Charizard 4.0b Feedback

[Turk Injaydii]

Charizard's special moves don't seem very useful outside of Fly. Stealth Rock's random rock placement makes it good sometimes, but there are others when all the rocks just clump together. Can the move he edited to be have better rock placement? If its not possible to make more consistently useful rock placement, he'd be better off w/ Smash 4 Rock Smash or PM Heat Wave.

Neutral B is just a very unviable move. I love its premise, but it has too many things wrong with it for it to be useful. Long start up, very slow projectile, and you can't even mix up the shot well because he just falls if you use it in the air. The move may have potential, but it needs A LOT of work. Less startup and/or cool down, make him hover in place if in the air so he can line up shots, make the fire ball faster or make bigger if the sluggish start up isn't adjusted...and any other ideas others would like to add. As is though, that move is borderline unusable competitively. Not trying to be rude, just being frank.

Aerial down B just odd. Not being able to glide back up just looks and feels off. With as much as I've seen yall mention the importance of presentation, surprised yall made this move this way. It doesn't really look like gliding. It looks as if he's been put on a set rail that he has to follow to the end...and even if the move was adjusted to actually look and feel like gliding, its still kind of boring, imo. I'll make another thread with suggestions for it.

In closing, just want to say that this is all feedback given with good intentions. Hope it doesn't seem like I'm stepping on any toes. I just feel Zard needs some work to be made more interesting and more viable against the rest of the cast.

 

[Thor]

I think neutral B is pretty good. You can aim it and it can edgeguard decently vs recoveries that are linear but otherwise hard to mess with [Falco, Ganondorf when you're down a stock, etc.]. The projectile is pretty fast in my opinion, relative to its power, and does good shield damage as far as I know, so at the very worst, it's FAR better than anything people pretend is a projectile on Ganondorf. It also has some interesting uses vs Samus, since you can shoot it while she's charging her charge shot and she basically has to do something that involves cancelling the charge shot charge [which is true vs other characters with charge moves as well]. And there may be a way to combo into it, although I'm not sure [you'll at least force someone to get out of tumble and airdodge]. It's also significantly more useful in FFA and teams in my opinion [and teams is certainly a competitive format], which isn't the primary consideration of the backroom, but if the move had less startup and moved faster, it would definitely annoy the FFA players, so that's not likely.

The aiming on it is kinda whack though, I'll give it that.

If the first stealth rock doesn't work how you want it to, he's usually protected enough to just kinda use it again, and if he's not aiming to set up the stealth rock but actually use the move, the rock pieces are just a bonus. I think it's fine as it is, given the massive damage output and armor on the primary move. And I think Smash 4 rock smash does less damage than Minus rock smash, so I don't know why that'd be useful... and PM Heat Wave just feels like Charizard is sneezing, I think Rock Smash fits him better.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Flare Sneeze confirmed for Sun

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I think neutral B is pretty good. You can aim it and it can edgeguard decently vs recoveries that are linear but otherwise hard to mess with [Falco, Ganondorf when you're down a stock, etc.]. The projectile is pretty fast in my opinion, relative to its power, and does good shield damage as far as I know, so at the very worst, it's FAR better than anything people pretend is a projectile on Ganondorf. It also has some interesting uses vs Samus, since you can shoot it while she's charging her charge shot and she basically has to do something that involves cancelling the charge shot charge [which is true vs other characters with charge moves as well]. And there may be a way to combo into it, although I'm not sure [you'll at least force someone to get out of tumble and airdodge]. It's also significantly more useful in FFA and teams in my opinion [and teams is certainly a competitive format], which isn't the primary consideration of the backroom, but if the move had less startup and moved faster, it would definitely annoy the FFA players, so that's not likely.

The aiming on it is kinda whack though, I'll give it that.

If the first stealth rock doesn't work how you want it to, he's usually protected enough to just kinda use it again, and if he's not aiming to set up the stealth rock but actually use the move, the rock pieces are just a bonus. I think it's fine as it is, given the massive damage output and armor on the primary move. And I think Smash 4 rock smash does less damage than Minus rock smash, so I don't know why that'd be useful... and PM Heat Wave just feels like Charizard is sneezing, I think Rock Smash fits him better.

I disagree about aiming neutral b. Aiming is extremely limited due to the fact that he can only use it grounded; even if he uses all jumps, he falls to the ground before he shoots. That coupled with the start up makes it as obvious as a gandoken; another awful projectile, though Zard's is a bit better since it travels much further.

As for Rock Smash, idk. You're probably right about it being better than Smash 4's...more than anything I'd like to see him get a new move. He's a fire/flying that looks like a dragon. And you literally NEVER teach a Zard Rock Smash (and he can't learn Stealth Rock) in Pokemon. So why make him have such an uncharacteristic move? Nintendo started it, but PM tried to be true to the character by giving him a moveset with just fire and flying moves. I'd love to see Minus try...Zard just feels off right now. Megasaturn agreed with me in the other Zard thread I started (I'd tag him, but I honestly dont know how in here lol).

 

[Thor]

I disagree about aiming neutral b. Aiming is extremely limited due to the fact that he can only use it grounded; even if he uses all jumps, he falls to the ground before he shoots. That coupled with the start up makes it as obvious as a gandoken; another awful projectile, though Zard's is a bit better since it travels much further.

As for Rock Smash, idk. You're probably right about it being better than Smash 4's...more than anything I'd like to see him get a new move. He's a fire/flying that looks like a dragon. And you literally NEVER teach a Zard Rock Smash (and he can't learn Stealth Rock) in Pokemon. So why make him have such an uncharacteristic move? Nintendo started it, but PM tried to be true to the character by giving him a moveset with just fire and flying moves. I'd love to see Minus try...Zard just feels off right now. Megasaturn agreed with me in the other Zard thread I started (I'd tag him, but I honestly dont know how in here lol).

By whack I mean I can rarely make it fire straight ahead... the default angle is like slightly downward, and while it's easy to get it to fire upward, anything in between is pretty tricky. It feels limited, but due to how they implemented aiming, not because it's intended to not be aimable [I think?].

Zard's projectile is also better than Gandouken because it anti-airs better, it hits harder [I think his does 25% vs like 15% on Gandouken?], and he can use it while hiding behind stealth rock, which means unlike Ganondorf he's not always wide open every time he uses the move. If you're trying to use it without a stealth rock up then yeah it's bad, but it stops charge moves, can be done behind a barrier of floating rocks, and [as I said before], can be done to intercept certain recoveries. I imagine it can also demolish Olimar's pikmin that aren't red pretty effectively, although I don't know how his dtilt interacts with stealth rocks.

Rock Smash/stealth rock may not seem very accurate flavor-wise, but it fits well in his tools and makes his neutral B more useful. I think it's fine as is.

[I still remember when Bent said he thought Blast Burn would get nerfed because of how much better it was than Flamethrower...]

 

[Turk Injaydii]

By whack I mean I can rarely make it fire straight ahead... the default angle is like slightly downward, and while it's easy to get it to fire upward, anything in between is pretty tricky. It feels limited, but due to how they implemented aiming, not because it's intended to not be aimable [I think?].

Zard's projectile is also better than Gandouken because it anti-airs better, it hits harder [I think his does 25% vs like 15% on Gandouken?], and he can use it while hiding behind stealth rock, which means unlike Ganondorf he's not always wide open every time he uses the move. If you're trying to use it without a stealth rock up then yeah it's bad, but it stops charge moves, can be done behind a barrier of floating rocks, and [as I said before], can be done to intercept certain recoveries. I imagine it can also demolish Olimar's pikmin that aren't red pretty effectively, although I don't know how his dtilt interacts with stealth rocks.

Rock Smash/stealth rock may not seem very accurate flavor-wise, but it fits well in his tools and makes his neutral B more useful. I think it's fine as is.

[I still remember when Bent said he thought Blast Burn would get nerfed because of how much better it was than Flamethrower...]

Can we at least agree that it would be very beneficial (and make much more sense) for Zard to hover in place while he flaps his wings before firing the shot? It looks extremely dumb for him to fall as he flaps his wings, and it would give Zard much more options when aiming.

On another note, I believe fair needs some attention. If hit while on the ground, CPU can just immediately tech and punish. Additionally, it has virtually no knock back or hitstun unless the opponent is touching Zard when hit. The move may look like it has far reach, but none of reach matters since the only respectable hitbox is right on Zard. I get making that hitbox the strongest, but the move should still have some noticeable knockback and hitstun on the extended hitboxes.

 

[Thor]

Can we at least agree that it would be very beneficial (and make much more sense) for Zard to hover in place while he flaps his wings before firing the shot? It looks extremely dumb for him to fall as he flaps his wings, and it would give Zard much more options when aiming.

On another note, I believe fair needs some attention. If hit while on the ground, CPU can just immediately tech and punish. Additionally, it has virtually no knock back or hitstun unless the opponent is touching Zard when hit. The move may look like it has far reach, but none of reach matters since the only respectable hitbox is right on Zard. I get making that hitbox the strongest, but the move should still have some noticeable knockback and hitstun on the extended hitboxes.

I'd be down if he floated in place when he used it. I don't think it should happen more than once or twice per airtime though, otherwise he'd be able to stall offstage.

The second thing you mentioned is actually something Baby_Sneak and I have complained/pushed to be changed for quite a long time, and I think Pin Clock said the dev team would buff it for 4.0f [they originally thought we meant fair sending people the wrong way was the issue for 4.0 and changed it to only send one direction, which is why that's in the 4.0b changelog].

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'd be down if he floated in place when he used it. I don't think it should happen more than once or twice per airtime though, otherwise he'd be able to stall offstage.

The second thing you mentioned is actually something Baby_Sneak and I have complained/pushed to be changed for quite a long time, and I think Pin Clock said the dev team would buff it for 4.0f [they originally thought we meant fair sending people the wrong way was the issue for 4.0 and changed it to only send one direction, which is why that's in the 4.0b changelog].

Definitely agree it would need to be just one per air time.

Fingers crossed for fair getting buffed!!!

P.S. How do u tag folks???

 

[Thor]

Definitely agree it would need to be just one per air time.

Fingers crossed for fair getting buffed!!!

P.S. How do u tag folks???

I just use an at symbol, then type the name, and often let autocomplete do the rest [sometimes it's more willing than others].

Example: Turk Injaydii [I typed "@Turk" and it offered a dropdown with the rest of the name, so I clicked it, and voila!]

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I just use an at symbol, then type the name, and often let autocomplete do the rest [sometimes it's more willing than others].

Example: Turk Injaydii [I typed "@Turk" and it offered a dropdown with the rest of the name, so I clicked it, and voila!]

Thank you!