Can Link get some kind of nerf?

[Thanatoast]

Honestly, Link as of right now is ridiculously godlike. The sword's jab chain deals far too much knockback, and has little to no cooldown, which just allows him to continually dish out 30% damage, which leads characters to just die near instantly on levels that happen to have walls (Shadow Moses, for example). In addition, it feels like every attack that Link does has the knockback capacity of a smash attack. I can understand the little flavor that the team is going with, what with it being the Master Sword, the sword of evil's bane, etc etc. But honestly, it takes so much effort to approach Link, and all the opponent has to do is mash A two or three times and you're back to the start, but suffering knockback stun, so when you get you you get met with the boomerang, which gladly tacks on an additional 10-15% damage while setting you up for a charged spin attack, bomb arrow, bomb, or smash attack, causing even the heaviest of characters then die at 80%. Add that in with the ungodly speed that he has with his ranged attacks (capable of flooding the arena with the Gale Boomerang, two bombs, and a half-charged arrow in about two or three seconds) makes the field worse than having Smashville fully loaded with the new Waddle Dees and Waddle Doos. Yeah, you could hypothetically use a reflector character, but anyone who has played Link for more than a single round knows that you can just run up and use your sword, which is ridiculously in terms of dishing out attack and damage, and now we're back to square one. It may be "how you're supposed to play Link," but if Link's big weak spot is up close combat (which it really isn't), then why give him the ability to knock back enemies with one single quick combo that anyone can do?

Proposals:
-Reduce Link's knockback and damage on his sword-based attacks
-Reduce the speed and damage of his Boomerang and bombs.
-Increase Link's cooldown period between ranged attacks
-Increase his landlag from dAir, uAir, increase cooldown with jabs, tilts, smashes

Responses? Thoughts?

 

[Kien]

Proposals:
-Reduce Link's knockback and damage on his sword-based attacks
-Reduce the speed and damage of his Boomerang and bombs.
-Increase Link's cooldown period between ranged attacks
-Increase his landlag from dAir, uAir, increase cooldown with jabs, tilts, smashes

Responses? Thoughts?

Link's weakness isn't supposed to be up close combat. His weakness is his weight, slow attacks, and predictable recovery. Damage wise he excels but his attacks don't KO as early as even half of the minus roster. As for your proposoals...

No
No
We're doing that. Check my custom build for the actual Link going in the next release.
No. There's no reason to do that. His jabs are slow and walls can't be balanced around. His tilts are his only reliable setup/KO moves, and his smashes are all horribly punishable.

 

[Thanatoast]

Link's weakness isn't supposed to be up close combat. His weakness is his weight, slow attacks, and predictable recovery. Damage wise he excels but his attacks don't KO as early as even half of the minus roster. As for your proposoals...

No
No
We're doing that. Check my custom build for the actual Link going in the next release.
No. There's no reason to do that. His jabs are slow and walls can't be balanced around. His tilts are his only reliable setup/KO moves, and his smashes are all horribly punishable.

Noted. His attacks aren't really that slow, but I can understand the weight and recovery argument. I suppose. My intention wasn't that ALL of my proposals get in, just at least one be considered, and seeing that one of them is, that's more than good enough (ignore the fact that it was thought up and done prior to said post). I will disagree with "His tilts are his only reliable setup/KO moves, and his smashes are all horribly punishable," as short-hop-into-DAir is quick and powerful enough to be in that category of "reliable KO moves," and they don't need to be spiked with it to be killed.
But, I digress. I got a response and input, so I'm pleased.

 

[Kien]

Well, it's more like this. How many combos can Link start with his down/side/up smashes? Not many if any. Once his opponent reaches around 40% he has to rely on tilts to start combos, though jab locks are entirely different. (They've been in the game since Vbrawl) I'm not saying that Link is a snail by any means, but his attacks are among the slowest in the game. Like top 5 if I'm not mistaken. Short hop into dair isn't that quick, but I suppose if you're getting hit by it then your guard isn't really up. There's nothing that can setup into it considering it's a shorthop attack. I guess the gale boomerang, but you shouldn't be getting caught by that return trip.

 

[Thor]

Thanatoast, you've complained about Ganondorf and Link but not Sheik? I don't understand this logic XD.

Link's jab1 should be frame 4 or frame 3 but his jab combo should be reduced to do 11 or 12% in my opinion from 18% [I think that's it as of now, and I think that's way too much damage for the utility it has - but its utility is still subpar, and I prefer added utility over added damage].

Link's smashes are kinda punishable, but really not that bad. Fsmash is totally safe on shield as of now [from what I've seen].

If you can deal with projectiles, getting in vs Link is not that bad. As Kien said, he's combo food. And please shield boomerangs.

Dair and uair don't need more landing lag, if I remember correctly I used to think uair should have a bit less [and maybe dair should have less too - PM's L-cancelled dair only has 20, I think Brawl- has 25 or so, not sure though].

Maybe I just play the really broken characters [Falco being built around dair is good and bad - he's fun, but dair is just dumb... Sheik is REALLY dumb, Fox is too, etc.] so I don't see Link/Ganondorf/etc. to be a problem.

Thanatoast, if you want to see a character that was TRULY problematic, go play Max 1.0 and play Sheik or Lucario or maybe ROB. THAT will show you characters that were too strong.

 

[Kien]

Thor... if Link's jab were frame 4 he'd be extremely good. I'm pretty sure it's frame 5 or 6 as of 3.Q.

 

[Thor]

Thor... if Link's jab were frame 4 he'd be extremely good. I'm pretty sure it's frame 5 or 6 as of 3.Q.

That's the point?

 

[Kien]

I didn't know that was the point.

 

[Thor]

I didn't know that was the point.

I'm not of the opinion Link is really that good. Like, he's good, but so is everyone else.

I kind of want Link's close combat game to be a bit more rewarding, and to see bombs kill a bit later, so I think if you knocked like 5 or 10 KBG off bombs [also conveniently allowing bomb combos a bit easier], but made his jab faster, he'd be able to go in a bit more, but his camping would be slightly less rewarding.

I also just think he needs a faster jab after playing him some to be fully honest.

 

[Kien]

Sooo many people complained when I buffed Link's jab speed by 2 frames in 3.Q. Well, at least now you know why. I like how his Bombs work to be honest. I don't want Link comboing with Bombs, they feel good as finishers. Toon Link uses his for combos anyway.

 

[Thor]

Sooo many people complained when I buffed Link's jab speed by 2 frames in 3.Q. Well, at least now you know why. I like how his Bombs work to be honest. I don't want Link comboing with Bombs, they feel good as finishers. Toon Link uses his for combos anyway.

I don't think 10 KBG makes them not finishers, just that they finish, say, 20% later, but then they also allow you to combo more easily, which I think makes Link more flexible. I wasn't trying to say "Make bombs no longer KO", I was trying to say "Make a bombs a little less strong so he can combo easier at mid-percents, but he'll have to KO a bit later if he wants to kill with bombs." [For some reason I remember bombs killing about 120% - maybe that's too low? I think they shouldn't kill around earlier than at least 135% or so.]

 

[Thanatoast]

Thanatoast, you've complained about Ganondorf and Link but not Sheik? I don't understand this logic XD.

I didn't complain about Sheik much because with the group of around 4 or 5 people I play with, the characters I've seen that get played by others (and thus I'm most familiar with) are Ganondorf, Link, Marth, Ike, Wolf, and Lucario, whereas I mostly main Pikachu, R.O.B., and putz around with Random. Therefore, when playing, I get more view to these characters and thus more of a solid opinion on them than any of the other characters. Yeah, Sheik was broken as all get-out, and still kind of shines (especially that fAir), and she could probably stand to get toned down a bit in terms of the damage she puts out to counterbalance the sheer speed (maybe something on current Meta Knight level?).

Link's current jab frame is, well, good. It's not as good as others' but I feel that's good enough to have characters fear it when jab-clashing and skewering themselves on it.

Link's jab1 should be frame 4 or frame 3 but his jab combo should be reduced to do 11 or 12% in my opinion from 18% [I think that's it as of now, and I think that's way too much damage for the utility it has - but its utility is still subpar, and I prefer added utility over added damage].

I can agree with that, sans the utility. Reduced Jab damage would be great, but because of it's kinda wide range and knockback, you just jab-jab-jab and they're back half way across Final Destination.

Maybe I just play the really broken characters [Falco being built around dair is good and bad - he's fun, but dair is just dumb... Sheik is REALLY dumb, Fox is too, etc.] so I don't see Link/Ganondorf/etc. to be a problem.

Thanatoast, if you want to see a character that was TRULY problematic, go play Max 1.0 and play Sheik or Lucario or maybe ROB. THAT will show you characters that were too strong.

I'm a bit more familiar with Fox/Falco/Shiek, and I can agree with you there (maybe less-so with Fox, though maybe I'm just using him wrong); as I said before, I wouldn't mind seeing Sheik have a nerf as I usually default to her when the Ganoning begins and she shuts him down for example. And I remember Max 1.0 back in the day and will not even argue that Lucario and maybe R.O.B. were 50 Shades of Broken (I would even argue Lucario still so), and yeah, Link right now and Ganon right now aren't as broken as the previously-mentioned 1.0 fighters.

As for fixing up characters in terms of frame values and the like, I'm about as useful in this situation as a graphics processor is to a TI-30II calculator. I'm still tryin' to figure out how to add in other characters to the roster and the like. I wanna put NiGHTS and Bomberman in it so baaaad. =~=

 

[Neville]

I was wondering though. Why does Link's grab have so little endlag when whiffed?

 

[Thanatoast]

I was wondering though. Why does Link's grab have so little endlag when whiffed?

Probably because if it were longer, he would be too open to getting wailed on. Since his grabs aren't over-the-top fantastic, it shouldn't put him in a position to get beaten to a pulp over something he wouldn't get much out of in the end. At least, that is what I think.

 

[Kien]

I was wondering though. Why does Link's grab have so little endlag when whiffed?

Link's grabs already come out a few frames slower than non ranged grapplers. He also has more endlag than any of them. The endlag being toned down to the extent that it is allows good reads to punish him without him being open to things like full blown smash attacks.

 

[Neville]

Link's grabs already come out a few frames slower than non ranged grapplers. He also has more endlag than any of them. The endlag being toned down to the extent that it is allows good reads to punish him without him being open to things like full blown smash attacks.

What about ZSS?

 

[Thanatoast]

What about ZSS?

If I'm correct (which is a stretch), ZSS's grab launches out there and hovers, letting the grab-window extend for a while before she pulls it back in, and I believe that when she is pulling it in, it STILL can grab folks... With Link, the Clawshot launches out, collapses to the ground, and gets pulled in; the only part of that action that grabs is the initial extension and the end before it falls to the ground. It has less overall time in which a grapple can be initiated than ZSS's, which is then balanced out by reducing the duration of it by cutting down on the time it takes to reel in the clawshot and the time in which Link looks sadly at the collapsed clawshot as he regrets his actions.

 

[NEWB]

Zamus also has better throws I beileve. I may be wrong about that.

 

[Neville]

Link's grabbox seems to linger too though.

 

[Kien]

ZSS has grabs that can lead into extremely long combos and easy KOs regardless of DI. Her throws are better than Link's and provide more options out of them do to her speed. She also has a paralyzer which helps her to set them up, reducing the overall risk of even missing a grab.

 

[Thor]

ZSS has grabs that can lead into extremely long combos and easy KOs regardless of DI. Her throws are better than Link's and provide more options out of them do to her speed. She also has a paralyzer which helps her to set them up, reducing the overall risk of even missing a grab.

Can't she also combo into paralyzer, meaning if she gets a grab without it, she can combo into paralyzer and either regrab or basically do any aerial on a whim off the stun?

 

[Kien]

Yep. Usually that'll be up air. But she can combo into the thing.