Would you like Ganondorf to be restored to his MAX 1.01 self?

[Bent 00]

With the Brawl Minus MAX 3.3 update, Ganondorf has lost his best (and only) fakeout and mixup move, a vital tool for an entire style of playing him: Bait and Punish. Since he has lost the ability to cancel Warlock Punch into something unpredictable, he can no longer punish foes who easily evade the attack. Now he's just wide-open for a beating whenever he misses with Warlock Punch, so this move will rarely be used anymore. Before, it was a challenge for both Ganondorf and his foe to see who would take advantage of a missed Punch -- but now, a decent opponent will always come out on top. Ganondorf was a predictable and easy-to-punish character even before the cancel was removed from Warlock Punch; now he's even more so. Having the Punch power through shields isn't a fair tradeoff because no good player would try to shield it. Anything less than a perfect shield would usually result in trading stocks, so sidestep dodging then punishing was always the better option. Besides that, there's already an unblockable super punch, Falcon's PAWNCH. The cancel and the pressure it created made Warlock Punch a unique and fun move to use, and one worth using often. Now it's just a slow, instant-kill Falcon Punch that is too punishable to ever be reliable in a serious match.

Ganondorf is now too easy to read and punish with these changes. He can't effectively bait anymore without the ability to punish afterward. Who else wants to see Ganondorf restored to his previous Minus MAX 1.01 self? Please vote and post your thoughts in this topic.

If you're unfamiliar with MAX 1.01 Ganondorf, and would like to compare him to his MAX 3.3 self, here is his MAX 1.01 .pac file. Simply navigate to SD / Private / Wii / App / RSBE / pf / fighter / Ganon, rename the MAX 3.3 FitGanon.pac file, and place this file in that folder. Remember to undo this change if you want to play online, or you will desync from players with the unmodified MAX 3.3 pack.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I pawnched Kien when he got off the respawn platform to win a match using current pawnch, therefore it is fine.

 

[Lightning]

Can't really say for myself, but I did ask my brother, since he mains Ganondorf. He liked it the way it was. He thinks it's much more useful and better being able to cancel it into anything.

That being said, if it is returned to 1.01 and it has to have an adjustment, I would suggest making it grab-cancelable only. But that's just my opinion, so don't take it too seriously..

My vote goes for returning it to 1.01.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'd rather go through a shield than accidentally kill myself with poor timing, or have an opponent bait out the Pawnch SO they can shield it and kill you if you aren't prepared to dodge, or don't have enough room to dodge.

 

[Bent 00]

That being said, if it is returned to 1.01 and it has to have an adjustment, I would suggest making it grab-cancelable only.

That wouldn't be much better than it is now. It needs to be cancellable into anything IMO.

My vote goes for returning it to 1.01.

Thanks for voting.

 

[Bent 00]

I'd rather go through a shield than accidentally kill myself with poor timing, or have an opponent bait out the Pawnch SO they can shield it and kill you if you aren't prepared to dodge, or don't have enough room to dodge.

A decent opponent would be unlikely to try this, since they are unlikely to Perfect Shield, and will probably just end up trading stocks with Ganondorf, or worse: Ganondorf techs in time, and OHKOs them while they're stunned.

Shielding the Warlock Punch was only an idea worth considering if the Ganondorf you're playing against was low on damage and you're highly damaged, or if the Ganondorf player didn't have enough room to save himself after the Punch with a roll or sidestep dodge. However, a low-damage 'Dorf would also know this, and would be unlikely to be careless with his Warlock Punches.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm a dorf main, and I personally like it as is. No accidental deaths due to last second shields, and he already has a projectile on it. He doesn't need the cancel, cause a good dorf doesn't throw a punch without expecting it to hit.

 

[Bent 00]

No accidental deaths due to last second shields...

If your Warlock Punch gets perfect shielded, you deserve it for being too predictable with your Punches.

...and he already has a projectile on it.

That's irrelevant, since you can't (and shouldn't be able to) cancel the Gandouken. It's almost like a separate move.

He doesn't need the cancel, cause a good dorf doesn't throw a punch without expecting it to hit.

You can't expect to actually land a Warlock Punch, unless your opponent is helpless, because of how slow and predictable it is.

You and I apparently play very different Falcons and Ganondorfs, Gold...

I wonder what owo's vote would be.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Everyone has their own way to play. I don't rely on trying to bait people with a move that has roughly 2.5-3 seconds of start up time. I play a more controlling game to keep people at the speed I want them to play, which is done through flame choke, gandouken and utilt, all of which have good reward when used right. Flame choke leaves them vulnerable to a number of follow ups upon good prediction, gandouken has high DoT and let's me follow up with an extra move that will likely KO at that point (should they fail to try to avoid it by jumping or running away), and utilt forces them to either jump and stop their momentum (anyone without a good air game, anyway), or eat 20%/shield damage. If dorf grabs anyone, he has four powerful throws, three of which KO at good %s, the fourth almost always able to follow up with a finishing attack.

 

[Bent 00]

I don't rely on trying to bait people with a move that has roughly 2.5-3 seconds of start up time.

I don't rely on it - I can play aggro 'Dorf just fine - but it's a nice option to have. Playing pure offense all the time wears me out; I like to jump back and bait the opponent to come after me now and then.

 

[Gold_TSG]

That's just it though. You have other options besides the cancel to use.

 

[Bent 00]

That's just it though. You have other options besides the cancel to use.

There's no other option that gives 'Dorf a break from pure offense and baits the opponent to come to him for a change (that he can fake out of and punish, anyway).

Two of my favorite moves to cancel Warlock Punch into were D-Special (Wizard's Foot) and F-Tilt (Sparta Kick). Opponent rushing at you to try and grab or hit you before the Punch goes off? Nope, kicked. They try to roll behind you? Turn around and F-Smash. Jump over you? U-Smash or Up-B. All of those moves are punishable, but having to guess which one you'll cancel into throws off your opponent.

Ganondorf needed those mixup options. He's way too predictable without them.

 

[Gold_TSG]

For someone so predictable, he sure can handle the characters that others (like my Marth) cannot. And who's to say that the opponent is merely rushing you as you punch? They could be trying to attack you as well, even if they jump, thus potentially eating through whatever you baited them in for. Not only that, but anyone who sees dorf going for a punch would, at the very least, predict your baits (especially after the first time), and thus the baiting no longer works, because they won't try to go for it again.

 

[Bent 00]

And who's to say that the opponent is merely rushing you as you punch? They could be trying to attack you as well, even if they jump, thus potentially eating through whatever you baited them in for.

Several of Ganondorf's attacks are high priority, or their hitboxes allow them to beat out attacks they clang with. F-Air and F-Smash, for instance.

Not only that, but anyone who sees dorf going for a punch would, at the very least, predict your baits (especially after the first time), and thus the baiting no longer works, because they won't try to go for it again.

The bait might not work on high-level players like you and Glyph, but it works on even slightly lower-level players very well in my experience.

 

[Gold_TSG]

But in that situation, why is it necessary? Why should it only be re-added just because it works on lower level players? If you're playing against lower levels, almost any strategy would work anyway, and even they would pick up on "punch start up means don't approach."

 

[Bent 00]

But in that situation, why is it necessary?

It's not necessary, but it gave 'Dorf a whole new playstyle option, and made Warlock Punch a LOT more useful. The cancel was also a longtime Minus staple, and it was just really fun to use.

Why should it only be re-added just because it works on lower level players? If you're playing against lower levels, almost any strategy would work anyway, and even they would pick up on "punch start up means don't approach."

I said "slightly lower-level players", compared to you and Glyph. I play against several people who are very good at Minus, who are just below your level, and right at or a little bit below mine. Ganondorf's Warlock Punch Cancel bait / fake outs throw them off pretty well.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Then I leave it up to the devs. I personally don't miss it and love hitting through shields.

 

[Glyph]

If you're able to hit someone with the cancel, then they already goofed and didn't get to you in time to stop the punch and were putting themselves at getting hit by the insta-kill.

But here's the problem with the old cancel: it made it safe to throw out ganon's punch. What you call a mixup is really just a really insanely good move for some reason having NO endlag, allowing you to go into another one of ganon's insanely strong moves like wiz kick. Losing this in return for making the move ignore shields entirely is still an overall buff to ganon, because there's no risk of accidentally blowing yourself up. Worst case scenario, you get knocked into a combo and even then you at least have a CHANCE to survive.

We cannot balance a game with multiple levels of skill in play, especially when one is doing something as easily avoided as jumping straight at a ganon charging the move that literally kills you no matter what AND timing it wrong to the point where they don't manage to hit him. Its not a hard adjustment to make, just let the ol' man yell and swing his arms around for a bit and then go slap him in the endlag that that move so clearly deserves to have.

 

[Bent 00]

I get your logic, Glyph, but as a Ganondorf main, I persist that Ganondorf really benefits from having a mixup option.

He and Ike are far too predictable and punishable now.

 

[Bent 00]

How about a compromise? Leave grounded Warlock Punch the way it is in MAX 3.3, but revert the aerial version back to its MAX 1.01 form.

That way, 'Dorf could do an offstage Warlock Punch and actually make it back to the stage afterward.

If you're gonna make it simply a stronger, slower Falcon Punch, might as well let him do it aerially with style, like Falcon can.

 

[Pin Clock]

That would A. Make Ganon more predictable and B. be a huge nerf due to the fact that if a Ganon in the air hits a shield there is no way for him to save himself

 

[Bent 00]

That would A. Make Ganon more predictable and B. be a huge nerf due to the fact that if a Ganon in the air hits a shield there is no way for him to save himself

It's not something you would do in a serious match.

It would be unlikely for 'Dorf to hit a shield with the aerial Warlock Punch. Since he falls so fast, whenever he punches with the stage underneath him, he's going to hit the ground before the Punch fires, making him do the new uncancellable shield-ignoring version.

Would adding a cancel to the end of the aerial Warlock Punch (right after the hitbox comes out) make it lose its shield-ignoring property? Would the cancel cause him to go back to flying off if his Punch gets shielded? Even if so, the likelihood of a Warlock Punch hitting a shield before 'Dorf lands is very minimal.

 

[Pin Clock]

It's more "Oh he's doing the warlock punch in the air, that means he's planning on cancelling into something" would make it predictable.

Yes, it would make him go flying off.

Foes could be on platforms that Ganon isn't planning on landing on.

 

[Glyph]

Am I crazy or is there like no time Ganon would ever even try to use Warlock Punch in the air? Like with his double jump he'll just land before it finishes, and to take it offstage he'd wind up falling pretty damn close to the blast line before it went off.

 

[Gold_TSG]

He dies if it's used offstage. Period. That's how long it lasts, unless he uses it from near death by the top blast line.