUYS! NS mode doesn't change his game, so change that instead of doing something that will ultimately do nothing for him in the long run. NS mode is just icing on the cake. Make a better tasting cake first!

But Ike is already a delicious cake. He doesn't need a rework and his playstyle isn't at all old. He's enjoyable to use and really, NS mode is supposed to be just that, taking a near perfect character and making him a little bit cooler to play as.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Then why does it seem like everyone wants to centralize it? He is near perfect, but people are getting so worked up about it that it seems like Ike is taking the backseat in favor of NS mode, and that is silly.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
While we're on the subject, here's what I don't like about Ike's No Sympathy Mode in 3.5:

I.) When Ike deals 75% sword damage, he enters N.S.M.; his attacks are powered up at the cost of damaging himself with almost every attack.
What if I don't want to play Ike as a glass cannon? Sometimes I'd prefer to have N.S.M. not activate, so I can keep my damage at a minimum, and stay alive longer by playing defensively. Sure, you can cancel N.S.M. via D-Taunt + A, but that's still annoying if you never wanted to use it in the first place. N.S.M. is supposed to be a reward for Ike playing offensively, but it's more of a burden if your focus is self-preservation.

II.) While in N.S.M., Ike can no longer charge Eruption or use a standard Counter; pressing B will use his N.S.M. charge to execute a fully-charged Eruption, and landing Counter will execute Ike's Flourish finishing combo instead.
Being able to charge Eruption is useful against approaching opponents, and the standard Counter is a great defensive move that is more reliable than Flourish currently is. Losing two of his best means of defense upon entering N.S.M. is frustrating, since you are basically forced to play offensively; if you don't hurry up and K.O. your opponent, your damage is going to rise too high, and Ike will be K.O.ed easily.

III.) The pressure to play aggressively is even higher now that Ike loses his N.S.M. charge upon being K.O.ed. He has only a small window of opportunity to make use of his increased strength before he must begin focusing on dodging attacks or spamming Aether (see IV).
Other characters (except Pichu) can damage their opponents enough to K.O. them, while remaining undamaged themselves if they play defensively. As-is, a good Ike player is going to enter N.S.M. fairly quickly no matter what; even if he avoids most of his enemies' attacks, he's going to put himself in danger of being K.O.ed before long. It feels like Ike is being punished for doing too well.

IV.) In N.S.M., Aether spam is encouraged, even without its healing properties, because it's one of the few moves that Ike will not damage himself with.
Encouraging spam is never a good thing. Aether's healing effect was added in to compensate somewhat for all the self-damage (and as a nod to the way it healed Ike in the Fire Emblem games he starred in), but it's not enough to keep Ike's damage from increasing steadily once he enters N.S.M.

My suggestions to improve Ike:

I.) Ike must still deal 75% sword damage to be able to enter N.S.M., but he no longer enters it automatically. Instead, once Ike deals 75% sword damage, he says "You'll get no sympathy from me", and he gains one N.S.M. charge to use whenever he wants. There is no visual indicator that Ike has a charge stored, only the verbal warning. This stored charge will not be lost if Ike is K.O.ed. However, Ike can only hold one N.S.M. charge at a time. His N.S.M. Meter will not reset to zero and begin refilling until Ike exits N.S.M. via being K.O.ed, spending the charge on Flourish, or cancelling N.S.M. via D-Taunt + A.

II.) If Ike has a N.S.M. Charge available, he may enter N.S.M. by pressing Up Taunt. A powered-up version of the taunt will begin; similar to Lucario's Ultra Taunt, this variant of Up Taunt will have fire graphic effects, a hitbox, and a weak windbox surrounding Ike. Instead of his usual yell, Ike will say "Prepare yourself". It will differ from Lucario's Ultra Taunt in this way: instead of pulling foes in with delayed, highly-damaging, repeating hitboxes, it will have an immediate, constant hitbox that deals moderate fire damage and hits foes away, to just outside the windbox range. This variant of Up Taunt is faster than normal; it should last no longer than it takes for Ike to finish saying "Prepare yourself". Since it's so short, this taunt should not be cancellable. Ike may be knocked out of this N.S.M. activation by ranged attacks, but he doesn't lose his stored charge when this happens. Ike enters N.S.M. the moment the powered-up Up Taunt ends.

III.) Eruption's charge meter exists entirely separately from Ike's N.S.M., and he may once again store a fully-charged, instant Eruption by cancelling it via Shield at max power. In N.S.M., Eruption remains unchanged; it gains no extra power or range, and it only damages Ike if he continues charging it past max-charge, as usual. Charge time is the same, and a stored max-charge will carry over from before when N.S.M. was activated. Eruption's charge level resets to zero if it is interrupted before reaching max power. However, a stored max-charge Instant Eruption is not lost if Ike is K.O.ed. Also, Ike will flicker white as long as he has a max-charge Eruption stored, just like D.K. does with a fully-charged Giant Punch.

IV.) Ike's Flourish finishing combo will only trigger in N.S.M. if the B button is HELD during a successful counter. Flourish will link into its hits much better, on the ground and especially in the air. Ike yells the "HRRRAAHHH" from his Final Smash during Flourish, and each sword hit has a satisfying SFX. If B is only tapped, Counter will function exactly as it does in Normal Mode. N.S.M. Counter will not damage Ike, since it is a defensive move. It will not have the amount of stun or the ability to cancel into Eruption that it had in MAX 1.01; it will just be a regular Counter that reflects the strength of the move it counters, as usual.

Ike will still damage himself in N.S.M., but now entering that mode is a choice, not something forced upon you. To clarify, if Ike is K.O.ed while in N.S.M., he respawns in Normal Mode with a N.S.M. Charge level of zero. Stored N.S.M. Charges and stored max-charge Eruptions are not lost upon being K.O.ed. Ike's sword, Ragnell, still catches on fire in N.S.M..

Ike players are no longer encouraged to spam Aether as much, since they have two more N.S.M. Special moves that will not damage them or waste their N.S.M. Charge.

BONUS (take these a bit less seriously)

V.) When Ike does not have a full N.S.M. charge ready to use, Up Taunt will look and sound like normal, but it will now fill up the N.S.M. Meter a moderate amount if it is completed without interruption.

VI.) Another way to use a stored max-charge Eruption: If Ike has one fully charged, and he then fully charges and lands Quick Draw...

A.) In Normal Mode, Ike goes through his opponents, and each one that was hit is stunned for about two seconds, before they fly off over Ike's head with a strong amount of knockback. Opponents below 50% damage or so may not be K.O.ed, but they'll be in a position where Ike can follow up with an aerial attack; Ike can cancel the last few frames of this Quick Draw variant's ending lag.

B.) In N.S.M., Ike goes through his opponents, and each one simultaneously explodes from the max-charge Eruption animation about one second after Ike stops moving. Affected foes are very unlikely to survive this, so Ike says his "Hmph" from D-Taunt. Ike cannot cancel the ending lag of this version.

Both "A" and "B" use up Ike's stored max-charge Eruption if they connect, even if they are shielded. If Ike does not hit anyone with a max-charge Quick Draw, his stored max-charge Eruption is not used up. "Why would I ever use regular max-charge Eruption over this", you ask? Because Eruption has super armor frames, and max-charge Quick Draw does not, while both use up your stored max-charge Eruption. It's impossible to shield max-charge Eruption, but it's easy to shield Quick Draw if your shield is full; Ike will go right through you, wasting his stored max-charge Eruption. In N.S.M., he'll even be left vulnerable in ending lag. "Hmph", indeed. Perhaps max-charge Quick Draw should have some armor too?

If you don't have a max-charge Eruption stored, max-charge Quick Draw will function as it normally does.

Well, there are my best ideas for Ike. What do you all think? Is any of this just not possible?
 
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NEWB

Well-Known Member
There is too much to say about this. Very lengthy... I will say that your second point is a legitimate problem that I didn't think of! That being said, the devs seem to have designed him to play offensively. His offense is defense for Ike. While flourish doesn't seem to function properly, the intent may be to have him be offensive. If they want him to be offensive, it isn't their problem that you would have liked to be defensive. If that wasn't the intent, then you have a good point here.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Getting a free instant eruption is perfectly fine. It's like a free quick Falcon Punch to the face anywhere. More often than not, it will kill.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
The devs seem to have designed him to play offensively. His offense is defense for Ike. While flourish doesn't seem to function properly, the intent may be to have him be offensive. If they want him to be offensive, it isn't their problem that you would have liked to be defensive. If that wasn't the intent, then you have a good point here.
Except in cases where a character is designed to specialize to the extreme in one specific playstyle -- like Bowser (Grappler) and Zelda (Sniper) -- I think it's great if a character can be played in several different ways. Offensively, Defensively, Ranged, Close Proximity, Mindgame-y, Straightforward, Fast, Slow... Not knowing exactly what to expect from your opponents keeps the game fresh.

It frustrates me when certain playstyles of a character (that are not overpowered or too annoying) are disabled by the devs because those styles offered a viable alternative to the main playstyle they intended. If they don't interfere with each other, why not encourage both? Consider characters like Snake, Link, and R.O.B.; they can use their varied movesets to attack you in a variety of different ways. You have to watch out for shifts in playstyle. Isn't that interesting? It gets old playing as or against simple, straightforward characters after a while...

Getting a free instant eruption is perfectly fine. It's like a free quick Falcon Punch to the face anywhere. More often than not, it will kill.
I never said that getting a free instant Eruption in N.S.M. is a bad thing; it's Eruption being tied to N.S.M. that I don't like. I think it and Counter should be constants for Ike, being defensive moves; they should work exactly the same way inside N.S.M. and outside of it.
 
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The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
Hmm...Bent, your idea seems like it could work. I'd like to see it, or a variant of it, come to fruition. I am also curious to hear the opposition.
 

Fivavoa

Uwaaaaa~~!
Playtester
It makes me sad to see Peach so low on everyone's list. :(
The only bad I can see of her is that she is too light but everything about her Minus mobility makes her game that much more tasty.

Also with Shiek, I dunno about everyone else and her jumps (they seem fine to me) but the slow down on her dair completely threw off my whole game with her.
Although keeping it completely lagless is a bit ridiculous I kind of think the slow down is a bit too much for it to be as useful as it could be considering how obvious it is now.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Bent, I don't think Ike's Eruption charge is a great counter to any approach except someone with zero ranged attacks, like Captain Falcon - whenever I see stuff like that, my Link/Falco/Pikachu just shoots a boomerang or arrow/laser or reflector/t-jolt... I really want to play you at some point to see how you make what you do work so well, since you fight Glyph pretty well, considering Captain Falcon doesn't have the greatest matchup versus ROB.

Peach is so low on my list because she just doesn't impress me, and my D tier felt incomplete at 3 characters, or else she'd be bottom of C. Fe's Peach impresses me, but even fighting it, I feel like getting hit is not nearly so devastating or risky as getting hit by DK, Ganon, Captain Falcon, Lucario, or ROB, or even Toon Link, Ness, etc. - she just doesn't seem to have the finishing power to be scary, even though she can land a few neat combos. She's not D tier on my list in the sense of Samus where I feel she's a bad character, or in the sense of Pichu where everyone agrees its attacks aren't quite enough to compensate it - she's D tier in the sense that I just don't fear her as much as Squirtle or other C tiers, and in some ways she comes across a bit lacking, like Sonic (who actually feels less lacking now...).
 

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Based upon the three tier lists proposed, if you average them out, they rank like this:

Masters of Minus tier
1. Lucario
2. King Dedede
3. R.O.B.
4. Donkey Kong
5. Ganondorf
6. Sheik
7. Wolf O'Donnel
8. Falco Lombardi
9. Pikmin and Olimar
10. Captain Falcon

Super Smashers Tier
11. Zero Suit Samus
12. Bowser
13. Jigglypuff
14. Meta Knight
15. Ike
16. Wario
17. Pit
18. Luigi
19. Diddy Kong
20. Marth

B- Tier
21. Fox McCloud
22. Link
23. Ivysaur
24. Toon Link
25. Zelda
26. Roy (Extremely tentative)
27. Charizard
28. Kirby
29. Snake
30. Mario

The lowest, but by no means "bad" tier
31. Yoshi
32. Ice Climbers
33. Pikachu
34. Ness
35. Mr. Game and Watch
36. Lucas
37. Squirtle
38. Peach
39. Sonic
40. Samus
41. Pichu

Note that this is an averaged tier list, and that our player base is simply not large enough nor are there enough results for us to calculate a proper tier list, and that characters placed lower than others can still excel against characters placed higher than others. That being said we don't ignore the patterns of people's placements of characters either and are constantly working to make the ground more equal for all characters, regardless of how equal or not it may already be.
 
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