C-stick causing jumps when set to attack?

[Lucis Perficio]

Hey everyone, I recently discovered a phenomenal obstacle in my attempt to expand my abilities with the characters I play. However I've been severely impeded by this bug that seems most persistent in Brawl Minus as compared to Smash 4.

Oftentimes while inputting an aerial or tilt move using the c-stick, the result is an accidental jump, or worse, a double jump. I was best able to replicate this in training by rotating the c-stick as fast as possible without returning it to neutral. It wasn't consistent, but it occurred more when I did this than when I tried flicking in random directions. However, when I tried flicking the stick between the diagonals (that's within about thirty degrees of a diagonal input or a vertical/horizontal input), the jump(s) would occasionally occur as well.

When in a match, it happens most often when I try to buffer moves. When using the standard control scheme, I typically press a button once or twice within the buffer frames to ensure that it buffers, while managing to avoid accidentally buffering any additional moves. Trying this with the c-stick set to attack simply does not work from what I can tell. It seems as though buffer frames are more strict as well. I'm not sure if either of these things are related, but I haven't seen any posts on Smashboards about this save for the one I just made.

P.S. Since pressing back on the c-stick when facing a direction yields jab in this game, is it possible for the c-stick to be programmed so that diagonals don't produce jabs as well? It seems odd that jab can be performed in 5 different ways, meanwhile each tilt can only be performed one way. It's like there are more ways to mess up with this control scheme in Minus than there are to be successful, or at least it's much harder in comparison to Smash 4 where c-stick set to attack makes pivoting easier, among other things.

 

[player_03]

Strange C-Stick buffer stuff: This is fixable and we'll fix it.

For the record: as Petro explained back then, this glitch happens when you attempt to buffer an attack with the tilt stick. It doesn't happen any other time.

Also, this glitch was in vBrawl, and I'm pretty sure they fixed it in Smash 4.

Since pressing back on the c-stick when facing a direction yields jab in this game, is it possible for the c-stick to be programmed so that diagonals don't produce jabs as well?

This feature is vital for performing one of Ike's advanced techniques, since it lets you nair and fastfall on the same frame. Don't change it!

 

[Lucis Perficio]

For the record: as Petro explained back then, this glitch happens when you attempt to buffer an attack with the tilt stick. It doesn't happen any other time.

Also, this glitch was in vBrawl, and I'm pretty sure they fixed it in Smash 4.



This feature is vital for performing one of Ike's advanced techniques, since it lets you nair and fastfall on the same frame. Don't change it!

So basically it only happens when you try to buffer, but it thus becomes impossible to buffer c-stick moves. How can Minus not fix this? In Smash 4 my issue with it is that upon landing an auto-cancelled move like Ike's nair and trying to follow-up with another c-stick tilt, the c-stick tilt doesn't register at all, so I'll end up just standing idle for a few frames while I become aware that my input didn't register.

As for Minus, it's incredibly daunting especially in FFA. I can't count the amount of times I either lost a game or missed an opportunity for a rare combo or kill move jbc of this "glitch."

I can only pray that the Minus devs will find a work around for it, but as of now I've posted the same thing three times on how they keep nerfing Ike and not listing the nerfs in the changelog, despite that Pin Clock himself told me that some of those things I mentioned would be kept by Ike. This last part is incredibly off-topic but I'm doing everything I can to get the attention on Minus devs on both of these issues.

 

[player_03]

How can Minus not fix this?

This is fixable and we'll fix it.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I read this. The question refers to the fact that it hasn't already been fixed. I'll be at ease so long as it's fixed by the next patch.

 

[player_03]

They haven't released an update since it was reported.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

They haven't released an update since it was reported.

I'm amazed no one's decided to try (including myself) c-stick set to attack until 4.0BC.

 

[player_03]

It's not that I didn't try it. In fact, I was using tilt stick back in 2012, and I was vaguely aware of the bug. (That video doesn't exactly demonstrate me using the tilt stick; it's just proof that I've been playing a while, and that I used to be pretty terrible. And that Ike's air mobility used to be a lot better.)

I guess the reason I never reported it is because I was used to it, and I could work around it. Though lately (as in, since the release of 4.0BC) I've been discovering techniques that benefit from fast tilt stick aerials, so it's getting harder to work around.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

It's not that I didn't try it. In fact, I was using tilt stick back in 2012, and I was vaguely aware of the bug. (That video doesn't exactly demonstrate me using the tilt stick; it's just proof that I've been playing a while, and that I used to be pretty terrible. And that Ike's air mobility used to be a lot better.)

I guess the reason I never reported it is because I was used to it, and I could work around it. Though lately (as in, since the release of 4.0BC) I've been discovering techniques that benefit from fast tilt stick aerials, so it's getting harder to work around.

How do you work around being unable to buffer c-stick aerials? What exactly did you find about it that could be worked around? The difference between buffering a c-stick move properly and not is pretty substantial considering the frame buffer in Minus/Brawl. Being unable to buffer a move means that it'll essentially come out 3 frames later than if you did buffer it, no?

 

[player_03]

Huh... so I went back to test whether the buffer in Brawl- is really any different from vBrawl, and it turns out that this is a frame-perfect glitch, if not sub-frame-perfect. But first:

Being unable to buffer a move means that it'll essentially come out 3 frames later than if you did buffer it, no?

No. Buffering a move means that you use it on the first possible frame, and as the term "first possible frame" implies, it's possible to use the move on that frame without buffering.

It is true that there is a 2-3 frame delay before an action registers (usually two frames for attacks and three frames for dashes, but even that varies). However, this is independent of the buffer.

In fact, it even takes 2-3 frames to buffer an action! The buffer is ten frames long, so in theory, if you input something more than 10 frames early, nothing happens. But because of this delay, you can actually input the action 12-13 frames early. Also, if you only input the action 1 frame early, it doesn't buffer at all, and it comes out 1-2 frames late.

There are definitely situations where you can't buffer a move. One is ledge-jumping: you can use a move on the first frame that your character isn't touching the stage. However, if you buffer a move here, it won't happen. You'll just jump. To use a move on that exact frame, you have to input it two (or sometimes three) frames early. And this is possible to do, even though the buffer is completely disabled.

So the next question is, why is it so inconsistent? I could maybe understand there being a difference between attacking and dashing, but the same attack can take either two or three frames, seemingly at random. It's usually two, but not always. Why is that?

My guess is that it's a polling thing. The game "polls" the controller to see which buttons are pressed and what the sticks are doing. It does this about 60 times a second, but those 60 times don't necessarily line up with the frames. (If you've ever gone frame-by-frame on Dolphin, and it ignored a one-frame button press, that's why: it happened not to poll during that frame.)

To get back on topic, you perform this glitch by using the tilt stick on the very first frame of buffer. However, I believe it's even more precise than that: not only do you have to do it on the first frame of the buffer, the game has to poll twice during that frame.

I'm just guessing that "twice on one frame" is the criterion, but it would explain something I noticed a while ago: if you go into training mode and set the speed to 1/4, it becomes impossible to use the tilt stick until you've exhausted your jumps. That could be because the game is counting frames at 1/4 speed, but it's still polling at full speed, so it always polls twice per frame.

How do you work around being unable to buffer c-stick aerials?

Turns out, the answer is pretty simple: "just buffer them a bit later than normal." You have one frame that could cause problems, but you still have nine safe frames to work with.

Note that certain moves (Ike's Quick Draw, Roy's fair) mess with the buffer, and therefore you don't have nine safe frames. I assume the same is true of ledge-jumping, but I've spent more than enough time testing for one night.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Huh... so I went back to test whether the buffer in Brawl- is really any different from vBrawl, and it turns out that this is a frame-perfect glitch, if not sub-frame-perfect. But first:



No. Buffering a move means that you use it on the first possible frame, and as the term "first possible frame" implies, it's possible to use the move on that frame without buffering.

It is true that there is a 2-3 frame delay before an action registers (usually two frames for attacks and three frames for dashes, but even that varies). However, this is independent of the buffer.

In fact, it even takes 2-3 frames to buffer an action! The buffer is ten frames long, so in theory, if you input something more than 10 frames early, nothing happens. But because of this delay, you can actually input the action 12-13 frames early. Also, if you only input the action 1 frame early, it doesn't buffer at all, and it comes out 1-2 frames late.

There are definitely situations where you can't buffer a move. One is ledge-jumping: you can use a move on the first frame that your character isn't touching the stage. However, if you buffer a move here, it won't happen. You'll just jump. To use a move on that exact frame, you have to input it two (or sometimes three) frames early. And this is possible to do, even though the buffer is completely disabled.

So the next question is, why is it so inconsistent? I could maybe understand there being a difference between attacking and dashing, but the same attack can take either two or three frames, seemingly at random. It's usually two, but not always. Why is that?

My guess is that it's a polling thing. The game "polls" the controller to see which buttons are pressed and what the sticks are doing. It does this about 60 times a second, but those 60 times don't necessarily line up with the frames. (If you've ever gone frame-by-frame on Dolphin, and it ignored a one-frame button press, that's why: it happened not to poll during that frame.)

To get back on topic, you perform this glitch by using the tilt stick on the very first frame of buffer. However, I believe it's even more precise than that: not only do you have to do it on the first frame of the buffer, the game has to poll twice during that frame.

I'm just guessing that "twice on one frame" is the criterion, but it would explain something I noticed a while ago: if you go into training mode and set the speed to 1/4, it becomes impossible to use the tilt stick until you've exhausted your jumps. That could be because the game is counting frames at 1/4 speed, but it's still polling at full speed, so it always polls twice per frame.



Turns out, the answer is pretty simple: "just buffer them a bit later than normal." You have one frame that could cause problems, but you still have nine safe frames to work with.

Note that certain moves (Ike's Quick Draw, Roy's fair) mess with the buffer, and therefore you don't have nine safe frames. I assume the same is true of ledge-jumping, but I've spent more than enough time testing for one night.

That just about sums up my troubles with Minus. It's hard enough shifting between Smash 4 and Minus based on the game speed and feel alone, but this further adds to my qualms. At this point I've opted not to play Minus until the c-stick buffer issue is fixed, especially considering that Ike (my main, obviously) continues to get nerfed, meanwhile Pin, nor any other moderator has addressed either of my multipresent statements about how qualities he has have been removed despite such not being listed on any of the patch's change lists (to reiterate: QD being uncancellable into QD or specials on the ground despite Ike being able to do both pre-NSM nerf, and at this point it feels redundant to list it all fully because I anticipate it will get ignored).

P.S. based on sheer logic, the statement "first possible frame" doesn't necessarily imply that it can be performed via both a-sticking and with a normal input. It simply implies that there is a point which inputs would NOT register (if done too early, or too late, as the rest of your argument supports).

Either way I'm thankful for such a committed response, which at this point I've deemed rare or otherwise uncharacteristic of the mods themselves in the forum (that is assuming you're not a mod, otherwise my statement falls short).

 

[player_03]

That just about sums up my troubles with Minus. It's hard enough shifting between Smash 4 and Minus based on the game speed and feel alone, but this further adds to my qualms.

To be fair, it was in vBrawl originally, and the Minus team is going to fix it promptly.

Ike (my main, obviously) continues to get nerfed

And buffed. I for one appreciated the buff to his jump -> uair height. I'm not sure it was enough of a buff, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

to reiterate: QD being uncancellable into QD or specials on the ground despite Ike being able to do both pre-NSM nerf

For what it's worth, Ike couldn't do that back in the 2.X days either, so this is really just a return to form.

at this point it feels redundant to list it all fully because I anticipate it will get ignored

If you only post it in this thread? Yeah, it'll be ignored.

The dev team are busy, so they mostly just read the suggestions thread.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

To be fair, it was in vBrawl originally, and the Minus team is going to fix it promptly.



And buffed. I for one appreciated the buff to his jump -> uair height. I'm not sure it was enough of a buff, but I appreciate it nonetheless.



For what it's worth, Ike couldn't do that back in the 2.X days either, so this is really just a return to form.



If you only post it in this thread? Yeah, it'll be ignored.

The dev team are busy, so they mostly just read the suggestions thread.

It being in vBrawl is all he more reason as to why I think it should have been fixed earlier on, fair as it is. Also, in saying that Ike gets nerfed I don't mean that he's exclusively being nerfed. I do enjoy his new jump height and uair height (though from what I can tell it was mainly done to balance w/ physics changes), but Ike has lost other things that helped him in previous patches and he seems to lose more than he gains, as it seems you would agree. He's also going to lose the windbox on fair, which makes he move now mostly unsafe if perfect blocked (which is easy for a move like that), and harder to space out of QD since if perfect blocked while Ike has forward momentum, both he and his opponent would be moving in the same direction (unless Ike fastfalls precisely but it still limits his options imo).

Ike being reverted to vBrawl would also be a "return to a form" though it wouldn't make sense because his is Minus. My qualms however aren't necessarily that Ike no longer has the things which I speak of, but that the devteam (or at least Pin Clock) told me that Ike wouldn't lose these things, and when he change list came out, not only did he lose some of those things, the removal of them WASN'T EVEN IN THE CHANGELIST. I understand that modders/devs are busy, otherwise.

At this point however this conversation has become tangential (mainly because my claims were addressed rather redundantly, though I appreciate the attention given to the issue(s) nonetheless).