Bowser's fireball!

[NEWB]

So people want this right? I know I do! Shouldn't this be easily possible with the exploitation of the hothead? I don't think I'm the first to say that either(Tybis?).

I see bowser using his animations from fire breath of course to instead shoot a hothead from his mouth. This hothead would simply either vanish on impact or explode on impact. If it misses, it can behave like the hothead normaly does without the random electrical damage. In galaxy, his fireballs would circle around the stage the same way a hothead does! It would only cycle once around a stage like fd once maybe? Or he could shoot multiple mini hot heads that don't travel about the stage and just disappear or explode on impact.

Just retexture the hot head to look like a fireball by losing the face. Change the item description in items to Bowser's fireball.

 

[Tybis]

(I've been really busy lately, late reply )

I wouldn't mind Bowser just getting straight up Hotheads. They ARE Mario items, after all. I'm not sure what move they would replace though. If it were a special, then maybe you could hold B to make Bowser use his fiery breath on it to make it grow? Maybe we could even mess with how fast they grow, or their maximum and starting size.

Another item could be the Green Shell, with knockback angle change to go backwards, toward the direction it came from. This way, Bowser could chuck a well-timed shell, and the opponent would literally fall into one of his grabs... or at least be in his range. It could be a projectile on a grapple character that works together with his kit! I know, not a fireball, but it could be very useful and easier than the whole fireball idea.

I'm just throwing ideas out.

 

[NEWB]

Ehhhh..... Anyone else from the Mario world is more suited for the green shell then bowser. At least make it a bowser shell.

But this guy HAS to breath fire somehow! Giving him that is cool, but doesn't really give him what he should have. I'm not entirely for or against this. I'd have to see it in action to feel good about it.

What about the star rod? Make some adjustments to it. He had this in paper Mario.

 

[NEWB]

The star rod could just his new side taunt. It grants him super armor and it heals 20 or 30 damage, either at the end or gradually. This taunt would take awhile to resolve, and it would force projectile users to fight in close quarters. That much damage healed is to counter strong projectiles like samus laser and fast ones like fox. He can still be grabbed out of it too.

He could honestly get a few alt attacks with the star rod the same way ness does. His jabs would need adjusting since he now holds the star rod, his dtilt would have to be single hit, and his tilt and smash could use the star rod. The star rod also granted him a lightening attack and a pulsing attack that.... might work.

 

[Pin Clock]

The reason fire breath was removed is because we not only wanted to have Royal Rampage no longer be an A+B input, but because Fire Breath didn't really add anything to his game, except maybe some help edgegaurding Ganondorf. We did have Fire Breath draw into Bowser and cancelable into sideB at one point, but since people only used that to artificially extend the range of his sideB, this was eventually scrapped. Bowser's current set up is much more efficient and leaves no option useless.

The star rod could just his new side taunt. It grants him super armor and it heals 20 or 30 damage, either at the end or gradually. This taunt would take awhile to resolve, and it would force projectile users to fight in close quarters. That much damage healed is to counter strong projectiles like samus laser and fast ones like fox. He can still be grabbed out of it too.

He could honestly get a few alt attacks with the star rod the same way ness does. His jabs would need adjusting since he now holds the star rod, his dtilt would have to be single hit, and his tilt and smash could use the star rod. The star rod also granted him a lightening attack and a pulsing attack that.... might work.

The Star Rod in Smash is not the Star Rod from Paper Mario 64, but the Star Rod from Kirby's Adventure, so while it would fit the theme of Paper Mario, it would feel off (to me at least) due to that fact. In addition, that taunt idea proposed may force foes to fight in close quarters, but it wouldn't exactly benefit Bowser as the foe would simply grab Bowser out of the taunt and hurt him for whatever he healed plus more. As for those having problems against projectile users currently, charge up Bowser's fSmash when predicting a projectile, and shield after the fSmash. Bowser's fSmash and charge for it have super armor on them.

A rule of thumb for giving a grappler a projectile is that it has to lead to the foe coming closer to your grab range or aid in your quest of grabbing the foe. An example of this is Iron Tager's Spark Bolt, which clears out projectiles in its path and bounces the foe off the wall, ultimately having them land close enough to or get into a grab combo by Tager. If Bowser were to get a projectile, knocking the foe towards him would look weird, so the only way it could work and aid Bowser's game is if a projectile stunned the foe to hold them in place for Bowser to come close. This move would also need an input, meaning Bowser would have to lose a valuable option to get an option who's value is unknown.

However I did just get an idea while typing this post that might possibly work to give Bowser some type of projectile that would also aid in his grabbing quest that I will run by the team. Stay tuned.

 

[justadood]

An interesting idea I thought of for bowser was to keep his current neutral b, but make its input work so that maybe spamming b faster keeps fire going, like fox's blaster, and then holding it down charges it for one slow horizontal moving, horizontal ellipse shaped fireball like in the Mario games. Then what'd be cool is giving the side b its slash from melee, and giving it the throwing options of Bowser's current neutral b. Maybe replace his midair side B with the galactic crusher, since his midair side b doesn't do as much for it anyway. I'd also want to add a little bit of horizontal movement with his side b, maybe the distance of pm lucario's down b, but make it able to be spammed A LITTLE. What I had in mind was similar to link's current FSmash, he could do a right-clawed slash first, then left handed next time, basically mirrored, so it could be used for an approaching tool like Minus's current neutral b, and if you keep pressing it (sideB), maybe he'll start to speed up. Maybe keep armor frames during the slash, but after the initial slash you can be hit..? I mean when i think of royal rampage, i remember the dash from mario64, and that thing was terrifyingly fast, but only after he hopped in place before starting... what if spamming side B did that? if you guys don't want to put in the slash, then just make it able to tackle opponents if you miss the slash but still pass them.


also, as you said the best projectile for a grappler would be a "stun", wouldn't the "gandouken" that replaced the superscope shot work just as well?.. it has numerous hit on it and would keep an opponent hit-stun-locked long enough to even get a smash attack or down B in, if you're close enough... if it moved a little quicker, it would pass through them faster and maybe not hold them so long that it's cheap or abused, but it's utility as a projectile would also increase because of it's ability to clear spacing very quickly.

 

[NEWB]

I'm not very good at thinking about abstract projectiles. I don't even know what to think about the gandouken. I'm sure the dev teM will make something great.

 

[BCU999]

In response to Pin Clock's knock back direction dilemma, might I recommend instead of a stunning projectile that would probably feel a little weird on Bowser, maybe a projectile that knocks up and towards. I feel that if the knock back is at like an 80 degree angle towards Bowser it could set up for the galactic crusher very nicely at low percentages and his up air at higher percentages as well as look significantly more realistic than just straight knocking him back towards Bowser.

as far as the input for said move, I feel that Bowser's side b doesn't really bring much to the table at this point anyways (I could be wrong, but I haven't found many uses tbh), so I feel it might be worth considering that the Fireball be put over the side B and maybe just put the flip as a button press once Bowser grabs an opponent with his royal rampage or maybe over his regular forward or up throws (if we really want to keep Bowser-cide).

 

[Bent 00]

How about giving Bowser either the hammers and/or oval fireballs from his first appearance in Super Mario Bros.?

Skip to 01:18:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrcBh6BnOaQ

A hammer would be thrown in an arc, while a fireball would travel straight along the ground or at a low or medium height. Either projectile could knock foes closer to Bowser if they connect.

I agree with replacing Bowser's Koopa Klaw (Side B) with the projectile(s), since it seems inferior to RR/GC anyway.

Then again, I don't main Bowser, so... Just an idea!

 

[NEWB]

I'd rather not lose the bowsercide.

 

[Bent 00]

You could still Bowserside with Galaxy Crusher...

 

[NEWB]

Bowsercising with side b can actually just kill the opponent and not bowser.

 

[Bent 00]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. How exactly do you survive a Bowsercide? It's much easier for 'Dorf to survive a Ganoncide; just tap A at the blast zone.

Still, projectiles in exchange for his Koopa Klaw sounds like a good deal to me. Where else would you put them?

 

[justadood]

like i said, i'd rather have the koopa claw combine with royal rampage on the ground so that pressing it in succession or holding it down makes it do multiple koopaclaws (left claw, right claw, back and forth), in order to do the royal rampage, and then i'd make his koopaclaw in midair able to do the galactic crusher... or if you guys preffer, maybe the original "bowsericide" happens when you hold the B button down, or maybe when it's just tapped..? then the Neutral B button would be free for the fireballs, regardless of whichever kinds you use... maybe tapping B repeatedly does the VBrawl firebreath, and then just tapping it once does a small fireball, and holding it down charges the fireball so it can be bigger...

that doesn't seem like it'd be too difficult to program, or to use, and everyone wins because the moves all stay in!

 

[NEWB]

I don't like the idea of combining koopaklaw that way. Rapid koopaklaw would look really dumb. I'm thinking grounded side b will have to be removed. And that side b and gc will have to share an input in the air somehow...

 

[justadood]

ok, well how about if holding side B will make you do the MARCH from royal rampage, and when you RELEASE it it makes him grab with the koopa claw animation, but a little quicker... maybe with this, just bumbing into someone won't grab them with royal rampage, but if you let go of B on time, also we can increase the grabbox, you will grab them with the current royal rampage's grab... also, this will help control how far you go with the royal rampage by releasing early to stop, or holding it down to go further, and maybe you speed up as you continue to move in order to close spacing quicker (like in maro64), whereas the drawback will be that the faster you are moving with this royal rampage, the smaller the grabbox will be when you release B, and the quicker reaction time you will need to have to catch them in that window... OR it can start out going quicker, and slow down the longer you hold it, but increase in grab range, so that pressing it point blank grabs quickly, but trying to cross the stage makes it more dangerous to you, but easier if your opponent doesn't manage to stop you quick enough... maybe he won't have too much of a speed difference between starting and continuing, and maybe the grabbox doesn't get too noticeably bigger or smaller, but it would be nice to have some more control over this move's motion... also, if the koopa claw got it's slash from melee back, then maybe letting go of the "royal-koopa-claw-rampage" before your opponent is in the grabbox will also let you use a slash with some kill potential... i'd also like the biting ability from melee's side B to come back for if you catch someone with "royal-koopa-claw-rampage"... i am all for giving a character as much variety as possible

one more idea is the ability to turn around, using the animation bowser does in mario64 when he misses mario with his royal rampage, and tries to stop before reaching the end in order to turn around... maybe the faster you're going, the longer it takes to turn around.... this absolutely is something i find does NOT NEED to be here, but definitely COULD be in here without feeling out of place....

 

[justadood]

does that seem fair/agreeable?

 

[Turk Injaydii]

The reason fire breath was removed is because we not only wanted to have Royal Rampage no longer be an A+B input, but because Fire Breath didn't really add anything to his game, except maybe some help edgegaurding Ganondorf. We did have Fire Breath draw into Bowser and cancelable into sideB at one point, but since people only used that to artificially extend the range of his sideB, this was eventually scrapped. Bowser's current set up is much more efficient and leaves no option useless.



The Star Rod in Smash is not the Star Rod from Paper Mario 64, but the Star Rod from Kirby's Adventure, so while it would fit the theme of Paper Mario, it would feel off (to me at least) due to that fact. In addition, that taunt idea proposed may force foes to fight in close quarters, but it wouldn't exactly benefit Bowser as the foe would simply grab Bowser out of the taunt and hurt him for whatever he healed plus more. As for those having problems against projectile users currently, charge up Bowser's fSmash when predicting a projectile, and shield after the fSmash. Bowser's fSmash and charge for it have super armor on them.

A rule of thumb for giving a grappler a projectile is that it has to lead to the foe coming closer to your grab range or aid in your quest of grabbing the foe. An example of this is Iron Tager's Spark Bolt, which clears out projectiles in its path and bounces the foe off the wall, ultimately having them land close enough to or get into a grab combo by Tager. If Bowser were to get a projectile, knocking the foe towards him would look weird, so the only way it could work and aid Bowser's game is if a projectile stunned the foe to hold them in place for Bowser to come close. This move would also need an input, meaning Bowser would have to lose a valuable option to get an option who's value is unknown.

However I did just get an idea while typing this post that might possibly work to give Bowser some type of projectile that would also aid in his grabbing quest that I will run by the team. Stay tuned.

A lot of the things you say in this post sound like needless limitations you're placing on your team. Its your game, lol. You can do what you want, quit worrying about these ideas you have about "rules" for a grappler's projectile, and just give him one if it would add to the fun of playing the character. This is Brawl Minus. Where characters get moves that deal 666 damage, secret taunts that grant instance Pawnches, have the ability to pull out crates and barrels, etc. Since when do you guys worry about rules of other fighters, lol...

Bowser would greatly benefit from a projectile if you all did it right. Especially in the Ganon MU; flame choke totally negates RR, his primary approach option. That MU is ROUGH and I'm sure there are others that Bowser struggles in due to the lack of a spacing option. If Bowser had a projectile he could condition the opponent to block it as he moved in for a grab, a spacing option to deal with projectile heavy characters, perhaps a way to cover his recovery by firing a projectile toward stage ledge as he tried to get back to stage...there is a plethora of possibilities. Especially when its the Minus dev team at the wheel!

Moral to the story: Its your game. If a character could benefit from a new feature, don't let the "rules" of other fighters hold you back. Since when does Minus care about limitations that other fighters adhere to? Minus is all about Breaking Limits!

 

[NKArthur]

I think bowser doesnt really need a projectile. His specials are all very balanced and has alot of use. Also, his side b is great for getting enemys in the air, and bowsercide, thanks to its crazy speed, unlike air-Neutral B that is kinda slow. Maybe just some buffs will help him out with some MU. Buffing his UP-B might help, how about making it cancelable in the ground?

Also:

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I think bowser doesnt really need a projectile. His specials are all very balanced and has alot of use. Also, his side b is great for getting enemys in the air, and bowsercide, thanks to its crazy speed, unlike air-Neutral B that is kinda slow. Maybe just some buffs will help him out with some MU. Buffing his UP-B might help, how about making it cancelable in the ground?

Also:

I main Bowser and Marth (just haven't bothered changing my Main on the site, lol)...Ever fought a good Ganon? Flame Choke completely negates RR, making it useless. If Ganon sees you start it, he just has to Flame Choke you. That simple. Any suggestions for the MU?

 

[NKArthur]

I do play with my friend, Jordan, he does main Ganon/Falcon. I have more trouble with his Falcon than with Ganon (Bowser is just a punching bag of comboes for Falcon). I just dont use RR as much as i normally do against a Ganon. ill say that you dont approach him as much, try waiting him to approach you. Also, down-b to almost any air atack is really effective when you get it right. Next time that i play with him ill try to take notes of what you must do.
Anyways, its possible to win, so its not like a projectile is a Must Have for Bowser. Thats all i got for now.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'm sure he has at least one move that out prioritizes Flame Choke. I just need to get in the lab and find it...

That being said, I'd still love for Bowser to get a fireball. Its BOWSER for crying out loud. He literally ALWAYS blows fire in some way. Whether it be retro Mario games, 64, Mario Party, every other Smash, or Mario Kart (his castle is full of lava and fire traps!), Bowser and blowing fire go hand and hand. Its an iconic part of the character that I'd love to see incorporated in some way. I'm sure the creative folks that make up the Minus BR could come up with something that keeps him balanced and pays homage to one of his most defining traits.

 

[snidbert63]

Maybe move vanilla standard B to jab?