Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
It's rare that utilt is a safer option than anything else.
Daily Match-up Discussion
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Thor
Well-Known Member
Bashdemears said:
Not always about safety - Falco fsmash is almost always less safe than dash->usmash (or just usmash) in vBrawl, but people use it. Why? Risk-reward. Utilt -> rest is a KO at 40% (and last I checked, utilt isn't horribly unsafe or anything) so getting those is very useful. And you may say that now, but if you're down 100% to 40% against a Ganondorf... maybe you wouldn't, but I know for sure I'd take every opportunity I think is there to utilt them in the hopes they miss DI or I read it for the Rest.
Incidentally, if your opponent just whiffed a move (if ROB fsmashes the wrong way, for instance), it not be "safer" but if it's guaranteed it's not less safe either.
But to each their own I guess. I'm also apparently the only Jigglypuff who uses Explosion (which means I need to Jiggs ditto you again to see if I can repeat my performance of that one time...).
Anyway, Luigi/Olimar on the Luigi end. Anyone have advice, because it feels so so so difficult to get in (especially at higher percents). @Sammi-husky (hopefully this does work as a tag, since I think you play Luigi)
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
I've had successful explosion mindgames.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Problem is, nair leaves him sort of open (I don't think it lingers long enough - it would need almost Melee-Link-nair-like properties for that) and his side+b leaves him WAY open (too much endlag for Olimar to not easily get a free fair or usmash/fsmash, unless he's got only whites and is camping as far away as possible). I would REALLY love some help in this MU because I might play Luigi more if one of the only people I can play here didn't use Olimar, or if I had some MU advice on this wall of damage that Luigi jus can't seem to get through [and for the record, my Falco can dispatch with his Olimar rather efficiently, and my Ganondorf/Pikachu/a few others will still beat his Olimar without it being super close - but my Luigi just gets bodied, or so it feels to me).
While I admittedly don't know how bad 2.X.6 Zelda v Bowser actually was, in some ways I think it felt like this - Bowser/Luigi has a solid wall of damage coming at them in the form of Zelda/Olimar's Pikmin, and they can each run away and play stupidly safe while the other character has to work desperately to get in and must make every hit count so much more than the opponent. Or is there some hidden tool I'm missing? (Down+B can help a little, but it's very poor for setting up combos, at least in my experience...)
While I admittedly don't know how bad 2.X.6 Zelda v Bowser actually was, in some ways I think it felt like this - Bowser/Luigi has a solid wall of damage coming at them in the form of Zelda/Olimar's Pikmin, and they can each run away and play stupidly safe while the other character has to work desperately to get in and must make every hit count so much more than the opponent. Or is there some hidden tool I'm missing? (Down+B can help a little, but it's very poor for setting up combos, at least in my experience...)
Like what Bent said, Luigi's Cyclone disrupts my plays often. Try Utilting out of it?
PowerUp
Well-Known Member
Cyclone shouldn't work on a decent Olimar. Pikmin grab is a thing. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's unwinnable for Luigi, but don't expect to win on the neutral stages. Luigi's problem is that his aerial approach is slow and floaty, giving Olimar plenty of time to react and punish. Olimar is fairly predictable, so you can try and bait him out and get punishes.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I forgot the dash attack shenganigans Luigi has, but Olimar should be staying far enough away to just jump those, and I have no idea what a Cancelled Luigi Cyclone is, but it all of a sudden makes things sound way less gross. Someone care to explain what it is and how to do it?
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
its just attacking out of cyclone
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Can anybody help me with these chars?
ZSS
Ivy
DK
ZSS
Ivy
DK
Vauss
Active Member
Playing as them, or against them?
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
You can't beat a good ZSS. Sorry.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Against them
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
NEWB
Well-Known Member
A zamus that can space is a nightmare. She has great aerials and great range with sideb air approach.
If you can manage to avoid her neutral B and avoid getting above her, your in a good spot.
Also, avoiding all the suit pieces is indeed step one.
Ivy is kinda tough. His upb makes it hard to approach from the air and he has a projectile that runs along the ground. He also great throws and grab range. You can't really avoid all of that. Your gonna have to play a good ivy and just learn his attack patterns.
He is most vulnerable when recovering with upb. Again, he could just fly with nuetral B instead, so I suggest not chasing him offstage when he is recovering but smack him offstage and finish him off instead. Don't be too ashamed if you have to edgehog him either.
Gonna have to learn how he plays DK. DK has great range on his moves, but they are laggy. Spotdodge or perfect shield the right move and retaliate. You can combo him easily because his weight. You NEED to learn to DI his combos. Try using his barrels against him, as they aren't easy to use or abuse at times. He also has badish recovery, so smack him from above and he's dead.
If you can manage to avoid her neutral B and avoid getting above her, your in a good spot.
Also, avoiding all the suit pieces is indeed step one.
Ivy is kinda tough. His upb makes it hard to approach from the air and he has a projectile that runs along the ground. He also great throws and grab range. You can't really avoid all of that. Your gonna have to play a good ivy and just learn his attack patterns.
He is most vulnerable when recovering with upb. Again, he could just fly with nuetral B instead, so I suggest not chasing him offstage when he is recovering but smack him offstage and finish him off instead. Don't be too ashamed if you have to edgehog him either.
Gonna have to learn how he plays DK. DK has great range on his moves, but they are laggy. Spotdodge or perfect shield the right move and retaliate. You can combo him easily because his weight. You NEED to learn to DI his combos. Try using his barrels against him, as they aren't easy to use or abuse at times. He also has badish recovery, so smack him from above and he's dead.
Vauss
Active Member
vs ZSS
She has a lot of stuff that can lead to ridiculous damage combos, and potential 0-deaths, particularly if she gets you into a juggle, so try to DI out as best you can, but it's not easy if your opponent reads you well. That said, she has a lot of weaknesses.
Get in close, but just out of her jab range. She can't really sideB or grab you at that range, and she has nothing fast enough to do much about it there. Her fair and bair are good spacing tools and combo weapons, but not very good panic buttons. In fact, she has no panic button. Get her on the defensive, and she's boned. She has no sex kick, no shield grab, no upB out of shield. And obviously, she's very limited by her tether only recovery, so take the opportunity to gimp her when you can. Look out for a dair or upB spike though. It also helps to have a small character, as her hitboxes tend to be have very specific heights, so a small target can throw off her approaches.
vs Ivy
Offensively, he has some very safe moves. Look out for ivycopter and ftilt, bair, fair approaches. He also has the copter to recovery with, so try to kill with low angle shots so you can gimp his recovery. Do what you can to try to bait out his unsafe moves, uair, dair, leaf storm and usmashes, or wait till he gets into a razor leaf throwing pattern and surprise him with a jump in.
vs DK
no clue. I don't play DK, nor do I play against anyone who does
She has a lot of stuff that can lead to ridiculous damage combos, and potential 0-deaths, particularly if she gets you into a juggle, so try to DI out as best you can, but it's not easy if your opponent reads you well. That said, she has a lot of weaknesses.
Get in close, but just out of her jab range. She can't really sideB or grab you at that range, and she has nothing fast enough to do much about it there. Her fair and bair are good spacing tools and combo weapons, but not very good panic buttons. In fact, she has no panic button. Get her on the defensive, and she's boned. She has no sex kick, no shield grab, no upB out of shield. And obviously, she's very limited by her tether only recovery, so take the opportunity to gimp her when you can. Look out for a dair or upB spike though. It also helps to have a small character, as her hitboxes tend to be have very specific heights, so a small target can throw off her approaches.
vs Ivy
Offensively, he has some very safe moves. Look out for ivycopter and ftilt, bair, fair approaches. He also has the copter to recovery with, so try to kill with low angle shots so you can gimp his recovery. Do what you can to try to bait out his unsafe moves, uair, dair, leaf storm and usmashes, or wait till he gets into a razor leaf throwing pattern and surprise him with a jump in.
vs DK
no clue. I don't play DK, nor do I play against anyone who does
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
You're all doing it wrong. The eay to beat them is by playing jigglypuff.
Rest.
Win.
Rest.
Win.
Thor
Well-Known Member
ZSS does have jab and utilt as panic options, but utilt is not safe on shield and jab isn't either (I think). Her best option OoS is either jab, utilt, or uair I believe.
Ivysaur can be hit out of the Ivycopter with transcendent projectiles, which is great news for Falco and Wolf, but not so good for Sheik, Pit, or ZSS (at last check - though the whip MIGHT work?). You're pretty much NEVER going to hit her out of Ivycopter with a physical attack, except maybe a very well spaced fsmash from Ike or Roy, or charged grouned up+b from Link - the thing has insane range.
DK is annoying. A good DK WILL zero-death you if you can't DI and tech VERY well, and he's fast enough to predict on tech-chasing, so mix up your teching. You can try to zone him or out zero-death him - I think Olimar and ROB have the advantage on DK and the characters with consistent zero-deaths (Captain Falcon) I think go even with him. I think Falco is even as well.
Ivysaur can be hit out of the Ivycopter with transcendent projectiles, which is great news for Falco and Wolf, but not so good for Sheik, Pit, or ZSS (at last check - though the whip MIGHT work?). You're pretty much NEVER going to hit her out of Ivycopter with a physical attack, except maybe a very well spaced fsmash from Ike or Roy, or charged grouned up+b from Link - the thing has insane range.
DK is annoying. A good DK WILL zero-death you if you can't DI and tech VERY well, and he's fast enough to predict on tech-chasing, so mix up your teching. You can try to zone him or out zero-death him - I think Olimar and ROB have the advantage on DK and the characters with consistent zero-deaths (Captain Falcon) I think go even with him. I think Falco is even as well.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Does Falco even have a bad MU in this game
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Boozer? How? I just dair > utilt pillar
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Will test