Suggestions for changes to C. Falcon's taunts

[Bent 00]

CF is a high tier, maybe top tier (I'd have to actually analyze a bunch of stuff and look at gameplay), but he's not nearly as beaten back as you make him out to be.

I suggested those two changes more to make Falcon a little more interesting and fun to play, not because he needed them (he doesn't).

Also, posting 208 times or whatever doesn't mean your idea will be listened to if you present the same thing for the same reason over and over again. It just means you'll irritate the devs.

I wasn't trying to irritate anyone; I was confident that my ideas were good, but thought I must not be pitching them well enough, so I kept at it, trying to refute any reasons why they were bad ideas.

Nothing else left to say about that...

 

[Thor]

He might be more fun to play, but way less fun to play against, which was the key problem - like, Brawl MK is fun to play against people who are about as good as you, because you can do whatever and go for silly stuff, but at the same time can be awful to play against - that's why he's #1.

 

[Bent 00]

Two things about Falcon's side taunt that I was reminded about while playing Minus with friends tonight, and testing things on my own:

1.) It already has a cancel window at the very end of it; in fact, all of Falcon's taunts do, except left-facing down taunt. You can cancel them into any other move, including themselves. However, the window of opportunity for this is very small -- only a few frames. Side taunt cannot be cancelled until after Falcon has finished saying "Come on" and completed his hand gesture.
2.) The "Falcon Force", or the little pull, actually does have a use, although it's only a comedic one: If your opponent's shield is broken or they're otherwise stunned, you can pull them right up to you, taunt again, and PAWNCH them.

I also found out that a slow-mo air-to-ground instant PAWNCH is awesome when you land one. It's basically a regular Falcon Punch in that it has the mini hitboxes as well as the final one, but Falcon doesn't warn the foe with "FALCON..." and it feels great when you KO with it.

Anyhow, those first two things make me no longer want the Falcon Force to be removed from side taunt. If you could make the pull effect only happen if side taunt is held (not tapped), that would be ideal.

I'd like to see the cancel window at the end of side taunt open at frame 90 instead of frame 99.. It currently opens right as Falcon begins retracting his arm (frame 99). Please widen the window to the frame in which his hand stops moving after the second wrist motion (frame 90).

The "Falcon Force" pull effect's hitbox should be widened on Falcon's end, just a little. The pull effect won't work on an opponent that is just barely out of Falcon's grab range.

That is all I'll ask for Falcon's side taunt.

(I still think giving it super armor would be great too, but no one else agrees with that...)

Reverting Falcon's side taunt back to vBrawl actually makes it even worse than it is now. At least now it's funny to use when you break someone's shield.

As for up taunt, how about just making Falcon say the quiet "Yess" if it's not cancelled into Falcon's secret taunt? Perhaps he should only say that if up taunt is held, not tapped...

That's about as minimal as it gets for suggested changes.

 

[NEWB]

Those are changes that I agree with.

How come it won't grab if it cancels into sheild?

 

[Bent 00]

Those are changes that I agree with.

How come it won't grab if it cancels into sheild?

I only tried cancelling it into a Z button grab, since I never grab using Shield+A... I'll try that.

You can't use the Z button to grab unless side taunt is completely over.

EDIT: This is incorrect. What was happening to me was that I was hitting Z a little too early, before the cancel window opened, and my finger was still pressing Z when it did open, so I shielded instead of grabbing.

 

[justadood]

i've been saying that if it was shield cancellable, it would be ideal, because you can either dodge or grab out of that, and although i meant it should be able to be cancelled in the middle, i didn't know it could be shield cancelled near the end/a little early, and the fact that it can be is great news... i haven't really noticed...

((this might be off topic, but could ganon's armor be moved from his sword taunt to his pounding fist taunt?? i just feel like it'd fit a little better, and this could free up the sword taunt to maybe eventually be used for a "sword mode" if one is ever made or if incorporated...))

 

[Bent 00]

I did some more testing and found out that all of Falcon's taunts except left-facing down taunt have very small cancel windows at the end of their animations.

I revised my last two posts to reflect this.

 

[NEWB]

It sounded like the devs weren't at all interested in a sword moveset for Ganon. I personally don't see it as fitting better either.

I would rather get the sword to clang with everything to create mixups, but this isn't really useful, just a little cool IMO. Otherwise, it definitely makes more sense to have a blocking taunt block attacks. I don't see the logic in having his fist pounding taunt gain invincibility. That's just what tough guys do before they kick your ass.

 

[Bent 00]

Random idea: You know how if Falcon uses an Instant Falcon Punch in the air, and immediately lands before the hitbox comes out, he'll do a kinda weird slow-mo regular Falcon Punch, except with no flaming falcon graphic effect and without saying "Falcon..."?

I figure this is a glitch, but if it can't be fixed so that the Instant Falcon Punch fires properly in this instance, how about making this bug a "feature" instead, by enhancing the slow-mo effect somehow? Considering that this uses up Falcon's charge, but fires a PAWNCH that is only graphically and audibly (not functionally) different from the regular version, a bit of polish would be nice, if that's even possible.

It's cool landing it as-is, but I bet it could be even better. I landed it once to finish a match, and it was the highlight of that night's games.

A functional idea: If you can't keep it from turning into a full Falcon Punch when landed in this way, how about giving Falcon super armor for the move's very brief duration (windup and all)? Imagine this: Falcon's opponent is on the ropes, recovering from a near-fatal Knee. The foe begins to crawl back onto the ledge with an attack, but Falcon predicts this and fires the special slow-mo Falcon Punch! The foe's get-up attack does not flinch Falcon, and the Punch finds its target: "Don-don-don-PAWNCH!!"

I also hope Falcon's quiet "Yess" is implemented into Minus in some way, eventually.

These have been yet more of Bent 00's suggestions for trivial things which will probably never be included in Minus. ' v '

 

[Pin Clock]

Unfortunately we can't do anything involving the air-to-ground issues of Minus moves. If we could, all issues related to them would be fixed immediately. This means we're unable to turn the air-to-ground-charge-punch-thing-a-ma-doo-hickey into a "feature" either.

 

[Bent 00]

Ah, too bad. Could you make the slo-mo Punch not use up Falcon's charge?

 

[Pin Clock]

We literally can't do anything with it. There was a thread about this specific bug affecting Shiek, DK, and Ike badly too.

 

[Bent 00]

Which moves of theirs are affected? Got a link to that thread? I'd like to read more about it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

All their B charges. DK has a super fast charge in the air (but normal on ground, for whatever reason), Sheik's needles slow down to vbrawl charge time if she's still charging when she lands, and Ike's eruption charge flat out resets when he lands.

 

[Thor]

Actually, couldn't you just add armor to the sped-up Pawnch in general? And then that would still have some armor on the slowed-down supposed-to-be-sped-up Pawnch too? Admittedly, there might be a problem giving fast Falcon Pawnch armor... (it'd be like a counter-attack then... Pawnch right through a dangerous attack and lash back out for huge damage/knockback) or does this shift to the ground actually affect the properties of the move so that giving it armor would still cause the grounded slowed Pawnch to lack armor? It would sort of lessen the issue of wasted charges because they won't all of the sudden have an extra second or so to hit Falcon out of the Pawnch animation, but only dodge it...

The DK charge speed thing (faster in the air) is intentional, Sheik's is I think [I think she fast-charges when just on the ground, if not then it's not a glitch], Ike's is a glitch.

EDIT: On the subject of taunts, they really are intended for after the KO... the original name of them in the Smash 64 manual was "Finishing pose" http://www.gamesdbase.com/Media/SYS...mated/Super_Smash_Bros._-_1999_-_Nintendo.pdf so they were put in as a taunt to the opponent that you'd KO'd them, as I'd mentioned earlier... though the Minus team could obviously change the use (and has for a few taunts), this is Sakurai's intent, for what it's worth.

 

[NEWB]

Anything from way back then holds no meaning now, as they are called and referred to as taunts now. Taunts are just made to get people to approach you. Why do people not understand this? This happens in life in general during discussions too and adds more character to the character and the player.

Sheik normaly charges fast needles on the ground.

 

[Bent 00]

Random fun idea: Make Falcon's "Show me ya Moves" hitboxes reflect projectiles.

The hitboxes come out so late, that an opponent would have to be careless to get their projectile reflected by them.

If this idea is rejected, please just remove the hitboxes on Down Taunt.

 

[Thor]

Random fun idea: Make Falcon's "Show me ya Moves" hitboxes reflect projectiles.

The hitboxes come out so late, that an opponent would have to be careless to get their projectile reflected by them.

If this idea is rejected, please just remove the hitboxes on Down Taunt.

You missed out on where Doq got a shield-break on Gold_TSG via Falcon Punch, but instead of immediately following up with a second Falcon Punch, he down-taunted.

The taunt hitbox hit Gold_TSG, freeing him from shield-break status.

I think it should stay in.

Actually, I think Falcon is just about perfect as is. I wouldn't mind seeing his up+b get invulnerability frames while hugging someone, so that he's not hit out of it in FFAs (and being protected from grabs during Falcon Punch), but otherwise I think he's a well-rounded, strong, but fairly balanced Minus Character.

 

[Bent 00]

You missed out on where Doq got a shield-break on Gold_TSG via Falcon Punch, but instead of immediately following up with a second Falcon Punch, he down-taunted.

The taunt hitbox hit Gold_TSG, freeing him from shield-break status.

I think it should stay in.

Nah, I heard about that from Doq. It's happened to me several times too; I like to D-Taunt then S-Taunt after a Shield Break.

As-is, because of that hitbox, Falcon's D-Taunt is worse than it was in vBrawl IMO -- not very Minusy, that.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

I cried so much

http://gfycat.com/RemorsefulPositiveIsopod

 

[Gold_TSG]

Random fun idea: Make Falcon's "Show me ya Moves" hitboxes reflect projectiles.

The hitboxes come out so late, that an opponent would have to be careless to get their projectile reflected by them.

If this idea is rejected, please just remove the hitboxes on Down Taunt.

I actually tried to do that myself, but apparently there is no way to up and give people reflective properties. The devs know the technical mumbo jumbo better than me.

 

[Bent 00]

Too bad. Perhaps Falcon's hand could just cancel out projectiles instead of reflect them?

 

[Gold_TSG]

You would have to increase the damage on it to do that, I think. When I played around with flags and such, I managed to get the hitbox to clang, but was always beaten by the projectile.

 

[NEWB]

Project m and even zues I believe have shields that reflect like they did in melee. Not saying your wrong gold but it is probably possible.

 

[Gold_TSG]

They have special codes implemented to replicate melee. I'm talking about singular attacks. Again, I've discussed this with our resident coder genius Sammi, and it's otherwise impossible to simply give people reflection.