Is Toon Link Okay?

Discussion in 'Toon Link' started by Kien, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Sometimes I like to be sure instead of taking silence as the best response. Does everyone think Toon Link is good? I really enjoy using him myself and now that his arrows work properly I think he's pretty much set.

    Personally I feel like his jabs should be a little less punishable. Just slightly faster but that could just be me.

    So, does anyone see any problems with Max TL or is he a finished character?
     
  2. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I suggested awhile back that his ftilt was too strong a spike, but now it feels to slow and weak. Maybe speed it up a little or make it slightly stronger? Since max came out, everyone got tougher, so I feel he could get some power back here.... maybe...?

    Never noticed that his jabs were punishable. I'm not sure.
     
  3. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Also, hidden skills for TL? I think it looks like link is favored by the game over TL. Needs mo love!
     
  4. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    Totally agree with giving him hidden skills... i made a suggestion for helm splitter on the "link helm splitter-something" thread, and one for jump attack too.. it could work for either of these two, maybe twilight link being a heavier slower version, but tap forward air could be jump attack, and hold forward air could be helmsplitter
     
  5. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    I just don't like that idea. about the tap for one move hold for another. With specials it works but normals and it doesn't.

    The reason TL can't have Hidden Skills is because those are a TP only thing. Technically, TL could possess Back Slice, and Helm Splitter. That's really all. Minus Link is a fully TP styled version of Link more or less. He has from TP... All hidden Skills, Bomb Arrows, Bombs, Gale Rang.

    TL has from WW... Hurricane Spin, Fire arrows, Ice Arrows, Light arrows, Bombs, Boomerang. The difference in power for most of his attacks is more than made up for by his combo ability. I see that his only real problem is how he still feels slow.
     
  6. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    Well samus' s forward air was already totally changed almost exactly this way, only difference being you don't keep the original move, and I've heard it mentioned that some people wish it still was a tap/hold option. I guess the helm splitter and jump attack could use the same input in a different way though:maybe using helm splitter (still in air) would do that one flip and then transition into the jump attack, and you'd be stuck like this until you landed, but if you hit someone during helm splitter, you'd "bounce" off of them while slicing and not go into that jump attack fall... it could use the input of A and B at the same time, so you could use it out of jumping slice....? These are a few alternative ideas that could work.. :p
     
  7. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Does he really need the flower element on his boomerang on the way back?
     
  8. Queso2469

    Queso2469 New Member

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    I think he's pretty solid where he is now. The ability to attempt a spike on a down air and live is really useful. I'm not sure he needs more in the way of spiking.
     
  9. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    The only things about current Toon Link that I don't like are:

    - Sometimes a trap arrow will glitch; its hitbox will not be active, although it looks like it is.
    - Toon Link can have a bunch of trap arrows out at once. What's the current limit, four?
    - It's difficult to clear the stage of trap arrows as some characters. Your attacks won't affect them, but you'll get hit if you walk over them.
    - If trap arrows can't be made to be clear-able by every character, they should at least disappear after set amount of time.
    - If a trap arrow falls on a mobile stage element that later moves away, the arrow doesn't go with it. It floats in midair at the point where it landed.
    - The "face the screen and look around cluelessly" taunt is useless and lame. If only Project M hadn't made the "drink potion" taunt first...
    - If there's a flower effect on Toon Link's returning Boomerang, I don't think that fits... Even the old Flaming Boomerang made more sense than that.
    - Why is there no limit to the number of bombs Toon Link can have on-screen at once? Adult Link can only have two out at a time.

    Random suggestion: Perhaps Toon Link's Mirror Shield should reflect light-based attacks? Maybe only during a neutral crouch?
     
  10. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    The arrows lose the hotbox when you walk up to an arrow on the floor and perfect shield them.

    I believe the limit is four. New arrows cause oldest ones to wanish. This is the only way to kill arrows that lose their hitbox.

    Who has trouble removing them? I mean. The devs can look at guys who they want to clear them easier, but man, match ups bent.

    His bombs aren't tricky to avoid. They are super linear, so just jump. Air dodge and catch his bomb and send them back. Bomb spam isn't tricky to deal with. Doesn't happen for long. Smart TL players need to approach since bomb spam accomplishes nothing really.
     
  11. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    I agree on making arrows disappear after a set amount of time :p I love playing tl, but it's not necessary, and I still think it can last for a minute, but no more than that. Also, why not make the forward smash the jump attack, and make it so tilting up and pressing b does the helm splitter, and down and b does the stab? Link's could also work this way, except change the tilt down b one to finish and forward/neutral b to the current fsmash (jump strike)
     
  12. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Toon Link isn't getting any massive changes. He won't be keeping the flower on his rang, that's pretty much all I'm gonna say for now. He's getting a slight buff otherwise.

    The flame rang was actually from Phantom Hourglass if I'm not mistaken so it made sense but was generally uncool to me.

    Toon Link has no bomb limit because he uses bombs by generating them as items. Not only are his bombs nowhere near as powerful as Link's but they are also easier to avoid.

    Expect some cool new things though. We do keep good suggestions in mind.
     
  13. Tybis

    Tybis Resident Minusaur Minus Backroom

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    They didn't. It's Young Link's Melee taunt. Best taunt in the game IMO. :lol:
     
  14. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I thought he was drinking lan lan milk.
     
  15. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    You know what I meant -- because it was used in Project M first, it's not going to appear officially in Minus. :(

    The Minus Team won't borrow anything from Project M unless the Project M team gives permission, but who would even ask them in the first place?
     
  16. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Toon Link needs a complete makeover from what he is. After chatting with Pin, I've got some points to make:

    Trap arrows need to be redone, because they serve little purpose to him as anything but an annoyance now, both to the opponent and to the player. Due to the random elements of the arrows, there is no true way to set up for anything, cause you're only left to pray the RNG gods grant you a favor in the form of the arrows you WANT. Not only that, but only the stun arrows have any real use. Fire and ice arrows counteract each other and make it impossible to use them effectively, and fire arrows lack any kill power at all below like 200%. And, ice arrows by themselves are near useless, as they only freeze the opponent for a brief moment and cause them to slide. They get out scott free unless TL just so happens to be next to them when it happens (SPOILER: it never happens), or he has a bomb ready to throw if he predicts they'll hit the arrow, and even then, there is zero stun upon breaking free, giving the opponent to act immediately upon release, making the point null and void to begin with (also they too have like no kill power outside of lucking a hit offstage).

    The arrows are the only thing that feels "Minus"-y about him, and they don't work for him. The weak bomb spam is fine, but what else does he have? Nothing. His bair spam existed in vBrawl, his fsmash was changed slightly, and his dair doesn't flat out kill him offstage.

    He desperately needs a makeover to make him fit in with Minus, and it has to be more than just arrows, slight move alterations, and Easter egg taunts.
     
  17. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Any arrow off stage from TL is deadly when connects. The arch also tends to be pretty good at hitting the foe if they got hit once. Not as bad as you are saying, they work for me. That of course, still isn't remarkably helpful. His windwaker taunt is also great, but only when the foe is at high percent.

    His grab is good, having a lingering hitbox. Nair is also a good and fast move, but they only help hit the foe away for bomb and arrow spam, which isn't always effective. His jabs I agree are also very slow and unbefitting of a character with little range.

    Unfortunately, I don't see a makeover as being possible. The legend of zelda series has many weapons and items.....that don't exist in the smash games. Creating them would be long and difficult. The other issue is that people that wield swords.....don't really do anything but swing them around.

    TL may not be amazing, but he isn't bad by any means. He just needs to be buffed in the right areas. He has a lot of spring tools as well as his dair wind box. He is a lot like a weaker snake really. If so, buff his arrows more and he should be good.

    Did TL get the Pegasus shoes? Closest thing to a cool new attack to me. It doesn't help that the links themselves are barriers.
     
  18. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    The trap arrows don't lead to any helpful set ups, and hitting with the arrows themselves have nothing to do with my complaint.

    There is plenty that can be done with TL still, as even though he lacks the items from the games, his moveset can still be given a makeover to incorporate more to his games. His basic jabs could act more like they did in WW instead of being a copy of TP Links', and maybe even combo into stuff. The arrows themselves can be buffed, he can have his own Helm Splitter from his game, as well as incorporating his other counter-esque moves.

    It's not impossible to differentiate him more from TP Link and make him shine in Minus. It's just a matter of applying ideas to help him stand out. As he is, I simply do not enjoy playing him because he feels too much like vBrawl TL with a couple changes.

    As for the Pegasus Shoes idea, whether or not he specifically gets them or not (I don't remember. It's been years since I played PH and I never played SS), I feel they could still be implemented somehow.
     
  19. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    While adding things from canon is cool and unique, canon should not be looked at as the primary solution to inherit problems within a character, as sometimes canon ideas may be really cool on paper but not the best in action...

    Toon Link's main problem is how hard he has to work for his kills compared to the majority of the roster, as he and his arrows simply don't have the power they used to have in older builds. His arrows are at the point which I even find the small bomb spam to be more effective than to take out the time to set up my arrows...only to have them easily taken care of by my opponent via perfect shielding or clashing with them. The reward isn't worth the time it takes to get the arrows up, which is even harder to plan right due to how they are currently RNG-based. The arrow traps were his best option in older builds, but now they're near worthless except for the lucky Light arrow.

    Many of his moves also lack power, which does not help with the little guy's short range. The only notably strong move I can think of that is threatening in his kit is dAir. He simply needs more strength in his arrows and in his moves, and stronger combos, no doubt about it.
     
  20. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I have to agree with you on all accounts. We don't need people to end up like samus ultimately did.

    I don't mean to constantly bring her up, but all of the new stuff she got, with maybe two exceptions, made her worse than all her other builds actually. TL can't really fall much further though, so canon may not hurt him as much. It certainly won't fix him though.
     
  21. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Vague hype report on Toon Link.

    1. He has gotten more of what he needs.

    2. He has gotten much of what he had buffed.

    3. He now stands out even further from Link.

    4. He has a new and fairly useful "gimmick."

    I really do love the changes. Too bad I can't tell you all what has been done. If you ever liked any of Minus' TLs you should like this one. Be hyped.
     
  22. 13131

    13131 New Member

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    will he be so different that playing/practicing the current toon link would be pointless?
     
  23. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Not at all. He just has some needed adjustments and buffs. If you play him now, you'll likely be even better. He hasn't been MADE OVER, but he has been what I'd like to call Maximized yet again.
     
  24. 13131

    13131 New Member

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    thanks for responding. that's good to know. sometimes feel toon link could use a little more "oomph" and a little less ice.
     
  25. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Some ideas...

    - fire arrows have higher knockback (KO ~150% on lighter characters? earlier?)

    - Ice arrows fling opponents in the direction opposite the way the arrow was shot every time and freeze twice as long (so if you shoot it so the arrow is travelling right, an opponent hitting it will be shot leftward - so toward where TL shot the arrow from). If you hit someone with the arrow, they stay frozen even longer (counter-gimps??? also more easy to suck them to you for extra damage)

    - Change the "look around cluelessly" taunt to an arrow-switching taunt (can leave it looking exactly the same, but it has functionality) - the RNG is no longer a factor. His default is light arrows (the stun arrows or whatever) and you cycle through arrows by tapping the d-pad left or right during his "look around cluelessly" taunt. This taunt becomes cancellable at any time after the first twenty frames except with another taunt input (so that people can choose arrows properly).

    So he'd be able to swap arrows like Samus swaps beams in P:M.

    Maybe his non-light arrows need better buffs (that is, maybe they're still totally outclassed by light arrows), but this could make it that a TL can switch arrows for different effects as the situation requires.
     

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