What Might be best for the Knight?

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Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
In Brawl Minus MAX, Meta Knight was a powerful force with a unique gimmick: He didn't deal that much damage, but had a lot of knockback, netting him kills at percents far earlier than anyone else would. However, this was rather unfair in teams where MK paired with anyone decent at dishing out damage was a dangerous force to stop. His percents and KB were altered since then, but at the same time he lost some of his touch, power, and uniqueness.

As shown in the 4.0 preview changelog, we were considering returning Meta Knight to a variation of his MAX self. However, this decision was met with more questionable feedback, so this thread was created as a place to talk about how MK should be handled in 4.0.

While I'm at it, I'll bring up a few other topics in here too:

Meta Knight's jab, which allowed him to get away from most confrontations and reward him with a combo if it hit. It's better than HIYIYA but is it the best jab for him?

Meta Knight's fSmash is completely out of synch with the rest of his moves. It's very slow and very powerful, as well as his best kill move. That aside, it's also clunky, can be easily countered, and has confusing endlag. What ideas would you have to better this move?

MK's uSmash is also "clunky" in a sense. It's really good for aerial set ups, but lacks an end animaiton (which we have a hard time actually adding ourselves). What do you think of Meta Knight's uSmash?

Any other thoughts about Meta Knight, please share them here!
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I really don't know. It seems like what has been done to him has made him better than before.

Low damage and high knockback are unique but that is overpowered in team matches. If that can't be remedied somehow, that seems like a bad idea.

I've never liked his new attacks as far as coolness goes. I can't argue against them because they have greater utility then vbrawl versions but the vbrawl moves were much cooler imo. When I first saw MK in braw., I instantly wanted to main him because he swings his sword at like 90 mph! I mean, I guess faster than that since he can apparently make a tornado.... The new moves have greater utility but they have never clicked well with me because they feel like they don't fit.

His old jab looks awesome but sucks mostly. New jab has utility but is basically an attack attached to back roll, making back roll pretty much useless. That's kinda stupid visually and it didn't really feel creative since it is just an attack attached to back roll making back roll useless. If MK becomes a high knockback character then he doesn't really need combos either.

Old Fsmash had a little more power then dsmash but Dsmash just outclasses it with speed and it covers more options. MK didn't need his fsmash, so he got slower, stronger new fsmash. I don't mind this move at all and could stay as is. It's been said that not all attacks need to be super useful. BUT all his attacks will be gaining knockback, netting him more kills if the new change is applied. This makes this attack slightly less useful unless it's turned into a falcon punch type move. I'm guessing the endlag is confusing because he finishes the attack with the end of his fight me taunt. Either remove that altogether or only make it do that if the fsmash connects.

Speaking of taunts, MK having voice clips sprinkled throught his moveset was freaking awesome. He was that much more a total boss. I say put those back in.

His old Usmash was changed simply in favor for a combo starter I guess. I don't really see a problem with his vbrawl Usmash though. Mind you, his new Usmash replaced his last new usmash, which was basically just the first swing of vbrawl Usmash and he was instantly in the air just barely off the ground. That didn't do anything. If MK becomes a high knockback character, he wouldn't need combos actually.

Those are my thoughts. I'd like his jab and his Usmash to be played around with but the fsmash is mostly fine as is.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
In Brawl Minus MAX, Meta Knight was a powerful force with a unique gimmick: He didn't deal that much damage, but had a lot of knockback, netting him kills at percents far earlier than anyone else would. However, this was rather unfair in teams where MK paired with anyone decent at dishing out damage was a dangerous force to stop. His percents and KB were altered since then, but at the same time he lost some of his touch, power, and uniqueness.

As shown in the 4.0 preview changelog, we were considering returning Meta Knight to a variation of his MAX self. However, this decision was met with more questionable feedback, so this thread was created as a place to talk about how MK should be handled in 4.0.

While I'm at it, I'll bring up a few other topics in here too:

Meta Knight's jab, which allowed him to get away from most confrontations and reward him with a combo if it hit. It's better than HIYIYA but is it the best jab for him?

Meta Knight's fSmash is completely out of synch with the rest of his moves. It's very slow and very powerful, as well as his best kill move. That aside, it's also clunky, can be easily countered, and has confusing endlag. What ideas would you have to better this move?

MK's uSmash is also "clunky" in a sense. It's really good for aerial set ups, but lacks an end animaiton (which we have a hard time actually adding ourselves). What do you think of Meta Knight's uSmash?

Any other thoughts about Meta Knight, please share them here!

I do not like MAX MK, as I found playing him annoying, since unlike a lot of characters you actually couldn't gimp effectively at low percents [Ganondorf can land a pair of stomps as can Falcon, Falco can do zillions of offstage dairs and use the flames of fire bird to irritate the opponent, Pikachu's got thunder and dair, etc.] which is odd since I feel like MK is an offstage flier. I feel with his current form he's a tiny bit better at that, which feels truer to how I think MK should play.

MK's jab is safe on shield, rewards him with a combo if hit, can chain into itself in silly ways [jab -> jab -> jab anyone? How about jab -> dsmash -> walk forward and jab again? Or jab -> grab if bad enough DI...]. It's amazing, but I have to wonder if it's well-designed. Perhaps make his old ftilt his new jab, and make a new ftilt??? [This felt worth underlining.]

MK's fsmash is barely stronger than dsmash [it feels that way], and I HATE the endlag on it. I'd prefer vBrawl fsmash with maybe a small KB boost if this one is stronger than vBrawl's, but it doesn't have to be a lot since that one is safer.

Usmash feels awkward to combo with to be honest, and it looks a little weird. I liked old usmash for being decent at eating airdodges to be honest [as rarely used as it was]. It had some other uses too that I felt may have not been that well-explored, since in Brawl the lack of hitstun made it almost useless for following up as compared to ftilt, utilt the stronger not SDIable KO move, or just nado for the same or more damage on most targets. In Brawl Minus I felt his usmash could have had uses as it was, or even just make it JC-able at the end if you want similar functionality while being smoother [though this might be too good and/or just lazy].

I also wish dsmash sent in the normal vBrawl directions - I never understood why it was changed to always send the direction he's facing, and I preferred it being able to send opponents behind you back out. If there's a reason for this I wouldn't mind hearing it to evaluate it, but right now I find this both annoying and confusing.

Honestly, I really don't know. It seems like what has been done to him has made him better than before.

Low damage and high knockback are unique but that is overpowered in team matches. If that can't be remedied somehow, that seems like a bad idea.

I've never liked his new attacks as far as coolness goes. I can't argue against them because they have greater utility then vbrawl versions but the vbrawl moves were much cooler imo. When I first saw MK in braw., I instantly wanted to main him because he swings his sword at like 90 mph! I mean, I guess faster than that since he can apparently make a tornado.... The new moves have greater utility but they have never clicked well with me because they feel like they don't fit.

His old jab looks awesome but sucks mostly. New jab has utility but is basically an attack attached to back roll, making back roll pretty much useless. That's kinda stupid visually and it didn't really feel creative since it is just an attack attached to back roll making back roll useless. If MK becomes a high knockback character then he doesn't really need combos either.

Old Fsmash had a little more power then dsmash but Dsmash just outclasses it with speed and it covers more options. MK didn't need his fsmash, so he got slower, stronger new fsmash. I don't mind this move at all and could stay as is. It's been said that not all attacks need to be super useful. BUT all his attacks will be gaining knockback, netting him more kills if the new change is applied. This makes this attack slightly less useful unless it's turned into a falcon punch type move. I'm guessing the endlag is confusing because he finishes the attack with the end of his fight me taunt. Either remove that altogether or only make it do that if the fsmash connects.

Speaking of taunts, MK having voice clips sprinkled throught his moveset was freaking awesome. He was that much more a total boss. I say put those back in.

His old Usmash was changed simply in favor for a combo starter I guess. I don't really see a problem with his vbrawl Usmash though. Mind you, his new Usmash replaced his last new usmash, which was basically just the first swing of vbrawl Usmash and he was instantly in the air just barely off the ground. That didn't do anything. If MK becomes a high knockback character, he wouldn't need combos actually.

Those are my thoughts. I'd like his jab and his Usmash to be played around with but the fsmash is mostly fine as is.

I think backroll is still useful because of invincibility against people landing from above. It's much better than backroll for avoiding a grab after an aerial though [or usually as good], which is kind of silly.

I think dsmash is better than current fsmash. I think old fsmash was a lot safer and had more range, so I liked it [and with the nearly non-existent endlag and high hitbox, begged people to challenge it, and served as a great anti-air in some situations]. I just feel the current one is awkward and doesn't really give much reward to MK for landing it.

His old new fsmash was really weird - I never did much with it but I don't know if that's all that good.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
This seems to be a continuing theme when people start talking about MK's jab

Well his old jab sucks, and his new jab is too good. There needs to be an in-between.
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
I had never heard of this suggestion before to be honest.
I was actually suggesting the same thing for what made the most sense for mk's jab a couple of days ago when Tybis pointed out that he'd said that as well several months ago. F-tilt really does feel like a jab combo.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
HAVE I NOT SAID THAT BEFORE HERE? I should shoot myself. I've been telling my brother that they should have mapped his ftilts to his jab and made his jab an infinite jab like everyone else whenever I talked about smash 4. I can't believe I never mentioned that here. It makes more sense to do this because MK can then gain an

I don't know what knew Ftilt would be but its better than a not jab combo and an infinite jab taking up two spots.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
I think it would be great if his slash-jump-back jab became a tilt and one of his tilts became his jab. I don't think there's anything wrong with the move; it's good to space with even though it can't easily combo. (Even with itself, @Thor, because you can SDI and tech the stage.) A useful tool, but his forward tilt fits better as a jab. I like the moves as they are but to me it makes more sense to swap them around.

Never had a problem with his up-smash, personally. Forward Smash is clunky as fuck though, you have to break rhythm pretty heavily for any of the mostly-guaranteed setups, and if you whiff it (likely) you are in one terrible position.

What I actually came here to ask though, is whether Meta Knight will be able hand out beam swords like he used to. I thought it was a really unique mechanic, and if you know what you're doing when you do it, it's extremely useful.

I personally had more fun with MAX Meta Knight than 3.Q, but I enjoy the character in both.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I also liked that but it seems half of us liked it and the other half didn't. Not that I counted it felt like every other person was either for or against it.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I myself was against it. He spawns the item in his hands, so he can do with it what he will. If he didn't feel like gimping you with his 46 offstage options, he could just chuck the sword at you to keep you away.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
My bad then. It's been a while and I never used MK anyway
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
That's pretty solid ground to stand on.

I liked it because it forced your opponent to make a decision immediately; attempt to hang onto the sword or start throwing it. If they throw it, Meta Knight has some insane combo potential with that sword. teleporting around to grab it, glide-tossing it mixed in with jab, all kinds of shit. If they hang on to it, they FIGHT YOU.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
At the same time tho, it shuts down your opponents attacks, even if only briefly. A lot of chars are better off with their own attacks, and I'm personally not a fan of anything that forces you to play a certain way like that. There are no advantages to it. It's like grabbing rob's gyro to keep him from using it again against you, except you choose to do that.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I don't know. Other attacks in minus do automatically force an action out of the opponent so I don't see a problem with that, gold. Only difference is that this is a throw. His fthrow is designed currently to send foes at a semispike trajectory because that gave MK the advantage. DI on the opponent's end doesn't really matter in this case so I figured the sword was a substitute.

I can't remember why it was removed but the reasoning for it staying was the throw put the foe in a bad position so the sword was a cool nod and a counter balance. Maybe they said it in 3.Q patch notes.

Edit: apparently the beam sword was deemed too good so it was removed. Buffing it probably isn't the way to go.

Edit2: that is to say they felt this discouraged Mk from using fthrow.
 
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Valravn

Well-Known Member
There's definitely an advantage to using ROB's gyro against him, just like catching Peach's turnips, or Diddy's bananas. It takes a little practice to get good at the laser sword game, but if you're better than your opponent at it then it's probably the most powerful 'projectile' a character can pull. I think it fits MK pretty well in that regard.

Summoning @Pin Clock or @Mawootad to hear some backroom thoughts here.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
If your character is actually shut down by beam sword, wiggle out of tumble [or double jump] and hit Z. It drops the beam sword on I think frame 1 [it might be like frame 5 or 6] which means your character has their moveset back less than a tenth of a second after acquiring the beam sword and being out of tumble.
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
Giving your opponent a beam sword generally gives them a lot of extra momentum, which results in mk's forward throw only being a good option (compared to down and back throws) when it's a near guaranteed kill.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Giving your opponent a beam sword generally gives them a lot of extra momentum, which results in mk's forward throw only being a good option (compared to down and back throws) when it's a near guaranteed kill.

I know it gives them momentum, but... isn't that the point? I thought the flavor was that MK believes he'll win anyway, so he's giving them a fighting chance... and bthrow and dthrow are already good throws anyway [in my opinion], so that's why I liked fthrow giving away beam swords.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
You'd think taking an opponent's item would be advantageous, but there are some people, myself included, that WANT you to pick up the item. Why? Because if you aren't good at using it, I can get in on you and get physical, physical. I do it all the time in smash 4 and it works pretty well, since most people don't expect zoners to approach.

MK is just dumb no matter how you slice it.
 
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Thor

Well-Known Member
MK's fthrow sends people far enough away that they have plenty of time to throw it away if they don't want it involved, and if they do, that's their choice [much like catching ZSS armor - most say throw it away, but ZSS dittos that rarely happens since they each want the item control].

Uthrow is doing less damage so it'll KO him later too, and really his dthrow is a catch-all throw [in the way several dthrows are, like Ness's and Falcon's]. I don't honestly think he needs fthrow as is - it feels like at best an opportunity to setup an edgeguard, but dthrow already does that, while the fthrow did something cool and unique.

If KOing with it is a problem, give it high BKB and low KBG, so the opponent has a chance to dump the sword if they don't want it, but it doesn't KO or whatever.

[I'm not really expecting this to get in since there seems to be fair opposition, but I'm offering my viewpoint anyways since I loved MK having this.]
 
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