Suggestions for changes to C. Falcon's taunts

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

The problem with this these kind of secret taunts aren't meant to be used in actual play...at least not in a really useful way.

It wouldn't be a secret taunt, but a standard one. As for taunts not being useful -- what about Metal Mario, Bat Mode Ness, Jigglypuff's Gravity, Toon Link's Wind Waker, Link's Mortal Draw, and D.K.'s healing taunt? All are useful standard taunts.

If you're keeping all of those in, giving Falcon this would be appropriate.

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Spoiler

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I don't get taunts anymore

Devs?

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Metal Mario, falcon, and lucario all have secret taunts, and none of them are supposed to be a particularly great idea to use in battle.

incidentally, we already acknowledge that some characters have useful taunts that have very little downside to using them. Links mortal draw is never ACTUALLY supposed to hit in a real match. if it did consistently in any way, we would nerf it i assure you.

wind waker has no applicable purpose in battle either aside from pusing people too close to him. but it doesn't help him in any way in battle.

Metal mario is an exception to the usefulness for all the reasons we mentioned in the other thread. While it isn't supposed to be exceptionally useful, It has a very limited role at this point and for all we know at this point, it may even have less of a role in the next update.

Bat modes taunt itself does absolutely nothing for him, it changes his moveset, and then THOSE moves become the benefit. not the taunt. If it spawned a bat he could throw, then it would be different because something like that gives a distinct advantage over the other character, where switching modes does not. mainly because when he uses bat mode, it doesn't ADD anything to him. it just changes things.

The two i can agree with that are exceptionally useful are Gravity, and D.K's healing taunt. We nerfed Lucario's because it was too useful. The secret taunts (mostly) are easter eggs, not something we add to characters to give them more options.

I'm not saying your ideas bad bro, im just saying that it isn't necessary and it goes against what the general consensus that surrounds the secret taunts But you do have alot of good points, so don't get me wrong

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

actually, i use tl's windwaker to stop people from recovering, and it works beautifully... also, fox's "here i come!" taunt doesn't get the credit that as a fake out, it's at least usable.. and jigglypuff's deflate taunt also has some use, believe it or not... especially when her final smash leaves her giant, which happens on the bridge of eldin, and since snake's land mines (down a, not down b) can hurt "invulnerable" people, it actually interrupts her fs and leaves her giant at the size she is when she's hurt, which i guess is a glitch due to snake's mines being made to be able to hit people shielding, but has technically been around since vbrawl, so whatever, but basically at her giant size, her deflate taunt does so much air push that it can be spammed and used to keep killing so super quickly, that it's more useful than any ATTACKS she has... and it also is useful to edge guard without this, tbh... and the real reason falcon should/or at least could have this is that currently, his "come on" actually not only leaves him wide open, but pull opponents in so it works against him i mean i get that his Pawnch is well enough, but if this was just shield cancellable, then atleast you could gurad attacks, and shield grabbing would come as something shielding in turn would cancel into, but tbh, if he cn grab, then he doesn't necessarily NEED to be able to shield, because this way he could already guard against close range attacks, but at the same time, since he isn't shielding, the longer ranged attacks like projectiles, zsamus's whip, or even mario's side smash would out range him, so the opponents should still be able to stay relatively safe if this was put in... my argument is that this doe NOT sound like it could be over-powered like it seems you are suggesting just a kind of safety line for if his taunt backlashes, so it's kind of worth the risk of leaving yourself open and bringing your opponents toward you... plus this would definitely add to falcon's dynamic built around closing spacing

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

i think you misunderstand what i meant. I wasn't saying that it would be OP in any way. I was saying that generally taunts aren't meant to have a significant role in the characters moveset. In fact, he already has a super taunt that powers up his Pawnch. Giving him two actually useful in battle taunts wouldn't be a fair thing to do.

Again though, my argument more then anything else is that taunts are not meant to be useful in combat in a significant way. Metal mario and DK's healing are an exception to that rule and its not even on purpose lol. and as a result, MM has gotten nerfed ALOT to make it more an easter egg then anything. however, as people have stated, it is still a bit too useful and the urge to go MM and get massive bonuses FAR outweighs the reasons NOT to at least try to go MM.

Falcon already has a super taunt, and he doesn't need another really. The main reason im against it is that the secret taunts are meant to be easter eggs, cannon, or just simply silly. But not really useful otherwise it becomes a MOVE in itself. Which most of the time has not been the objective.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Falcon is fine as he is, sans the complaint about his air side B I made a while ago. If anyone needs help with zoning, it's Ike and Marth.

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Again, I just think it puts you at a greater disadvantage than regular taunts because it pulls foes closer, and I think he should be able to cancel it..

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

At minimum, just being able to cancel Falcon's Side Taunt would make it much more useful.

Can we at least get that?

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I'm all for it. Cancel into what though?

 

[Thor]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

How about his rapid jabs? Not exactly a useful cancel because further combo potential is low, but useful because it still ultimately helps Falcon close the distance.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I'm all for it. Cancel into what though?

Anything. I want to use the Falcon Force to pull unsuspecting opponents into grabs, Knees, and PAWNCHES.

 

[Glyph]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Even if this did cancel, you'd still have to be up against someone who was just sitting there doing nothing for a good like second and a half for the pull to start working. It wouldn't take long for your opponent to figure out he just needs to jump when that taunt starts and you'd be left hitting air.

What I'm saying is if you want to buff this taunt, you're going about it the wrong way by saying you want it to -just- cancel at the end. On that subject, I think the only thing that would be worth cancelling into without being obscenely strong would be a nice ol' fashion grab. Sets up for finishes, but still isn't a guaranteed anything beyond like 10% or so depending on how well you can read your opponent's DI.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I'm still having a hard time visualizing how this would work, as being there in his long taunt pulling opponents toward him seems rather counter-productive. Projectile users would have to do nothing but shoot him with something, or use the pull momentum against him by short hopping during the pull and attack him, just like I enjoy doing to Mario and his Fludd pull. The difference there, though, is that Mario has a better chance of pulling it off cause his comes out much faster than Falcon's taunt.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I'd much rather see Falcon's side taunt buffed extensively, like I detailed in the first post.

However, if the devs are against that, just making it cancellable would be better than not changing it at all.

 

[justadood]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

What I'm saying is if you want to buff this taunt, you're going about it the wrong way by saying you want it to -just- cancel at the end. On that subject, I think the only thing that would be worth cancelling into without being obscenely strong would be a nice ol' fashion grab. Sets up for finishes, but still isn't a guaranteed anything beyond like 10% or so depending on how well you can read your opponent's DI.

i did say earlier that i thought it should be grab cancellable maybe the best idea would be shield cancellable, so you can dodge OR grab... this would be extremely more useful

 

[Thor]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Links mortal draw is never ACTUALLY supposed to hit in a real match. if it did consistently in any way, we would nerf it i assure you.

Works pretty consistently in 2v1s in teams where your opponent ground releases someone or throws them at you with non-DIable throws like King Dedede's dthrow pretty consistently... does this need a nerf?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

The one in that scenario is screwed regardless if the two have good synch with each other. There wouldn't be a nerf for that situation, cause the exact same scenario can happen for a Dorf Pawnch, and that is also an insta-kill, and that won't be nerfed for 2v1 situations.

 

[Thor]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

The Link taunt teams thing was sort of a joke...

Falcon already has a useful taunt in his ultrataunt (pretty sure ultrataunted punch is guaranteed from dthrow) and mostly solid MUs... I don't think buffing his other taunts right now is a top priority...

Someone have some footage showing me why he gets zoned so badly? I haven't seen any matches of this going down, but the ROB I play usually has problems keeping me out when I'm CF XD

 

[Gold_TSG]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I can't see how he gets zoned due to his mobility and speed.

 

[Bent 00]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

R.O.B., Ivysaur, and Samus can zone the heck outta Falcon. Watch some of Glyph's matches against my Falcon. ._.

Anyhow, who's against making his side taunt cancellable? That alone won't make a big difference in Falcon overall --- it would just make side taunt actually useable occasionally.

Sonic and a few other characters can cancel their taunts. Letting Falcon cancel ONE isn't asking for much.

 

[NEWB]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I agree about canceling the taunt. I don't want the vacuum effect removed cuz it's cool, but it's impractical now.

I don't mind that falcon is disadvantaged against those guys. Matchups.

That being said, the devs do look at matchups the best they can right? Is there anyone you guys think are generally mismatched against a lot of people?

 

[Sammi-husky]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Generally we do our best to remove situations where match-ups are completely lopsided in the favor of one party. Off the top of my head i can't think of any glaring match-up issues that we've missed. at least not ones that fall under completely one sided. I'ts not gonna be possible to completely eliminate match-ups as i'm sure you all know, but we do our best to remove things that are mostly not fun to play against.

Please continue to let us know your opinions and whatnot~ but possibly on a diff thread, as this ones meant for falcons side-taunt

 

[Thor]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

I found a match and stuff actually didn't look AWFUL for the good Captain. In the one I watched (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6ZypBFw6dM), you even pulled even before ROB just went off. That said, you seemed to Falcon Punch quite a bit in this... not sure if that's such a good option.

I'll look for other stuff but I'm not seeing dominace on the part of ROB - it's annoying to get in, but it looks more annoying in a Brawl Pikachu vs Marth sense, not in the way it would be if Marth's sword were 50% longer-ranged in that same MU.

This one's probably more what you were thinking of, but I don't know... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT7UU3jVoFc

I think Falcon actually needs to go back to his Brawl roots and jab a lot in this MU, based on what I saw, and probably look for a lot of uairs. I think Falcon kick also appears pretty good (at least, I think in clanks with gyros, which might help the problems some?)

 

[Pin Clock]

Re: Idea: Buff Falcon's Side Taunt to help him not get zoned

Generally we do our best to remove situations where match-ups are completely lopsided in the favor of one party. Off the top of my head i can't think of any glaring match-up issues that we've missed. at least not ones that fall under completely one sided. I'ts not gonna be possible to completely eliminate match-ups as i'm sure you all know, but we do our best to remove things that are mostly not fun to play against.

Please continue to let us know your opinions and whatnot~ but possibly on a diff thread, as this ones meant for falcons side-taunt

To provide examples of such match-ups, I will site two examples from the history of Brawl Minus that had to have character adjustments designed to balance out MUs.

From 1.6 was Bowser vs. Fox. 1.6 Bowser is a very different monster from the grappler we know today. He used to possess an armor of 10% all the time. As in, he would not take any knockback from attacks that did less than 10%. Problem was ALL of Fox's attacks, outside of his Smash attacks, do less than 10%, making Bowser only affected by Fox's Smashes and grabs, giving the King of Koopas the obvious advantage. For 2.0, this was fixed by rebuilding Bowser from scratch, with armor only on specific moves instead of all the time.

And 2.x.6, which I'm sure is commonly known, is Bowser vs. Zelda. This time, however, Bowser was on the receiving end, being unable to do anything about Zelda's powerful ranged attacks and strong combos taking advantage of Bowser's gigantic hurtboxes. Zelda had a million ways to keep herself safe from his range, but Koopa 0 ways to get in. This was fixed with a simple adjustment of two properties: The weakening of the damage on Zelda's ranged hitboxes, and the increase in strength of Bowser's armor on the animations that had them so he could get in easier.

with 40 characters and a few experimental builds, the potential for these MUs can come up every once in a while, but it's thankfully rare and unlikely to come up again. Match-Up discussion is something I've always been fond of discussing, and is rather encouraged, to prevent the existence of more MUs like these.