Super Smash Bros. 4 Discussion
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AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
My friend figured out that he can just duck under all my set ups as Jigglypuff. Of course that negates lot of Mewtwo's combo set ups. Along with any little priority he had left over jiggs. I refuse to fight Jiggs with mewtwo. I have never fought a harder match up in smash. Grabs won't work if she is crouched. You dash grab on her when she is crouched. Easy rest.
Upsmash won't hit her on the ground regardless of crouch or not. It's not a concept of I got outplayed. I won a tournament yesterday with Mewtwo. Not a single jigglypuff in sight. The main problem is that bair is not even viable. Jigglypuff is a god in air and easily out maneuvers that move by jumping back. Furthermore, if you are being knocked offstage you will be facing the stage meaning the bair will be useless. Unless you reverse side b which is not preferred when recovering. Don't get me on that shadow ball. Easy to kill everyone at 100% with it fully charged. But it's like having a blockable KO punch with little Mac. No one going to just fall for it and setting it up with a disable is wasteful since you could just as simply do dsmash or fsmash to kill.
Also I realized the AI has gotten better because they are hitting combos I have only seen online players do. Also as a final note, always try to stay on top of the game with Mewtwo. If you get forced into a defensive match 9 times out of 10 it will be hard. He isn't a safe character in the slightest and you will die if you pop out stupid moves.
Upsmash won't hit her on the ground regardless of crouch or not. It's not a concept of I got outplayed. I won a tournament yesterday with Mewtwo. Not a single jigglypuff in sight. The main problem is that bair is not even viable. Jigglypuff is a god in air and easily out maneuvers that move by jumping back. Furthermore, if you are being knocked offstage you will be facing the stage meaning the bair will be useless. Unless you reverse side b which is not preferred when recovering. Don't get me on that shadow ball. Easy to kill everyone at 100% with it fully charged. But it's like having a blockable KO punch with little Mac. No one going to just fall for it and setting it up with a disable is wasteful since you could just as simply do dsmash or fsmash to kill.
Also I realized the AI has gotten better because they are hitting combos I have only seen online players do. Also as a final note, always try to stay on top of the game with Mewtwo. If you get forced into a defensive match 9 times out of 10 it will be hard. He isn't a safe character in the slightest and you will die if you pop out stupid moves.
Thor
Well-Known Member
You've never fought a Fox in Melee as a low tier, have you? I can beat most the local spacies, but it's like bullet hell + combo hell where I have to spend the whole match nairing and jabbing to keep them out, looking for my one chance to get a huge uair string or up+B OoS or grab to turn the tide.
I played one of our local Puffs twice. Game 1 I lost, there was an SD but I landed a spike on him so it sort of evened out I guess. Game 2 I got a 2-stock that was almost a 3-stock [we played 3 stocks].
Beat back dair with well-timed uairs [either it works, I'm a god at spacing and it can work, or something was being weird], and use Confusion to stall out dair then teleport after it [that confusion pop-up is so useful].
Use a lot of dtilt. Beats her crouch, maybe links into utilt or uair or even nair [if jab hits crouch, use that too]. Bair can be used to outspace her, but you have to extremely patient and often retreating with it. It's a decent way back onstage, but it's not easy to space [when I first tried I got bair'd and fair'd and dair'd myself, but I figured ou some maneuvering tricks to make it easier... just gotta outplay them]. Use Shadow Ball or confusion or disable to turn around so you can DJ bair to help cover yourself.
Shadow Ball is a punish option - if they ever Pound, you throw it immediately. Otherwise, use it as a landing trap - you won't always get it, but the few times you do help a lot. You can also use it to edgeguard [throw it at her to make her avoid it]. You can also read airdodges with it as a followup [ex: uair, they expect fair or something and airdodge but you guessed this and shadowball her entire face (and body)].
If she ever rests, dsmash is stupidly powerful for KOing [I think full-charged will KO about 65% on most stages], but fsmash is MUCH better for damage.
Anti-air with usmash, and take her to battlefield if you can for using confusion -> usmash - it can be avoided by DJ airdodging but the timing is very strict, and if they miss it, you just react to their tech/roll and usmash her.
The MU is harder than I gave it credit for. Far from unwinnable and better than a lot of bad MUs [Ganon/Sheik is way harder for Ganondorf than this is]. Jigglypuff might win it, but I'm not convinced that it's not maybe even and just feels hard due to newness of Mewtwo + Puff being rather well-established [you can just play her like you did in other games with minor adjustments and she's still very effective].
Thor
Well-Known Member
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
No. You're just posting like you know everything about the matchup, called yourself the God of spacing (I chuckled, I'll admit), and you keep talking about these situations that 80% of the time won't happen how you want against an opponent who actually knows how to play well.
I play Jiggs. Very well. I have faced a plethora of Mewtwos on FG that actually knew what they were doing. I shit all over their day. The reverse is true as well, despite my most valiant efforts. Mewtwo can kill Jiggs with power, but Jiggs has far more options than he does.
I play Jiggs. Very well. I have faced a plethora of Mewtwos on FG that actually knew what they were doing. I shit all over their day. The reverse is true as well, despite my most valiant efforts. Mewtwo can kill Jiggs with power, but Jiggs has far more options than he does.
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
Well I ain't one for debate or discussion. Well actually I quite like discussion. But debate not so much.
To make this easier for me I take on each point that you make in order.
Why are you bringing up fox from melee? We are talking about Smash 4 in a Smash 4 discussion thread. Melee isn't applicable to Smash 4 in the slightest. All Smash games are all their own different entities and using another as a reference doesn't work to well to prove a point if that was what you were intending.
You never clarified if this puff player was actually good or not. Stating that you are fighting a local puff fighter leads me to believe he could simply be some casual player that plays smash. Especially if he apparently got hit with the spike. A good puff player knows how to dodge meteors and spikes. I have never seen Jiggs get spiked unless it was DK's fair. An easy air dodge and you're safe from all gimp moves. I'm going to assume this Puff player didn't know anything about how to play fight as puff.
Why was the puff using dair? Puff players go for fairs and bairs. You only mention stopping dair. Do you have no plans for stopping her best moves? Because believe it or not dair ain't that good. Also why would you dair teleport after a confusion. Unless you ledge cancel it you are completely vulnerable and you just put her in the air which is where she wants to be in the first place. "Gee thanks thor" Uair is slow by the time you do that move a good puff would of easily used one of her million jumps and jumped out the way and fast fall. or better yet just air dodged the move entirely. You're better off using nair if anything and I wouldn't even recommend that.
Dtilt will of course hit her if she crouch and yes, you can link it to utilt at like 0%. Real useful. Already told you jab does not hit crouch. In fact the main combos will not even work if you hit jab at all. since she is so light she flies just out of reach for any good set ups and will most likely hit you. You bring up bair again and I'll repeat to you. Bair is slow. You will not outspace jigglypuff with that bair. If shulk with his fast as hell fair and nair can get dodged by jigglypuff players than Mewtwo's bair is a breath of fresh air. Also good luck hitting a jigglypuff in the air with confusion. You either have to wait for just the right moment which may never come or just get lucky. Disable has a set knockback in air. It ain't near far enough to get someone off you. I can tell you what it is enough for. To make your opponent laugh at that lame attempt to stop them from going on the offensive.
Here's a good point. Shadow Ball IS a punish option. But do realize that pound will clank with projectiles if used right. This includes shadow ball. From what I gathered. Shadow ball is better used for mix ups as it can completely change Mewtwo's momentum and make some sick combos.
Good jigglypuffs know when to use rest. They will know when Mewtwo will die to it. And trust me he'll die early because he's super light. But yes if they somehow miss their rest punish with dsmash or better yet do a kill confirm uthrow.
This antiair thing isn't a thing sorry. usmash doesn't work that way. I played too many matches with and against mewtwo and I can honestly say it doesn't work as good as you say it does. If you hit someone with confusion they can do anything out of it. Jiggs can just jump and be out of range or better yet attack you. Plus if you miss your anitair usmash you will suffer for it.
I honestly think I learned mostly I there is to Mewtwo at the moment. And if you play online you'll see exactly how all Mewtwo players play. Because it's probably the same way I play. Furthermore, I never truly had problems with sheik players. Because, it was obvious what they wanted to do. And I read them like a book. Shieks tend to all want the same thing at the end of the day. But yes the match up is winnable but unlikely and not fun for mewtwo. I rather play palutena than play that shitty match up man. To let you know I played multiple sets against this guy regularly. I know this match up well and I know Mewtwo.
Thor
Well-Known Member
By a god of spacing I meant things were extremely tight and I was lucky. It was meant in a somewhat sarcastic manner, which wasn't really what was conveyed clearly. I'm inclined to think uair can beat out dair, but I'm not sure [have heard the tail has no hurtbox, which if true, would mean uair just beats dair].
This Puff player is fairly solid, they've made the power rankings using only Puff in Melee, PM, and Smash 4, and are generally solid at spacing people out.
And it's called offering advice - being a good player is trying to make those situations come up in order to capitalize, which usually means forcing the opponent to make a mistake.
Stopping dair is important to recovery. That's something I picked up fairly quickly [Puff can insert herself right between you and the ledge and dair and you'll be hit out of teleport, and she can keep doing this over and over with all her jumps]. It's also important to make sure she can't try to contest you as she lands. If none of the Puffs you've been doing do this, they aren't contesting your recovery properly, which leads me to wonder what else they do differently.
Be facing away from Jigglypuff when in neutral - that leaves retreating bair and confusion [to reset the situation]. You can try to also punish with retreating nairs or fair, but bair has more range in exchange for being slower [fair is frame 7, bair is frame 12, nair is frame 6].
You don't hit them with confusion, disable, or shadow ball, you b-reverse the move to turn around and set up the chance to double jump bair or reverse uair. Perhaps I should've been clearer but I thought this point was fairly obvious since I said "you do those things to turn around".
If they're clanking shadow ball with pound you're not using it when I suggested - I said if they pound, react with shadow ball. Pound seems rather mediocre [outside of shield damage and the angle being somewhat useful for gimping], but if they're using pound to beat back shadow balls then they're just doing something right.
Dsmash kills WAY earlier than uthrow. Killing them with uthrow is good if you think you'll somehow mess up dsmash spacing, but fsmash is the optimal damage dealing punish and dsmash is the optimal KO punish.
Usmash is a risky anti-air, but if you read them it can work. It's not easy, but Smash is hard. It's also best used as an anti-air when they are low on jumps or have commited to a fast-falled aerial [which should be rare, but it happens]. I'm pretty sure utilt is a more reliable anti-air, but usmash is far more rewarding.
To claim you know the MU well after less than a week is very arrogant [unless you are also being sarcastic like I was when I said the word god (which is also a joke because of my name - not sure how you all missed that...)]. People claimed Snake bodied everyone in the first weeks of Brawl because of his huge damage tilts, grenades, and "crazy-good" recovery, and there were legitimate and large-scale tournaments where top placings were all Snake, including one where the top 5 players all solo-mained Snake. Nowadays, we know Snake loses to MK, Olimar, and DDD, and many outright refuse to fight ESAM's Pikachu, having backups for it. Olimar also moved from mid-tier to near the top.
I referenced Melee because I would rather play just about any Smash MU as Mewtwo [other than maybe Pikachu or one of the other best rushdown characters like Sheik and Fox? Even then, maybe not...] than I would fight Fox as Link in Melee. It may be the hardest MU you've ever played, but if a Brawl MK main was complaining about ICs and calling it the hardest MU he'd ever played, he wouldn't have much room to complain about hard MUs. You definitely have more with Puff Mewtwo but it seems that you think this is an impossible wall to climb after less than a week. Fighting hard MUs does mean you have to be a better player, but it's not impossible.
Also the matchup is easier on battlefield due to platforms. FD seems to make this MU worse because Mewtwo's confusion doesn't work as well and he doesn't have platforms to help him maneuver or get even earlier KOs on [say somehow getting a grab on the top platform into a uthrow].
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
You really gotta stop writing novels, Thor...
There's a lot about Mewtwo that we all need to learn. If his tail doesn't have hurt boxes, that would make it better to use, but his bair I know has them, and because of his wonky jumps, he is at risk using bair as a means to get back to the stage safely (especially against someone like Falcon and his utilt.).
Jiggs simply trumps him with her mobility. Any attempt at usmash puts him at great risk because it has so much endlag, and it is so easy to just dodge through it since the hitbox isn't that large either. This leads to easy punishes or even a rest, which kills Mewtwo so early.
The matchup may be early and new things could be found to put it more in his favor, but I'm arguing experience over theoreticals. He has options that you'd think would work better for him in situations, but when put to practice, it doesn't work as well. I've tried using what you've been explaining long before you explained it, and it just doesn't work consistently enough for him. I'm looking for things he can rely on to bring the match to be more favorable.
There's a lot about Mewtwo that we all need to learn. If his tail doesn't have hurt boxes, that would make it better to use, but his bair I know has them, and because of his wonky jumps, he is at risk using bair as a means to get back to the stage safely (especially against someone like Falcon and his utilt.).
Jiggs simply trumps him with her mobility. Any attempt at usmash puts him at great risk because it has so much endlag, and it is so easy to just dodge through it since the hitbox isn't that large either. This leads to easy punishes or even a rest, which kills Mewtwo so early.
The matchup may be early and new things could be found to put it more in his favor, but I'm arguing experience over theoreticals. He has options that you'd think would work better for him in situations, but when put to practice, it doesn't work as well. I've tried using what you've been explaining long before you explained it, and it just doesn't work consistently enough for him. I'm looking for things he can rely on to bring the match to be more favorable.
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
Eh i'm stopping this here. I assure you i'm not arrogant as much as you aren't a god at spacing. As I said I don't like debate.
If you want me to care any further than this you can just send replays of your matches to people and just have them look them over. Saying they're a solid player and showing they are. Are two very different things. I think that would be the best way to prove your point. You can find most of everyone's NNID on the matchmaking thread. If you're curious why I don't just show people replays of me getting bodied is mostly because I didn't save them and I have to receive them from a friend. And they are all on the 3DS.
I already stated that I have been playing and practicing Mewtwo nonstop. Next you'll tell me the Toon LInk-Rosalina isn't a horrible match up for Toon Link. You just have to outspace her and luma with ftilt. Yeah that'll save the match up. I do not think it's an impossible match up. I can certainly reread my post and learn that I even said it's winnable. I just said it wasn't fun and I rather not deal with it.
If there was some development that suddenly changed the Mewtwo meta i'm sure i'll admit. "Oh man I sure was wrong the Jiggypuff match up is easy" But there isn't Jigglypuff meta has not changed in the slightest and Mewtwo does not have much to go against it. Smash 4 meta doesn't really change until someone plays new characters. People realized bowser was good than didn't play anyone else. So of course everyone thought he was overpowered. Than people played little mac and he was overpowered. But when the real overpowered rose that's when the meta changed. There was saving yourself from a diddy hoo hah. Rosalina shits on a lot of the cast. Shiek and ZSS destroys people. Because of that suddenly everyone is a diddy main or a shiek main. Then they realize Luigi is good, Pac Man is good. Olimar was always good. It's just that no one played them.
But I digress, I'm not up for talking about this anymore. I can hardly bair it.
If you want me to care any further than this you can just send replays of your matches to people and just have them look them over. Saying they're a solid player and showing they are. Are two very different things. I think that would be the best way to prove your point. You can find most of everyone's NNID on the matchmaking thread. If you're curious why I don't just show people replays of me getting bodied is mostly because I didn't save them and I have to receive them from a friend. And they are all on the 3DS.
I already stated that I have been playing and practicing Mewtwo nonstop. Next you'll tell me the Toon LInk-Rosalina isn't a horrible match up for Toon Link. You just have to outspace her and luma with ftilt. Yeah that'll save the match up. I do not think it's an impossible match up. I can certainly reread my post and learn that I even said it's winnable. I just said it wasn't fun and I rather not deal with it.
If there was some development that suddenly changed the Mewtwo meta i'm sure i'll admit. "Oh man I sure was wrong the Jiggypuff match up is easy" But there isn't Jigglypuff meta has not changed in the slightest and Mewtwo does not have much to go against it. Smash 4 meta doesn't really change until someone plays new characters. People realized bowser was good than didn't play anyone else. So of course everyone thought he was overpowered. Than people played little mac and he was overpowered. But when the real overpowered rose that's when the meta changed. There was saving yourself from a diddy hoo hah. Rosalina shits on a lot of the cast. Shiek and ZSS destroys people. Because of that suddenly everyone is a diddy main or a shiek main. Then they realize Luigi is good, Pac Man is good. Olimar was always good. It's just that no one played them.
But I digress, I'm not up for talking about this anymore. I can hardly bair it.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I didn't really read this post except the last part.
I'll just stop arguing about Mewtwo. I'll just play him more, hopefully generate some replays, and either offer the Puff or the boards some advice on fighting Mewtwo or Jiggs respectively. We don't have many Jiggs though so that will possibly take a while unless a Smashfest is held.
Good luck endeavoring to win. I like the pun in the last sentence.
Thor
Well-Known Member
So I love fighting Villager with Mewtwo because nair clanks out Villager's fair and bair, and you can reflect bowling balls for ridiculous damage if you get the read [yes it's hard but it's super funny]. Are there other trains of thought on this MU or does Mewtwo win it as I suspect?
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Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
It's a tough call. villager is scary as fuck in the right hands and can combo pretty hard. Even if mewtwo can reflect the bowling ball, villager just has so much stuff he can bait him with. All those nair chains, he can halt mewtwo if he tries to recover high, and like everyone else, he's at risk recovering low (unless using confusion sends trees and balls back UP at villager. That would be fucking amazing.)
Even if M2's nair clashes with fair, killager can still poke for days. On top of that, he pockets shadow ball, putting M2 in an even worse spot, especially if he reflects it and it gets pocketed again.
Even if M2's nair clashes with fair, killager can still poke for days. On top of that, he pockets shadow ball, putting M2 in an even worse spot, especially if he reflects it and it gets pocketed again.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Oh I didn't bother with shadow balls much, since it would seem Villager can't effectively camp with, well, anything [fair, bair, lloid is easily jumped or reflected, etc.]. Also, nair seems to do an amazing job of popping Villagers balloons [hit him out once or twice, then DJ rising nair and Villager seems to say good night]. I'm unclear on what you expect Villager to poke with - none of his tilts are long-range, his jab and smashes are all also short-range, so all you have to do is approach with SH nairs [can approach or retreat, all you have to do is jump when the Villager does, then approach with them to hit Villager as he lands or retreat to avoid putting yourself in Villager's grounded range] and it doesn't seem like he has any option but to run at you along the ground or approach with nair. You can also just sort of laugh at trees.
In Brawl DX, Mewtwo has a small hitbox at the end of the teleport to prevent ledgehogs. But that's not an issue in Smash 4 so w/e.