Brawl Minus v3.3 Tier List Discussion

[Gold_TSG]

Giving him too much priority would put him back where he was in vBrawl, where no character could go through his attacks at all. Couple that with his speed, and he would be able to retaliate against anyone he clangs with, if not just straight up destroy anyone he eats through.

Making him throw the beam sword gives the throw too much power, as it makes even his up throw useless in comparison, since throwing the beam sword does more than enough damage and even has its own KO power. His throws in general aren't bad at all as they are, IMO.

It's because he has such amazing combos that he has to be balanced around them. Making anything do too much damage means he can build it up faster than any character in the game, and giving anything fast too much knockback means be can abuse it for easy kills, which is doubly worse if he had much higher priority. He has a lot of really good options on him right now, and save for a possible tweak here or there, he feels solid to me in what he can dish out.

 

[Thor]

Remove transcendence from MK dsmash or dtilt please. That will fix pretty much all of the issues about TL arrows. Also I thought you could drill-rush or Nado them (though that's kind of slow...).

MK doesn't need massive priority buff otherwise - he's got nado and drill-rush as well as his stupidly-safe-on-shield jab for approaching, plus the other tools you mentioned. Heck, ftilt sets up tech chases at low percents, which is pretty silly. Some of his attacks get eaten through, but that's life - Captain Falcon has attacks eaten through rather regularly, given his lack of disjoint at all.

His combo ability feels to be at about Falco's level, which is to say that there needs to be a lot of errors for a decent combo to go off, as compared to Lucario, Captain Falcon, or DK (or others) where low percent strings are pretty easy.... I'd love to see some of the combos you do (regardless of if you're playing a human or CPU).

Other Aether, we should play MK dittos at some point, if you ever get the WiFi for it...

 

[Glyph]

Slight changes made to the shorthand version of the list, its too late tonight for me to go into full detail on why each change was made but I think they're fairly self evident for the most part.

 

[NEWB]

I don't die easy with MK, but he can die easy. I also disagree about him having no approach. It's not that good, but you are mostly baiting your foe to attack instead of approaching anyway. He doesn't approach well, his attacks are fast enough to force your foe to be defensive or they get hit before they hit you.

His down b is amazing btw. Best recovery option, very fast, very strong, downb plus c stick back has great range and disrupts, and very good at retreating.

 

[AnybodyAgrees]

Pichu shouldn't be bottom tier. He has a back throw that leads really well into offstage thunder for extremely early KOs. He also has surprisingly decent endurance. Pichu also is a great counter to fatties not named DeDeDe, as they're huge targets, and can't recover easily from being meteored by Thunder. He really falls apart against characters with good recovery and/or multiple jumps, though. I don't think Pichu is bottom tier, more that he's around low to mid tier.

 

[Glyph]

Pichu's super low weight and self damage heavily outweigh his advantage in gimping the bigger characters (especially when Pika does the exact same thing much more effectively). Sure Pichu can kill Ganon with a good grab and well timed thunder, but Ganon will kill Pichu with like three hits connecting total. If Pichu had a more effective mixup game like you see out of Pika's Bair, I would agree that he'd have a lot more viability. But as is, I don't see him as a threat on the same level as almost every other character.

 

[NEWB]

I tell people that pichu is still kinda work in progress. He fits in the minus roster, but doesn't compete with the rest of the cast very much.

 

[Thor]

MK's approaches are fairly solid in my opinion, they just don't deal with projectiles all that well - he can down+B in as a mixup (I almost never do this), but nado and drill rush are good approaches, and rather safe, while his dair can be used for some air-camping style approaches and his dtilt and ftilt are good pokes too. He also has a 100% safe on block jab that lets him combo, and I'm pretty sure usmash is ungrabbable on shield as well, and you can dair rather fast to try to cut off OoS stuff. He also has a fantastic grab game. I'd like to know why some people say he has no good approaches, because I just don't believe this.

Pichu is bad. At the very least, Lucario seems to utterly destroys him, moreso than Pikachu by a fair margin.

Also Samus isn't terrible, I've had some pretty nauseating combos with Samus doing over 70% (then ending with charge shot for the full 100+% combos) - she needs some work probably, but where she is I think is a little low.

 

[Radonflux]

I'll just drop some replays here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpjvOVk8bSsbzziFa57uNwk3H8LXaiyNT
maybe some characters will move up the list ya

 

[NEWB]

Wow. That peach has a pretty good offensive game! Her defensive game was very lacking thought. The lucario player is pretty good, but nothing I haven't seen before. The peach really needed to use toad, sheild, and do fthrow in the beginning there. That was pretty painful to watch at first. She should have won that match.

 

[Glyph]

I'm going to be out of town for a few days, but I'll be happy to take a look at those when I get home! Who all is used in them?

 

[Bashdemears]

That is the most agro Yoshi I've ever seen

 

[Baby_Sneak]

that snake needs to work on his spacing...

 

[Bashdemears]

Okay so where is Roy placed?

 

[Pin Clock]

Okay so where is Roy placed?

For a 3.3 tier list? In the "Isn't in this version" tier