How to fight Metal Mario as each character

[Bent 00]

In Brawl Minus MAX 1.01, Mario's Metal Cap was nerfed so that it takes at least twice as long to activate. However, it's still quick enough for Mario to use it after a KO, so you'll still be seeing plenty of the Metal plumber.

For many characters, he isn't a problem -- just chaingrab him or lock him in place with stunning attacks. Some characters don't fare as well, though, and have no better alternative than to just run away until the Metal effect wears off. I still think that situation cheapens and dulls the flow of the game.

Anyhow, I'm assuming the Metal Cap isn't going to be removed, so I made this topic. Let's figure out how each character should deal with Metal Mario. I'll post the ways I work around him as my mains. Please post any advice you have too!

Captain Falcon:
I think Falcon can chaingrab Metal Mario with Down Throw, but the timing is strict; hold down the Z button for a split-second too long, or press Z a split-second too early, and you'll shield, letting Mario get free. Most of Falcon's moves won't faze Metal Mario for long, so you'll end up taking more damage than you deal if you try to take him on directly. A good Mario player will know to watch out for grabs, so your best option is to... Keep away until the Metal wears off. How frustrating for Falcon!

Ganondorf:
Use Side B and down throw a lot? Haven't tried this matchup much yet.

Zelda:
Zelda's grabs are far too slow to catch Metal Mario, and he's fast enough that he'll be too close to Zelda for most of her ranged hitboxes to pose a threat. She can stun him with her jab's ranged hitbox a few times in a row, and Down Smash helps somewhat, but the best strategy for Zelda to follow against Metal Mario is... Keep away until the Metal wears off.

Notice a pattern here?

I'm looking forward to reading how everyone else handles Metal Mario. If you need a Mario player to play against, I play him well enough -- send me a PM to set up a game.

I currently think the Metal Cap should be removed entirely, given more limitations, or mixed up with Invisibility and/or Bunny Hood. It helps Mario a lot in certain situations, but it also makes him way too strong against specific characters. It breaks game balance more than it helps it IMO.

 

[NEWB]

The problem I have with this is that keeping away is generally the intended idea for metal ingeneral. When you say how does each person fight him, that's kinda a trick question. You DONT really fight him, you predict his moves and bait him into your attacks. This is done very easily by simply jumping and rolling not necessarily away from him but AROUND him. You remember this happening when we played bent, don't you? I have little experience fighting metal Mario myself. When I tried to attack him, I lost because I wasn't really sure what to do then, but when I stopped fighting, you couldn't even touch me. That is because it is easy to keep away from him.

What the player needs to do is when avoiding mm is to catch him in a mistake, like even in normal matchups. If people don't understand this concept or don't know how to play this way, then they aren't even playing the game fully and completely. Playing keep away and dodging attacks is another method of fighting that exists in all smash games.

Most of falcons moves don't work well as you said, but he can retaliate well enough. His raptor boost is a good attack to get a hit in to shorten mm duration, and the knee is a very fast and strong attack that you use when you catch mario in the endlag of fair, or even if you just jump to dodge Mario's getup attack and land the knee afterwards. I would also experiment with up throw for falcon. It's hard for any player to time a tech then so it's easy to land a dair right there.

For Ganon, do his ranged moves like fsmash and dtilt. Wiz kick is also still very useful whether on the ground or in the air. Upsmash is useful cuz it's fast, and again, hard for mm to tech this, so you can actually chain it together.

This statement with zelda is a little funny actually. Zelda plays keep away from everyone, not just mm. Being weak at close quarters is her thing, so don't be annoyed that mm gets her. Ftilt remains viable, as are well timed fairs. I think nuetral b works well to hit mm away as well as dsmash. Zelda's weakness to him lies in her inability to jump well and dodge away I think. Mm doesn't destroy her though, but he gets the advantage.

 

[Bent 00]

Thanks tor the advice. Do you think it's fair that Mario gets at least 3 free shots at going Metal in each 4-stock match? Whenever you fight Mario, you can count on at least half a minute of that match being you playing Keep Away from Metal Mario. This is a huge assist for Mario that he doesn't even need against most characters.

What you said about waiting for Metal Mario to make a mistake... That works if you have a chaingrab or attacks with high power and priority. But plenty of characters have no viable option against him if Mario's playing safely. No other character has such a feature, that basically says "it's your turn to attack now, your opponent can't do anything but try to avoid you!" multiple times per match.

Too many matches I've played against a good Mario were ruined by the Metal Cap. It would be a close, even match until Mario started abusing the Cap, giving him the advantage he didn't even need. Whenever Mario gets a KO, he puts on that Cap. I respawn, and because I know I can't get to him in time to stop him from going Metal most of the time, I stay on the respawn platform as long as possible, and play Keep Away once it vanishes, until Mario reverts to normal.

This STALLS THE MATCH. Whenever I fight a good Metal Mario, I'm encouraged to stop being aggressive and run away for ~10 seconds after each time I'm KO'ed. Who thinks this is a good game mechanic? The Metal Cap harms the balance, pace, and flow of the game much more than it helps it. Minus would be better without it, or at least a more heavily nerfed form of it. As-is, Mario's Metal Cap is the most needlessly powerful and game-changing taunt in the game. It's better than Lucario's ultra taunt now, because Mario gets a free shot at using it after every KO, and there's no reason not to go Metal unless your opponent can chaingrab or lock you in place. IIRC, the Metal Cap activates faster than Lucario's ultra taunt too, and of course Mario doesn't have to hurt himself to use it.

I hate fighting Marios who abuse the Metal Cap. Mario is great enough without it. This taunt might as well turn Mario into Super Baby Mario instead, because all it's doing is babying the Mario player. You scored a KO? Woo, have 12 seconds of near invincibility! Your opponent will just have to deal with it. Going Metal is equivalent to saying "I need help, this is too hard, waaa" or "I wanna be cheap and stall the match, whee" IMO.

If every character's best option against Metal Mario is to avoid him, why is it kept in the game?!

 

[NEWB]

Do you know how to play every character bent? I mean I guess that is why you made this thread, to figure out to play against him. You bring up a point regarding stalling the match I guess, but the amount of time limited since you can only use it three times, unless it's a big stage.

True, he doesn't need it really, but he isn't broken or op with it. Mm has fairly quick moves, but he doesn't approach very well. This is because he falls fast and had bad air momentum. The landlag of his attacks slow him down a bit, mostly fair and dair. You can avoid two fireballs easily, and his dash attack can be stopped by pretty much anyone's jabs or their dtilt. Mm can't even combo as easily as Mario. Even when I played you, I didn't feel that it ruined the match or anything. Mm creates a game where both players have to play cautiously and smart. It's a very thrilling experience for me personally and I welcome the challenge! It's really fun for me and the people I play, on top of being a great reference from his games and the smash series, since fighting mm was a thing in classic modes for 64 and melee.

 

[Glyph]

If you're having this hard of a time against Mario, play Mario against him too. Metal is not going to be removed, just so we're clear about that going forward.

Any character can shieldgrab. Even if you don't have a chain throw, throw him away from you and move back and wait for him to approach again. His approaches are typically very obvious since his only real speed will come from his dash attack, which means you can just roll towards him as he starts it to avoid it entirely.

 

[Lightning]

since fighting mm was a thing in classic modes for 64 and melee.

Ugh, I just had some flashbacks of playing against metal Mario in Melee.. :?

On a more relevant topic, I'm kinda on the fence with this.
I think NEWB makes some great points for metal Mario. It's a great challenge to play against a metal Mario. His jumps are shorter due to the weight increase. And the metal cap doesn't make him OP or broken. I think it adds some uniqueness to Mario's play style. Because of the fact that he's heavy and slow, metal Mario is similar to Ganondorf (Mind the size difference and "Let's kidnap Zelda!" motive). Since he's heavy, tilts are very good at racking up percentages. Not only that, but if he's off stage, chances are, he'll sink like a rock. I mean, he's got some serious problems if you can exploit them.. But, then again, not being able to take knockback is a huge plus.


BUT, I do think a nerf should occur. Limiting the time of the metal cap or putting a limit as to how many times Mario can use the metal cap in a match is what I would go with. Maybe slowing down the taunt enough to give you time to respawn and hit him would be nice, too.

 

[Bent 00]

NEWB, the Mario I play isn't even close to being the best Mario he can be, so please don't dismiss Metal Mario as being fine just because you can beat me when I play him. One of my local friends has mained Mario since 64, and he's vicious as him... I'm trying to get him to play online, but no luck so far. Anyone want to play him next Thursday after 6 PM EST? I'll see him then.

My main problem with Metal Mario is how he stalls the game. Maybe instead of having it end after 12 seconds, it could end after X amount of damage is dealt to him? In a fast-paced fighting game like Minus, I think players should never be encouraged to just keep away and not fight back at all.

Does anyone here want to try their Falcon or Zelda against my (average) Metal Mario? You guys just aren't seeing how frustrating MM is for characters who have no viable option except avoiding him.

 

[NEWB]

But if that were done, he couldn't even use it. Also, he doesn't have shorter jumps, just less airtime. That's what you meant though. As for shortening it, it's already short, especially if you inflict damage. Also, being stuck metal longer also means that he can get locked better, so limiting the time could actually buff the move because the drawback of being locked, which is the drawback, would be lessened.

I should really start quoting people.

 

[Bent 00]

Let's list the characters who have no viable option against Metal Mario except Keep Away.

Keep Away:
Captain Falcon (can chaingrab with D-Throw, but that's risky and unreliable)
Zelda (keep away, nothing she can do at close range)

Has a good chaingrab on MM:
Donkey Kong
Fox
Pikachu
R.O.B. (?)

I'm sure there are a bunch more, but I want to be sure before I list others...

 

[Lightning]

But if that were done, he couldn't even use it. Also, he doesn't have shorter jumps, just less airtime. That's what you meant though. As for shortening it, it's already short, especially if you inflict damage. Also, being stuck metal longer also means that he can get locked better, so limiting the time could actually buff the move because the drawback of being locked, which is the drawback, would be lessened.

I should really start quoting people.

Not shortening it to the point where he can't use it. I mean, at least make it possible for someone to use a projectile. And you do make a good point on limiting the time. Now that I gave it more thought, I see a possibility of giving it ending lag instead. And don't worry, I knew that was in reply to me. :lol:

Anyone want to play him next Thursday after 6 PM EST? I'll see him then.

Does anyone here want to try their Falcon or Zelda against my (average) Metal Mario? You guys just aren't seeing how frustrating MM is for characters who have no viable option except avoiding him.

Bent, although I've never played against a metal Mario, I'll gladly give it a shot with Zelda. As much as I enjoy playing Captain Falcon for fun, my Captain Falcon isn't that great. (But, I might as well embarrass myself even more by doing it anyway..) :mrgreen:


Also, if you decide to play as Sheik against a metal Mario, just forward tilt. Forward tilt. Forward tilt. Forward tilt.

Spoiler

Did I mention forward tilt?

 

[Glyph]

I don't understand why having to change your playstyle slightly for less than 15 seconds is so massively problematic. Keep in mind its not like your ONLY option is running away. Falcon has a chainthrow, practice its timing if you're having trouble doing it consistently. Zelda's ranged hitboxes space just as well against a metal opponent as it does a regular one, just teleport to them each time since it'll pull him towards your current location and flip you to the opposite side.

 

[Bent 00]

I don't understand why having to change your playstyle slightly for less than 15 seconds is so massively problematic. Keep in mind its not like your ONLY option is running away. Falcon has a chainthrow, practice its timing if you're having trouble doing it consistently. Zelda's ranged hitboxes space just as well against a metal opponent as it does a regular one, just teleport to them each time since it'll pull him towards your current location and flip you to the opposite side.

Slightly? "Do not try to attack, keep away until the Metal effect wears off" is more than a slight change to my playstyle. And having to do that for at least 30 seconds of every match gets really annoying.

Falcon does have a chainthrow on MM, but it's usually not worth the risk to go for it. MM's ground game is awesome, so you're probably gonna eat some up/down smashes and dash attacks before you land that grab.

As for Zelda, once MM gets past her F-Smash's ranged hitbox, the only tool of hers that will flinch him long enough for her to keep avoiding his attacks is her ranged jab. Once MM gets past that, Zelda's not getting MM far enough away to turn the tide; her only viable option is to keep away.

How about you try playing Falcon and Zelda against my Metal Mario, Glyph? I'm only just "good" as him, but that's enough for you to see how those two struggle against him.

Lightning, I'll be happy to take on your Zelda too. I'll be free Wednesday after 9PM or so.

 

[Lightning]

I'll be free Wednesday after 9PM or so.

Ah, I'm sleeping over my friend's house on Wednesday. Any chance you're free Thursday in the afternoon? Say 4 or 5? That way, I can have the chance to play you before your Mariolicious friend.

 

[WastedCrits]

I'll be happy to throw my Falcon in, too. Not gonna turn down a chance to play against a new playstyle. I'd also like to see how some of my other mains work against him, if that's all right.

 

[Bent 00]

I've got some stuff to do the first half of Thursday, but I'll post here as soon as I'm available for some matches.

Hopefully I can get my friend (the Mario Terror) to play some online too, after 6PM.

 

[Bent 00]

BTW, I think a big reason why many of you don't know how OP Mario is against certain characters is the simple fact that you don't get to play against him often. Maybe you don't even know a Mario main? The Mario CPU AI rarely uses Side Taunt, and it's too much trouble to get them to pick up Metal Boxes in Training Mode constantly. You could try a Metal match in Special Mode, but that's not too helpful either, since you'll be metal too.

I know KingClubber, Sammi-Husky, and others are working on improving the Minus CPU AI, but until the new AI is released, you won't be getting much practice against Metal Mario as non-metal characters. Unless you use this, that is!

Player 2 is always Metal:
4A000000 90180F7C
100000B3 00000010
100000B4 00000000
E0000000 80008000

It's only a temporary solution, but it works. Try fighting a level 9 Metal Mario and tell me how your characters fare!

Here's a copy of the MAX 1.01 .gct with the above code already added in:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8lba4 ... RSBE01.gct

And here's a copy of the 1.01 FitMarioMotionEtc.pac with NEWB's Double Up-B fix:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/yilsn ... ionEtc.pac

Remember to rename and save the default RSBE01.gct so you can switch back to it after you're done training against Metal Mario. I'd suggest putting this on a separate SD card if you have an extra. Obviously, playing with an altered .gct will desync you online.

After you've played level 9 CPU Metal Mario a while, imagine that difficulty times 2 or 3. That's at least how tough a good human Mario main will be as him. Tell me, do you still think that Mario should get to go Metal three times minimum in a 4-stock match? Try playing a character who's not good against Metal Mario, and see if you can make any progress against him without taking massive damage yourself. I think you'll see how annoying it is.

 

[NEWB]

I guess I'll try this out. I can sorta play everyone, so I think I can figure out how to deal with it.

Also bent, like with glyph, we can't assume this is op just because one person plays him well. We have already established that that is not how it works. Of course, there are more Mario players, but we aren't aware of their skill level. Yours is the only Mario I faced, and it wasn't bad bent. We should probably get a rematch in now that the cap can be used less.

Also, huge thanks for the digging up my motionfile! I lost mine somewhere along the way. Though I'm pretty sure that I still had the download working.

 

[Bent 00]

Also Bent, like with glyph, we can't assume this is op just because one person plays him well. We have already established that that is not how it works. Of course, there are more Mario players, but we aren't aware of their skill level.

What bugs me about my friend who mains Mario is how he uses the Metal Cap as a crutch when he doesn't need it. If he didn't use the Metal Cap, we would be trading wins very evenly. Unfortunately, he does abuse the Cap, and my Falcon and Zelda are put at a severe disadvantage just because of that. I'll try my Ganondorf against his Mario next...

Anyhow, what annoys me most of all is how I'm encouraged to stop playing aggressively and keep away 3+ times per match. It's really lame! What other character can say "I'm-a METAL now, you-a better run!" multiple times each game? No one. After almost every KO, Mario goes Metal while I'm respawning, and since I know I can't get to him in time, I just sit there on the respawn platform until it disappears, to stall out the Metal. Whenever I do this, I'm thinking "Really? This is fair? No way" while my friend is like "Deal with it".

Another thing that makes me think he's winning because of a broken taunt and not pure skill is that he can't beat me consistently in 1v1s with any character except Mario. I made this argument against Glyph once before, but then he proceeded to get really good at Ivysaur and Kirby, proving to me that he wasn't winning just because of R.O.B.'s strength.

Similar to Lucario before the nerfs, I think Mario is getting too much reward with not enough risk using the Metal Cap. After he scores a KO, he might as well use Side Taunt; you're probably not getting to him in time to stop him if he's any good. The only reasons he won't use the Cap are if he's facing an opponent who can chaingrab or lock him in place, or if he's at low damage and doesn't need it.

My Mario-maining friend frequently survives past 200% on neutral stages. Mario should not be able to hang on that long this easily! You know how he does it? Super-safe ground game. I guarantee you will eat multiple Up Smashes and Down Smashes if you try to approach a good Metal Mario. You can try to shieldgrab his Dash Attack, but this seems to be quite difficult to do, since that move gets through partially-depleted shields easily.

I'll say it again: IMO, Metal Mario harms the overall balance, pace, and flow of the game much more than he helps it. The Metal Cap is a nice nod to Super Mario 64, and it's very Minus-y, but it's too effective against certain characters who have no viable strategy against Metal Mario except "Keep Away".

Yours is the only Mario I faced, and it wasn't bad Bent. We should probably get a rematch in now that the cap can be used less.

Thanks, but my Mario still needs lots of practice. I don't take full advantage of Mario's D-Air or it's cancels into other aerials enough yet, nor have I learned to use Fire Brand or Dash Attack and it's cancel to their max potential.

I might have some free time after 9 PM EST tonight if you want to play some matches. Try playing someone who can't easily chaingrab or stunlock Metal Mario against me.

Also, huge thanks for the digging up my motionfile! I lost mine somewhere along the way. Though I'm pretty sure that I still had the download working.

Sure. Your download still works too, but I wasn't sure if it was based on MAX 1.0 Mario or MAX 1.01 Mario, so I went ahead and applied it to 1.01. I'm guessing it doesn't make any difference anyway, but might as well try to be as up-to-date as possible where I can...

 

[NEWB]

Again, have you tried clanging Mario's dash attack? It's very predictable, and clangs with jabs and is usually out ranged by good tilts. Lucario's dtilt works really well for instance. As did Mario's jabs, like in our match.

 

[NEWB]

Oh! And for those not used to fighting the AI, they are really good at timing his fsmash. I mean, in general they can instantly react to what you do, it will seem like at times there was nothing you could do to dodge attacks. When evaluating mm, keep in mind that the AI can do things that players can't and players can obviously use his other hacked moves properly. When fighting him, try to assess where what a player would do in that situation. I mean seriously, the AI is JESUS at timing his fsmash.

 

[Bent 00]

Again, have you tried clanging Mario's dash attack? It's very predictable, and clangs with jabs and is usually out ranged by good tilts. Lucario's dtilt works really well for instance. As did Mario's jabs, like in our match.

No, I'll have to try that. Thanks.

Oh! And for those not used to fighting the AI, they are really good at timing his fsmash. I mean, in general they can instantly react to what you do, it will seem like at times there was nothing you could do to dodge attacks. When evaluating mm, keep in mind that the AI can do things that players can't and players can obviously use his other hacked moves properly. When fighting him, try to assess where what a player would do in that situation. I mean seriously, the AI is JESUS at timing his fsmash.

Grade "A" players are able to time their smashes at least as well as level 9 CPUs do. The only thing the CPU does frequently that a human can't do as well is perfect shield a lot.

 

[NEWB]

What do you really find bothersome here? Is it the metal effect or the metal effect on Mario?

I'm thinking about a suggestion for possibly changing the nature of metal, but if it's Mario that is too good with metal... maybe metal can be made more like armor....

 

[Bent 00]

What do you really find bothersome here? Is it the metal effect or the metal effect on Mario?

I'm thinking about a suggestion for possibly changing the nature of metal, but if it's Mario that is too good with metal... maybe metal can be made more like armor....

I think I've explained adequately what I find overpowered and annoying about Mario and his Metal Cap. It doesn't matter if other characters are as good or not while metal, because they can only attain that state via the Metal Box (and who plays with items on?).

Changing the nature of the Metal Box is a workable idea, but what can you do to it without making it useless? I suppose you could remove or drastically decrease its resistance to knockback/flinch/stun, leave in the added weight, and make it decrease damage taken from attacks by half (?) to make up for the removed armor effect.

That would still make the Metal Cap worth using to reduce the damage you take, but wouldn't make Mario OP against characters who can't flinch Metal Mario as-is.

TL, DNR: Remove or reduce the Metal's armor effect, and make it reduce damage taken by a set percentage instead? If that's even possible.

I still think it would be better to remove it entirely... Players should not be encouraged to run away or otherwise stall a match.

 

[NEWB]

If you simply cut damage in half, that will just cause Mario to be comboed even easier.

What i was thinking, if it were possible, is if being metal doesn't increase launch resistence. Instead, it makes characters less effected by hitstun. He can still gain weight (maybe) and he wouldn't be able to be comboed as easy temporarily. This would give the illusion of armor, but he would still take normal damage from attacks. What this would do is allow mario to try approaching his foe, and if he unsuccessful, he won't be comboed as well. Being metal makes it so he also can't combo well, but maybe he could get armor on moves like fair or something. I'm sure this would be easier to deal with now for characters that don't chain grab or juggle him.

It would be nice to hear what devs think about the metal cap. They didn't seem to want to remove it, and they can better explain why. I still don't see it as a problem, whether me needs the move or not. Stalling a match a little means nothing in minus since matches don't even last 5 mins. It would be a good point in all other mods though. Still your strongest point IMO, but not deal breaking yet.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm available for online matches now if anyone's game. I'll be playing (Metal) Mario.

If you used my altered RSBE01.gct for MM practice: Don't forget to switch back, or you'll desync online.

I'll be in the brawlminus.tk/chat