Link Getting Helm Splitter

[Kien]

This has been a really long time coming, as we've had the animation prepared for a long enough time. It's even in his Motion already.

But the problem with the move, is that it wouldn't be too effective following up shield bash because of small characters. There's been talk about making it his down throw or his back throw.

Do either of those sound appealing? Should it be it's own move? If so, Link might be getting a spike for a change.

 

[gumbie]

Back throw or forward aerial. The flip would look pretty cool in the air and spike on sweet spot.

 

[Glyph]

I think its really cool to see new moves going into the game, but I do gotta say I'm surprised Link is the one getting work done now.

 

[13131]

there's a long line of characters in need of some positive additions/tweaks ahead of Link.

 

[NEWB]

It would be cool if link got a spike, but he doesn't need it. If you pick the right attack to replace so that he gains something good and loses something good to break even, then do it. Otherwise, make it a grab.

Is there anyway you can make small characters get hit differently? Small characters have always been better on link because they can duck under arrows, so maybe they can just be counter picks to link?

I don't know. Does link have a broken grab that people would like to see removed in favor of an awesome attack if that is the case? The right attack needs to be removed to make it work.

 

[NEWB]

As much as other characters need tweaking or additions too, all those things will get done in time. If this has been worked on for awhile, let them finish it so they can work on other things. We don't have enough people to work on 40ish characters, so let them knock things out one at a time so there can be progress.

 

[13131]

back throw or ftilt!

i understand it's been around a while and i'm sure it will be pretty cool...
i guess reading this thread after seeing the 'let's nerf sheik' thread made me cranky.

 

[NEWB]

I would rather he lost ftilts then back throw. Ftilt1 could function as sheild bash, so ftilt2 could be helm splitter. Sheild bash is a fast attack, so it could be a tilt. It would be nice if it knocked oncoming projectiles away. I mean not reflect them, but send them way over his head, or at his feet, or even at a diagonal going up i front of him.

Or the attack could just block all projectiles like the sheild already does, but all frontal ones. Give the attack end lag so it's not spam able. It should also ignore sheilds obviously.

 

[Kien]

Ftilt... you know I never even thought of that... Not sure how it would feel, but it does seem somewhat fitting. Since the moves are supposed to chain anyway. Although I don't see it working as a spike if put on Ftilt 2.


Yes, I know Link is already near top tier to those of you wondering why he'd be getting this move. I don't see it as a buff, but as an alteration. As for a reply to the nerfing of Sheik, she completely needs a nerf to make her fair to play against. It won't be a hard nerf either. Sometimes a single nerf is all it takes to fix things though. ROB will also be getting one of those weak nerfs.

 

[Glyph]

Ftilt... you know I never even thought of that... Not sure how it would feel, but it does seem somewhat fitting. Since the moves are supposed to chain anyway. Although I don't see it working as a spike if put on Ftilt 2.


Yes, I know Link is already near top tier to those of you wondering why he'd be getting this move. I don't see it as a buff, but as an alteration. As for a reply to the nerfing of Sheik, she completely needs a nerf to make her fair to play against. It won't be a hard nerf either. Sometimes a single nerf is all it takes to fix things though. ROB will also be getting one of those weak nerfs.

Two things:

Why does link get 'alterations' when ROB gets nerfs?

Also, I maintain that other ROBs CANNOT do what I do with ROB. I guess I should have clarified against someone who knows how to play a ROB. If someone's ROB can consistently beat owo's Ganon or Bent's Falcon (and I mean consistently), then yes ROB needs nerfs. If not, then please please don't make the character worse because I took the time to learn how to play him effectively.

 

[13131]

you do play a really good ROB.

but if they knew how to play ROB, they wouldn't pick Ganon or Falcon.

i played a lot of ROB in vbrawl. had a lot of success against most characters, and the people i play with are no slouches.

got pretty decent with this ROB before most victories started to feel... kind of unsatisfying. and yes, i know how to pressure/trap with gyros, cancel side-b into the appropriate aerial (or a freaky glitch escape), chase with fair, and sharpshoot with the laser, among other things. and i play against a good LInk who, though surprised at first (and beat badly for a long string of matches), knows what to expect now. and still loses most matches, matches that are much closer now. Link being Link and all.

that said, if ROB (who i play/ed) and Sheik (who i play, if that wasn't obvious) get weak nerfs, it might make sense to start some discussions on Link and Lucario (who i play). small as this forum community is, these seem to be the characters most agree are a tad too broken.. and slight fixes to the top and bottom of the list might bring everyone closer together faster.

but only if these nerfs and buffs are in fact weak/just enough/balanced. i'd hate to see any changes that effectively ruin a character..

 

[Glyph]

This isn't vBrawl ROB at all, and I didn't say those two characters because they have a great matchup against ROB (though I don't think they have a particularly bad matchup either), I said it because those are the characters they've done the best with against me. They're learning the proper places to DI to and how to combo ROB as well.

Do you have any replays of your ROB you could send me?

 

[Kien]

Ftilt... you know I never even thought of that... Not sure how it would feel, but it does seem somewhat fitting. Since the moves are supposed to chain anyway. Although I don't see it working as a spike if put on Ftilt 2.


Yes, I know Link is already near top tier to those of you wondering why he'd be getting this move. I don't see it as a buff, but as an alteration. As for a reply to the nerfing of Sheik, she completely needs a nerf to make her fair to play against. It won't be a hard nerf either. Sometimes a single nerf is all it takes to fix things though. ROB will also be getting one of those weak nerfs.

Two things:

Why does link get 'alterations' when ROB gets nerfs?

Also, I maintain that other ROBs CANNOT do what I do with ROB. I guess I should have clarified against someone who knows how to play a ROB. If someone's ROB can consistently beat owo's Ganon or Bent's Falcon (and I mean consistently), then yes ROB needs nerfs. If not, then please please don't make the character worse because I took the time to learn how to play him effectively.

Don't make it sound so spiteful. Link's alteration has been in development since the beginning of MAX but no one thought to look into his motionfile. He's also easier to balance than characters like ROB because no one in the backroom uses ROB. I'm a Link main so I can effectively nerf or buff him to fairness to nearly any knowledgeable matchup. Currently, Link has advantages over pretty much any character who is SLOWER than he is, or that LACKS PROJECTILES. He is also very easy to juggle and chain grab for some characters, DI aside due to his fall speed and weight.

Whereas Sheik has basically no disadvantages aside of her weight and being easy to KO. ROB has no disadvantages that I can see at all. Regardless of how many ROB players are as skilled as you are, it's completely obvious that just having those tools at his disposal makes him one of the biggest threats in Minus. He can shutdown approaches, reflect projectiles, has a killing projectile that he can aim and true combo into from the stun, etc. Anything else I could say should be on the tier list discussion.

 

[Glyph]

Wow I didn't realize how nasty that post sounded until I went back and looked at it again.

I'm sorry, didn't mean to come across that way. The one thing I will say is ROB's projectile does not true combo, as your opponent's DI impacts your aim (meaning you can miss). I've been very frustrated with the idea of ROB getting nerfs that I really do not see any need for when I know for a fact that players can deal with and beat them if they take the time to learn how to play against it, but that's no excuse for losing my cool.

 

[Kien]

Wow I didn't realize how nasty that post sounded until I went back and looked at it again.

I'm sorry, didn't mean to come across that way. The one thing I will say is ROB's projectile does not true combo, as your opponent's DI impacts your aim (meaning you can miss). I've been very frustrated with the idea of ROB getting nerfs that I really do not see any need for when I know for a fact that players can deal with and beat them if they take the time to learn how to play against it, but that's no excuse for losing my cool.

You're fine. I know what it's like to feel like someone is getting undeserved special treatment. It's very likely that Link's splitter will be either put into his moveset as a Down Throw, or if everyone is fine with it, to replace his side tilt combo. I could code either one so I may have a poll.

 

[Queso2469]

I always prefered the tilt to the new smash and would hate to see it go. I don't even know what the down throw is at the moment so I wouldn't miss it.

 

[Kien]

I always prefered the tilt to the new smash and would hate to see it go. I don't even know what the down throw is at the moment so I wouldn't miss it.

The down throw is the elbow drop. Same as Toon Link's but not as useful. It's what I'd prefer to replace.

 

[NEWB]

Dthrow true combos with upb sometimes and leads it can chain grab. It's okay if he loses this though if helm splitter can actually spike, or if the move deals high damage and no knockback.

 

[Kien]

I don't feel like Link needs a chain grab at all. Any other true combos into Up B.

 

[NEWB]

Maybe up tilt or dtilt at zero percent? also it doesn't always true combo with upb. Sometimes the grab functions like vbrawl and sometimes it sends foes up. Normaly I'd think they were Diing, but the difference is very drastic to me.

Earlier versions of the chain hit people up when they were on the ground. Old ftilt also comboed with upb.

And yeah, even though it's kinda cool, he really doesn't need a chain grab. That's something combo characters get, which is mostly everyone else.

 

[justadood]

mentioned this on the "suggestions for brawl minus max 3.1" topic:

i thought the finishing blow should have been a forward throw to begin with :/ we could have just made the down air, which already looks like the finishing blow, able to hit grounded foes easier, then the forward throw could have a special input in order to use finishing blow, but i didn't really need it as a seperate move... another idea is to give the dash short hop more horizontal momentum and make the forward air do an over head slice if A is pressed and the helm splitter if held, then short hopping out of a dash could connect to the fiishing blow down air, the jump attack (not to be confused with the jumping strike), or the helm splitter if you jump high enough for it... there was another page for link to have a helm splitter, and it just occurred to me that these could be combined to have the same kind of input, and since the finishing blow animation could already be used this way in the air, so why not change the input?.. i know it's a lot different than what you guys are talking about, but this way, you could control the distance this move covers, as well as use it while leaping off a ledge to punish people trying to recover.... one thing i was going to say about the helm splitter being the forward air (hold A) was that it could give some momentum diagonally forward and can be used immediately after leaving the ground to get foes like kirby, or at the height of the jump to catch taller foes like ganondorf, and also be used as a recovery thanks to its forward momentum, but maybe have endlag so it isn't as helpful as samus's.... anyway, these are just ideas that incorporate what i've heard people would like, and using methods that feel like they were straight from their original game... for instance in zelda games, the jump attack could be used after leaping off a ledge, the helm splitter is used AFTER he already leaps up and over his opponents head, and although the finishing blow automatically makes you jump at the opponent (and to be fair, so does the helm splitter), the finishing blow being an aerial attack has been in every super smash bros game, and this input is definitely usable and feels natural to the game...

basically my idea is to make his jump not affect his horizontal momentum, and to be able to use helm splitter and jump attack as alternative forward aerials, depending on holding, or just pressing A, and give helm splitter an attribute similar to samus's current forward air, and his jump attack a little similar to ike's forward air, but force some downward momentum -- at an angle and without losing horizontal momentum, just quick-falling.... this would also give you a new move that can give you great option of mobility, and will leave your foes guessing as to whether you're trying to use helmsplitter to leap across a large distance, or using the jump attack to get back to the ground quickly...

 

[Kien]

Seems we'll be going with back throw. It replaces a kill move and will function the same way but look much cooler than a simple kick.

 

[NEWB]

U mean it will send people backward? And he will basically do sheild bash plus helm splitter behind him? Seems weird to me, but I have to see it first.

 

[Bent 00]

U mean it will send people backward? And he will basically do sheild bash plus helm splitter behind him? Seems weird to me, but I have to see it first.

Yeah, that does seem to be an awkward place to have such an animation...

 

[NEWB]

Oh wait I'm stupid. It will basically be an alt forward throw that sends people backwards. It won't look unnatural at all! I love it.