Gonna keep it in this thread.

[NEWB]

I don't think so either. Setting up edge gaurds and tech chases isn't bad at all. For a puff that loves the air, this is exactly what she wants since she can already start combos from Nair anytime.

 

[Thor]

I once believed that Thor had the power of lightning. I now see it's the power to cross things out. I've never encountered more crossed out text. Since you left it here and just crossed it out instead of deleting, I don't know if you still mean to say it. I'm going assume you still mean it.
Thor, I don't doubt Glyph being factually right. I was just curious about what I asked.

I need to play more Pikachu and re-convince you. And that was an accident, because sometimes my posts do weird things because of a small error on my end (sometimes I misspell "quote" or something and then the entire post ends up in quotes because the computer automatically closes it at the end of the post, or the weird strikethrough thing - must've had something to do with Glyph's strikethrough, because I didn't actually try to strike through anything).

But doesn't pk fire chain together if they di back? I figure you could chain pk fire if they do that.

Technically if the Ness reads that you will only SDI purely backward. However, if you see Ness jump, trying to read upward SDI, this works perfectly fine since you'll escape. If you use the quarter-circle/Japanese DI it mentions, you can also choose to go just upward slightly (top to side rotating back and forth) so that you can then DJ a PK fire (or just end up a bit above it) or just end up in a spot that is harder for Ness to grab you.

Also, yes you are kind of hosed if Ness gets you with PK fire up close, but if he's going for a point-blank PK fire, short-hop aerials will beat that every time - if he's farther away you have a little more time (and this isn't PM, so you can just shield them if you're careful about it).

That's IF they miss the tech.
Lemee restate. In comparison to the rest of the cast, Jiggs has pretty ****** throws.

Falco's are worse, but I'm not going there.

Bthrow for Jiggs is awesome - great for setting up edgeguards where Jiggs doesn't have to go upward to attack them.
Uthrow can combo into Rest on certain characters, and I'm pretty much positive you can get uair off it and then do stuff from there.
Dthrow allows tech chases, but if they do tech, it's at worst a reset. Besides, not every throw has to be useful, at least as of now (how useful do you think Falco fthrow really is? At last check it doesn't combo or chainthrow and it doesn't KO until high percents on the edge of the stage). While most characters have purely useful throws, many are super situational or almost never used because they are just outclassed - I can say I think I almost never see Darxmarx use bthrow, because dthrow combos better (and fthrow at some percents) and uthrow KOs at like 100%ish so there's not a reason to look to KO earlier.
Fthrow does the same thing as bthrow, and it may have KO potential (not sure on that, must check).

Her throws may not be MK quality (a use in every situation - damage, edgeguard, stage position, KO) but they're still solid for what Jiggs does best.

Also, out of curiosity, can one tech out of Royal Rampage dthrow and/or Flying Slam? It's annoying getting hit for 50+% out of a super-armor grab, but it's also possible I'm just bad at teching out - or do I just have to win the DI mixup and avoid the Flying Slam followup?

 

[Kien]

Give me this much now, are you reverting the moves to their old version or trying to salvage this new version?


Pk fire is unpunishable in the same way EVERY projectile in the game is. Its also not even a guaranteed followup if your opponent has spent even a little time learning how to DI. Exact same problem with dthrow. This nonsense about 'BUT IT TRUE COMBOS :'(' has gone on for waaaaay too long. You know who else's throws lead into followups? MY MOM'S everybody's! There might be like two characters who CAN'T follow up. But treating Ness' dthrow like its even remotely in need of nerfs just shows an inability to DI effectively.

We're reverting to the old version and making something better.

Truth time.
Ness's PK Fire was made nearly impossible to DI out of for the purpose of combos. Ask anyone who PSAs in Minus if you can DI PK Fire. The answer is no. Unless you read what Ness plans to do as a followup. It can't be DI'd like a normal attack, so you're completely wrong.

Also, if you died in three hits to ness that's YOUR fault, not ness'. You literally could not have been above what, 30%? Sonic covers a ton of vertical distance with his upb, you just didn't use it in time for whatever reason.

He sure does, unless he's stuck in hitstun.

ZSS had obscene kill power? Ok... but why'd you have to go mess up dsmash? That move wasn't exactly easy to land, but you made a lot of ZSS players less happy with it... and I don't know who thought it was OP, but I don't think most had a problem with it doing 30% on contact because triple dsmash (just give it high base KB and zero KBG - if you take the triple you get zero combos, and if you take double to stuff cool for you).

That was Mech's doing, but everyone agreed in the BR that she doesn't need 3 downsmashes to do combos. Now she has to choose to either do two of them, or to do one with a followup of her choice. Her killpower is still really good believe it or not.

Link dthrow true combos into utilt or aerials, last I checked... you have to read their DI but Ness does too (and against certain characters it doesn't - Jiggs can be at too high a percent for dthrow uair to connect when she DIs so she goes straight up, out of Ness's reach).

The problem isn't the throw true comboing into the aerial. The problem is PK Fire being a way too reliable setup into the throw, the aerial of his choice which could mean... PK Fire, Dthrow, Fair, fair, fair (ridiculous damage output unless DI'ed). PK Fire, Dthrow, Dair. PK Fire, Dthrow, uair (KO). PK Fire, Dthrow, bair (KO) etc.

See, the only thing Link has that compares even slightly, is dthrow to short hop spin attack, and I think that has to be reversed? It actually takes skill and even inputting it a split second too soon or too late will cause you to be at risk. Ness has no risk factor involved. And PK Fire has NO ENDLAG once the projectile is gone. He can move as soon as his fire travels max distance (talking about the grounded version).

If another dev doesn't like this method, ok. Maybe I'll talk to Pin about things (or just see if I can be a part of the backroom later... once I have my stuff again, and if I meet requirements).

Good luck. If anything, I could teach you PSA to help your chances.

At the very least, can we not tweak stuff everyone agrees is awesome (I think Pit's side+B is a good example) and also go after stuff that everyone knows sucks (why did it take Sheik's whip so long...?)?

It wasn't easy to code from my understanding. I could be wrong though. And Pit's side B is what I would say is too good. Unless you're not talking about Angel Ring.

Falco does not have guaranteed followups (AND YET NO ONE ADDRESSES THIS!) OR a KO throw (THAT'S BULLCRAP! WHY FALCO HAVE WORST THROW GAME!?), only 2 throws that rely on terrible DI to do anything, but ROB, Link, Ness, Captain Falcon (I think), ZSS, Fox (uthrow I think...), MK [sorta, if you count dthrow and hold B), ICs, and several others do get true combos out of throws... should we nerf them all? I agree with Glyph - let's not...

Also agree with the last part of Glyph's post, at lest partly.

Again, it's not true comboing into aerials that is the problem. It's high damage throws true comboing into aerials that either true combo into themselves or KO at low percents. It's like if Link's uthrow true combod into his dair. And Falco's throws suck you say? I might have to look at him too. Next thing you know he's gonna need nerfs. Just like everyone else I work on.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/SDI
Do it straight backward out of the PK fire - when I do it quickly enough, Glyph (or I think Ness in general) gets no followups (unless he was already so close I could've punished startup, which would be my own fault for not punishing or jumping it).

Concept, I think Glyph may be biased, but he's also factually right about a lot of what he says... I don't think if he is biased that he is letting much of it affect what he's saying here.[/QUOTE]

 

[Thor]

He sure does, unless he's stuck in hitstun.

This isn't Smash 64, just meteor cancel. MAYBE you input it too early and the Minus team never removed the meteor cancel penalty, but in that case it's still entirely your fault for dying to that, NOT that Ness can reliably zero-death with it.

It wasn't easy to code from my understanding. I could be wrong though. And Pit's side B is what I would say is too good. Unless you're not talking about Angel Ring.

I don't personally think Angel Ring is too good (I don't think it reflects projectiles - if it does, that could be removed, but only that), but really I was speaking of his new air side+B - while I like grounded side+B too, despite not playing Pit, I don't know if it really is too good or not. But I'm pretty sure most people agree that air side+b is in a really great spot.

And Falco's throws suck you say? I might have to look at him too. Next thing you know he's gonna need nerfs. Just like everyone else I work on.

Just adjust his dthrow to give better followups, or make one of his throws (Fthrow I guess, doesn't need to be on bthrow although bthrow is kinda lame anyway) KO around like 10-20% sooner. That's all I want out of his throw game - either some real followups or a KO throw.

PK Fire, Dthrow, Fair, fair, fair (ridiculous damage output unless DI'ed). PK Fire, Dthrow, Dair. PK Fire, Dthrow, uair (KO). PK Fire, Dthrow, bair (KO) etc.

1) That's why you DI it properly.
2) Meteor cancel or DI it above Ness
3) Only works if DI'd above Ness, and some characters can escape it (Jigglypuff)
4) Pretty sure that only works if DIing behind Ness

Link can dthrow -> utilt -> nair, uair, or fair and then follow up with a bomb or boomerang, which is also damaging and puts them in a bad spot (or utilt KOs). If you read them you also get dthrow -> dair for KOs.

 

[Kien]

I don't personally think Angel Ring is too good

Angel ring hitconfirms shields allowing free grabs. It can only be counterplayed by being far enough away to dodge away from Pit OR by jumping over him. Though some high priority attacks can clang, he never outright loses because of it. If he hits it's damage into a free grab. It goes a bit farther than dodge as well, so he has great extended grab range but no penalty on it.

Just adjust his dthrow to give better followups, or make one of his throws (Fthrow I guess, doesn't need to be on bthrow although bthrow is kinda lame anyway) KO around like 10-20% sooner. That's all I want out of his throw game - either some real followups or a KO throw.

Personally, I think he'd like followups more.

1) That's why you DI it properly.
2) Meteor cancel or DI it above Ness
3) Only works if DI'd above Ness, and some characters can escape it (Jigglypuff)
4) Pretty sure that only works if DIing behind Ness

That means that regardless of your DI, Ness has at least one option from it. He gets a reward regardless of how well you play against him. He lets you choose which option hurts the LEAST for your situation.

Link can dthrow -> utilt -> nair, uair, or fair and then follow up with a bomb or boomerang, which is also damaging and puts them in a bad spot (or utilt KOs). If you read them you also get dthrow -> dair for KOs.

Link can't do his nair or uair followup after utilt if you're above what... 60%? Ness 's followups work up until KO percents.

 

[Glyph]

Oh my god kien, are you EVER going to own up to not making the right call sometimes? Literally every point someone makes you have some comeback for and the only person you're fooling is yourself.

 

[NEWB]

He said that Ganon's utilt as is is a mistake. His last post wasn't even about a change he made, just speculation.

Glyph, you have must have him on skype, so talk to him there if all you can do is try to make him look bad here. You are the only one who is being very distasteful here.

 

[Bashdemears]

KIEN THATS WHAT A FUCKING COMBO IS ABOUT. You are always guaranteed followups if your execution is on point. If you fail to execute then you don't get the combo. Are you going to remove everything else that true combos as well?

 

[Valravn]

It's easy to get engrossed in an argument and say harsher things than you really intend. I'm sure Kien has his reasons for changes in 3.Q and has reasons for changes to the next version. I'm also sure he can take other opinions into consideration without the need for antagonism. I don't think anyone here has misconceptions about how combos work. My understanding is:

Kien says Ness' PK Fire is a guaranteed combo setup, and should be changed. He also finds it to be difficult to punish. In addition, he provided anecdotal evidence of being 3HKO'd by this setup as Sonic.

I don't think that PK Fire's setup mechanism is foolproof, and there are definitely ways to play around it even if you're hit. In fact, I think it's better that he has (distinct) options to follow up even with different DI directions. It allows for mind games. If the combination was always PK Fire into Up-Smash and there was no way to get out of it at any percent with any DI, I would be less happy with it.

Personally, I disagree that PK Fire is unpunishable, especially as Sonic. It takes quite a bit of timing, but you can perfect shield the projectile and boost over to hit or grab him pretty darn fast. Most characters can either avoid or shield the projectile.

I feel that PK Fire is a powerful setup, but not difficult to play around with good timing or prediction, and that makes it a good move in my book.

 

[Thor]

Angel ring hitconfirms shields allowing free grabs. It can only be counterplayed by being far enough away to dodge away from Pit OR by jumping over him. Though some high priority attacks can clang, he never outright loses because of it. If he hits it's damage into a free grab. It goes a bit farther than dodge as well, so he has great extended grab range but no penalty on it.

Roll behind Pit and fsmash him (unless you're Ike, then ftilt I guess). Do this enough and they'll think harder about Angel Ringing in.

Incidentally, I don't know how good Pit's throws are, but I don't remember them being that impressive, which tells me that getting grabbed isn't really that bad against Pit.

Would making it transcendent help the problem at all? Or making it that any attack hitting the ring cancels the animation fully (so if Link jabs with good timing, both moves are cancelled out)?

That means that regardless of your DI, Ness has at least one option from it. He gets a reward regardless of how well you play against him. He lets you choose which option hurts the LEAST for your situation.

That's the same for Link's dthrow - I'm pretty sure nair, utilt, uair, and fair are all true followups if they DI different ways, and one can also play the guessing game with dair for an even earlier KO.

Link can't do his nair or uair followup after utilt if you're above what... 60%? Ness 's followups work up until KO percents.

Ok, add like 10 KBG to Ness dthrow. Boom, problem solved - gets early followups but not late followups (and by the way, above like 120% if Ness is dthrowing he's not very bright - that's bthrow KO percents, or at least putting them in a bad position).

Also, Link doesn't really care about following up utilt with a physical attack after 100%, because he then has enough time to pull bombs and start raining hell from below, or the utilt KO'd.

Ness also only gets guaranteed followups against certain characters - it happens to Falco, but Jiggs can just DI straight up and jump away before Ness can follow up.

 

[NEWB]

Getting grabs by pit is lethel. Dthrow and fthrow get a follow up and back throw and fthrow are great for tossing foes offstage for arrow carnage.

 

[Tybis]

Roll behind Pit and fsmash him (unless you're Ike, then ftilt I guess). Do this enough and they'll think harder about Angel Ringing in.

Angel Ring is shield cancelable at any time, meaning it can instantly be dodged out of. So if Pit really wanted to, he could start using Angel ring for a brief moment and dodge backward to mess you up, or if you're trying to go around/above him he could just roll forward...

 

[NEWB]

So the problem is that the move is potentially 100% safe? It sounds like the simplest thing to do is give it somewhere between vbrawl and minus distance. Or be more specific and only give it a shield cancel window near the end of the move. My first thought is that this move is fine because it all depends on the choices both players do, but this move requires no dedication and is completely safe on whiff.

The only weakness this move has is that if the foe is far enough away, he can simply DI away from him but this does not happen very much at all since the pit will grab you as soon as he can in the move. The other thing is that this move will do virtually nothing to a foe that jumps. Even if they get hit in the air, they still can't be grabbed I think.

 

[Bashdemears]

Angel ring is freaking fine.

 

[Thor]

Angel Ring is shield cancelable at any time, meaning it can instantly be dodged out of. So if Pit really wanted to, he could start using Angel ring for a brief moment and dodge backward to mess you up, or if you're trying to go around/above him he could just roll forward...

That's odd, because I was trying to earlier and I couldn't seem to shield in the middle of it. I could hit Z and grab, but when I tried pressing or holding R, no shield came up.

I'll go back and check again, but... maybe make it grab-cancellable only? That would fix this issue, I would think.

 

[Bashdemears]

Having multiple options are the point of mixups. I say leave angel ring alone.

 

[NEWB]

Mixups shouldn't favor one person 85% of the time. Make it so that it doesn't cancel into shield on whiff at least.

 

[Bashdemears]

^ That's a good idea.