Daily Match-up Discussion

Pin Clock

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Here's something I thought I'd like to do, as I don't see much of it: Let's discuss the specific character match-ups in Minus. See what works against who, and what should be kept in mind when facing certain foes! To keep things interesting, we'll change up what MU is being discussed every day, decided by either the thread or at random!

Let's start out with one that was notorious in 2.x.6: Bowser vs. Zelda! How has this MU changed in MAX? Can the King of the Koopas get a better grip against the hylian Princess? Can Zelda rule over him still?

What are your thoughts on this match-up, how it works, and how it has changed?
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I love this idea!

I main bowser, or I at least play him. I will challenge anyone's zelda.

My first instinct would be to say that any decent zelda plus fair spam will win against him, but I'll give it a shot!
 
Pin Clock

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Not much discussions, eh? Well I'll provide some input.

It's still pretty bad for the Koopa King, all things considered. Zelda's low weight means nothing when she can crush him with a single combo. She doesn't care for his grabs as she can start combos form a distance, in which if Bowser RRs she can just avoid and punish. Zelda's bAir can, on occasion, hit Bowser with both hitboxes, and his size screams "KILL ME". In turn, Bowser's main defense is the armor on his run animation, which is strong enough to resist Zelda's distant hitboxes on her aerials and her fTilt. It's still really hard for Bowser, but not as hard as it was previously.

Also Shiek can hurt bowser really bad as well, but not as bad as Zelda
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
For the most part, it all on depends on what bowser does. If he calls her attacks correctly and tanks through it, he can deal some damage. Zelda pretty much has the advantage at all times, but a great bowser player probably can best a decent zelda player on occasion.

I know tweaks to characters may be made only because of specific matchups. Is there a way that bowser can be buffed either against zelda or zelda nerfed against bowser without effecting other matchups? Like make bowser auto tank through her ranged dtilt or whatever we call the distant hitbox? That attack lands so easily, and bowser has no defense against it. Maybe make bowser resist fire because of Zelda's Din's fire that also hurts him more because of his size. I would think that fire shouldn't bother him very much.
 
Glyph

Glyph

Moderator
This is a fantastic idea, but I think maybe a better way to approach it is to focus on a singular character each time. We could discuss their strenghts and weaknesses, as well as what other characters have a good/terrible matchup against them. This also opens the discussion up more as you only need to be familiar with one character, rather than a specific matchup with them (since I know things about Bowser, and I know things about Zelda, but I don't know SQUAT about Zelda vs Bowser).

I'd like to see some discussion on D3 from you guys. I firmly believe he is the second best character in the game at the moment when you embrace minion spam and shield grabbing. Even the hardest spacing characters like Zelda and Ivy lose out to him when he plays smart.
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
But matchups are what the game is balanced around, not the builds themselves. Simply balancing a build for itself is what causes op characters in the first place because they were made above other characters unintentionally.

I think.
 
Glyph

Glyph

Moderator
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm talking about what subjects we should cover in this thread, not how characters are designed.

EDIT: The amount of people who can talk about Bowser OR Zelda is way way bigger than the number of people who just happen to play one of the two of those characters regularly against a good player using the other. Sure we could take stabs in the dark at it without playing, but if we want the most meaningful discussion I think we should step back a bit and broaden the category.

For example, Bowser/Zelda could be a massacre for either character. Zelda might be able to easily space Bowser, or Bowser could abuse his super armor to get in close and seal the deal (especially considering how light Zelda is and how slim her close game options are compared to her ranged). Those are technically not wrong, but I also can't say anything more beyond that. I don't know what happens in the matchup.
 
Pin Clock

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Let's try and bring this thread back by discussing Mario vs. Captain Falcon!

from my Mario subbing experience, I say Falcon isn't too hard for Mario to deal with. Falcon's approaches can be played around with by applying more fireballs, but while both Mario and Falcon possess deadly combos they can use on each other, Mario seems to be able to combo Falcon slightly better than the vice versa.

Also as for dealing with Metal Mario, have you tried using chaingrabs with the down or up throws? Metal Mario is actually a really risky thing for Mario to do due to how easily he is chaingrabbed.

Thoughts and opinions on this match-up?
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
You would have to either perfect sheild to grab him out of dash attack, or grab him without sheilding. This obviously works better if you have good grab range, if you try to grab him without sheilding that is.

As much as doing those things is kinda hard to do, it is a skill that has benefits if you learn the timing. I'm able to grab jiggly out of rollout and of course, squirtle out of side b.

Can we see replays of your metal Mario?
 
Tybis

Tybis

Resident Minusaur
Minus Backroom
Mario definitely has the upper hand, Metal or not! I've played both sides of this matchup, and Mario's ability to keep away, force approach, and ruin recoveries makes this tricky for Captain. Mario can steadily force him away with smart fireballs, and make Falcon's approaches actually overshoot past him... and once Mario can edgeguard vs Falcon, there's little hope. Mario's cape makes Falcon look the fool, flying towards the blastline instead of the ledge. That little square of fabric is EVIL.
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
This^

I should have started out with this. Also because of his fludd, Mario can screw with virtually all of falcons approaches. Falcon should be able to land hits on Mario if falcon predicts how Mario will counter and change up his game. Keep in mind that falcon can kick through Mario's fireballs. Falcons only chance of winning is if the Mario player isn't good at reading falcon.
 
Baby_Sneak

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
Bumped, because this thread didn't deserve to go die.

Ness vs puff is DEFINITLY in puff's favor. Once ness is doing his up-b, it's gravity ---> GG
 
Baby_Sneak

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
Oh yea, and wolf vs fox MU seems super fun.
 
B

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
Baby_Sneak said:
Bumped, because this thread didn't deserve to go die.

Ness vs puff is DEFINITLY in puff's favor. Once ness is doing his up-b, it's gravity ---> GG
Click to expand...

That's like one thing jiggs has on Ness. Ness has more options, more KO combos, more ways to mixup and screw with jiggs. Jiggs has the game offstage but onstage, its all bad. Have you even tried getting around Ness's fairs with jiggs. It's not even worth trying. I'd say its 40/60 in Ness's favor.
Baby_Sneak said:
Oh yea, and wolf vs fox MU seems super fun.
Click to expand...

A good wolf eats fox before breakfast.
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
You must play a good ness bash. I mean, I know that about ness too, but I usually can get the ness offstage just once so I can have sexy funtime. Granted my play group plays minus casually and doesn't practice or can't practice.
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Like once or twice. I have no idea who I played, but I'm gonna guess I was either a counter or the lag was bad. I don't know if I won, but I was not impressed.
 
B

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
Well, theres a match of me vs glyph on youtube that I'd like to use as evidence. I could NOT play that match the way I wanted to. Ness just outright outspaces Jiggs.
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Can you post it here? Nothing wrong with putting an MU video here. This is the thread for it.
 
NEWB

NEWB

Well-Known Member
The beginning of that match was just you doing poorly and throwing out moves on whiff. It felt like for the first half of the match, you were too cautious. You had a lot of problems because you jumped so much. Usually at good times but many times you should have shielded and done dtilt or utilt or just simply shielded and rolled away. You seemed to realize that because you did a lot better as soon as you started being on the ground more and utilting him when he was on platforms. Ness usually does an aerial and lands, which is where you react out of shield and do something. You also just let him jump back to the ledge when you should been there to force him do an aerial. He might hit you with fair or Nair, but he would miss the ledge. This would leave him to do upb, which is where you can gimp him or get to that ledge so you can dtilt him while he tries to get up. His methods of getting back on stage from the ledge are standard and should be no problem for Jiggs.
 
B

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
NEWB said:
The beginning of that match was just you doing poorly and throwing out moves on whiff. It felt like for the first half of the match, you were too cautious. You had a lot of problems because you jumped so much. Usually at good times but many times you should have shielded and done dtilt or utilt or just simply shielded and rolled away. You seemed to realize that because you did a lot better as soon as you started being on the ground more and utilting him when he was on platforms. Ness usually does an aerial and lands, which is where you react out of shield and do something. You also just let him jump back to the ledge when you should been there to force him do an aerial. He might hit you with fair or Nair, but he would miss the ledge. This would leave him to do upb, which is where you can gimp him or get to that ledge so you can dtilt him while he tries to get up. His methods of getting back on stage from the ledge are standard and should be no problem for Jiggs.
Click to expand...

1. I was not cautious until my third stock. Even there I just started thinking.
2. Theory doesn't always apply to actual game. You can talk about the mistakes I made but what did Ness do to put me in those positions? How easy was it for him to do so?
 
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