Bowser, King Grappler: A 4.0b feedback thread

[Turk Injaydii]

Bowser, I feel, is a very strong character. His armor and grab strings make him a very fearsome foe up close. What about him needs to change? I personally feel his RR down throw needs to have knockback growth increased so that it doesn't have guaranteed follow ups for the full life of a stock. We've labbed it out, and RR down throw --> aerial side b --> Fsmash seems to be a true combo. The knockback of RR down throw is so minute and hitstun is so high that Bowser can just wait to see which way the opponent DI's after the throw, then jump and get the side b to plant them in the ground, which is a kill confirm to Fsmash at around 80% when the opponent can't mash out in time to avoid an uncharged Fsmash.

We've labbed this out with a few players, and none have been able to DI far enough away after RR down throw to avoid the aerial side b. Additionally, none have been able to mash out of the ground plant in time to avoid the Fsmash once they get past 80%. If others can mash out of this, please educate me on your mashing techniques so I can pass it on to my players. Bowser is my main, but I don't enjoy winning a match off a RR down throw --> aerial side b --> Fsmash. Its too damaging and too easy to get. All it takes is a successful RR tech chase around 50-60%, and that seals the stock.

Again, we've labbed this and haven't found a way out. If anyone labs this and finds it escapable, please inform me and I'll pass it on to my players. =] Also, please add any other Bowser feedback you have that could help make him better for 4.0f!

 

[teapartycthulu]

RR down throw into aerial suplex into uair/fair works *way* too well at low percentages as well. You can even add a ground pound cancel mix-up into there as well.

All in all, I love Bowser. I feel he is the most improved from vBrawl to Brawl- (in a good way, not that silly Ganondorf...) But RR down throw definitely needs a fix.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I think we should just remove the KBG from DRR.

 

[ThePoisonMirage]

From what I've labbed out personally and what happened to me during the tourney. At low percents Side B can be mashed out of and Neutral B-Down Throw can be teched when you hit the ground. It takes more precise timing though. I think at our scene people don't know this. I guess Turk we could just Lab it out this Friday. I'm pretty sure that's the case for Bowser here. At higher percents I think it's actually pretty optimal considering there are many other characters that can counter and combo Bowser. Also mentioning how if your a certain distance above ground (usually At or Above his Head) He can not Grab you with Neutral B. He is not broken as I said before... He's far from it TBH.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

From what I've labbed out personally and what happened to me during the tourney. At low percents Side B can be mashed out of and Neutral B-Down Throw can be teched when you hit the ground. It takes more precise timing though. I think at our scene people don't know this. I guess Turk we could just Lab it out this Friday. I'm pretty sure that's the case for Bowser here. At higher percents I think it's actually pretty optimal considering there are many other characters that can counter and combo Bowser. Also mentioning how if your a certain distance above ground (usually At or Above his Head) He can not Grab you with Neutral B. He is not broken as I said before... He's far from it TBH.

Yeah, if it's techable then you fully deserve the punish. Multiple folks have tried to tech it, but failed thus far. Definitely agree we should lab it out during friendlies

I won't lie though, I honestly don't want it to be techable because then its not a good throw anymore. Tech and the combo is dead. I believe the best option would be for the knockback to be adjusted so that it is never a true combo, but the opponent is close enough that Bowser can get the combo if he reads the opponent's DI. Make it something Bowser has to earn. It'll reflect more player skill, and opponents of Bowser will have only themselves to blame anytime he lands the combo.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Making it techable could allow for varied follow ups, depending on how soon Bowser can act afterwards. That's what makes Dorf's flame choke so deadly when it became teachable in smash 4.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Making it techable could allow for varies follow ups, depending on how soon Bowser can act afterwards. That's what makes Dorf's flame choke so deadly when it became teachable in smash 4.

Very true. ThePoisonMirage and I will definitely lab things out this Friday and see what we find. Btw Mirage, thanks for getting on the forums. Bout time someone form our scene besides me got on here, lol.

 

[Thor]

It's been suggested multiple places that the dev team should switch RR throws with his regular grab throws. I'm not sure that's the solution Turk would want, but it's something.

I for one think Bowser is bad because he's extremely comboable, a massive target, and seems susceptible to gimping, but his punish game is obnoxious. Not because it's necessarily more damaging than a Falcon or Falco punish, but just because it seems to hit so hard and because I for once feel like an idiot while it's going on (yay I took 60% from his three moves as opposed to the 50% from 3 lasers, dthrow, dair, shine, utilt, dair [or something like that]).

As a result, I don't think nerfing him is the right direction, but I also feel that he's been built in a way that makes him seem to me very one-dimensional. I might also just be under-estimating Bowser, but he just never really impressed me [although his Bowser Bomb seems really good since it seems basically safe on shield lol].

 

[Gold_TSG]

Taking 60% from a heavyweight in three to four hits, especially in minus, is the norm. They can't combo as well as those like Falcon or Falco, so if they weren't doing that to compensate for their lack of speed, mobility, combo potential and juggle bait size and weight, they'd be completely useless.

 

[ThePoisonMirage]

OK so people I labbed things out yesterday with Bowser and it is not techable for sure, although as far as mashing out of the Side B when your stuck in the ground is possible I'm pretty sure. I just can't use two controllers at one time. Bowser personally doesn't really deserve such a nerf, it's mainly people that get mad because they don't know how to counter Bowser which is extremely easy. A grab can easily stop Bowser. Being above Bowser also is always best against him because he can't grab you from the air, people also need to learn that certain moves characters do escape His Neutral B such as Luigis Green Missile. And Turk I'm truly passionate about this game and I love talking about it and streaming it, so I had too XD.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Being above Bowser also is always best against him because he can't grab you from the air, people also need to learn that certain moves characters do escape His Neutral B such as Luigis Green Missile. And Turk I'm truly passionate about this game and I love talking about it and streaming it, so I had too XD.

He has down-b cancel, which helps him get to airborne opponents quickly. Additionally, Galactic Crusher and aerial side-b can grab in the air. I appreciate you labbing things out and agreeing that Bowser isn't OP overall; though RR dthrow opens up a very easy window for a nearly 60% punish as Thor mentioned. Just seems like it would be a combo better suited as a DI-read or something, rather than 100% guaranteed 60% and kill confirm if you land RR at like 30-50% depending on character weight and position...

However, Gold_TSG also makes a good point. Since he's so slow and comboable, Bowser may take too hard of a hit if RR dthrow was made a DI read or something comparable. Maybe it's just so many people complaining to me about Bowser that has made me believe he needed some adjusting, idk. Bowser is probably fine and my opponents are most likely just struggling to learn the MU; which is making him appear in need of nerfing. ThePoisonMirage and I work with folks of our scene to help them learn counterplay.

 

[ThePoisonMirage]

Yeah I know you can grab people from the air (which I was referring to Grounded RR not Galactic Crusher). You said on facebook that people need to get good and your exactly right. Bowser can be countered you just actually have to practice and find what works. GC is a great edgeguard tool as well. RR D-Throw is perfect the way it is right now, just because one of the worst characters got great buffs in Brawl Minus doesn't mean that certain character is truly op. Except for Pichu... That character is the most broken character in Brawl Minus for sure. Bowser's GC has a way larger grab range than Side B that's for sure and I lov edgeguarding with it. I've actually successfully done a 65-73% percent combo with Bowser. I guess ill provide them here for people to try out.

1st combo-
RR-Dthrow, Jump Side B, Fsmash (this is the BnB)

2nd combo-
RR-Dthrow, Jump Neutral B(you must be facing the opponent when you do neutral b or it won't work)

3rd combo-
D-Throw(if they don't tech roll),RR-Dthrow,Jump Side B, Fsmash

4th combo-
D-Throw(if they don't tech roll),RR-Dthrow, Jump Neutral B

5th combo-
RR-Dthrow, Down B Cancel In Air(tricky timing) Dair(do not fast fall this or it will not work,you will have it right if they hit the ground and then spring in the air instead of grounding them), Jump Side B, Fsmash

6th combo-
RR-Dthrow, Down B cancel in air(same as above) Dair(same as above), Neutral B

7th combo- Most damaging combo I've found that is not escapable
Nair(This move ends quickly, I'm sure you fast fall It though), RR-Dthrow,Down B cancel(timing tricky), Dair(same as above combos) Jump Side B, Fsmash

8th combo- Mix-up combo
Nair, D-Throw(if they don't tech roll), RR-Dthrow, Down B cancel, Dair, Jump Side B, FSmash

9th combo-
Nair, RR-Dthrow, Down B Cancel, Dair, Neutral B (then of course Mix-up with D-Throw if you want to do it after Nair)

Sorry for the long ass post. I thought I would spread some knowledge of Bowser XD.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

3rd combo-
D-Throw(if they don't tech roll),RR-Dthrow,Jump Side B, Fsmash

4th combo-
D-Throw(if they don't tech roll),RR-Dthrow, Jump Neutral B

5th combo-
RR-Dthrow, Down B Cancel In Air(tricky timing) Dair(do not fast fall this or it will not work,you will have it right if they hit the ground and then spring in the air instead of grounding them), Jump Side B, Fsmash

6th combo-
RR-Dthrow, Down B cancel in air(same as above) Dair(same as above), Neutral B

7th combo- Most damaging combo I've found that is not escapable
Nair(This move ends quickly, I'm sure you fast fall It though), RR-Dthrow,Down B cancel(timing tricky), Dair(same as above combos) Jump Side B, Fsmash

8th combo- Mix-up combo
Nair, D-Throw(if they don't tech roll), RR-Dthrow, Down B cancel, Dair, Jump Side B, FSmash

9th combo-
Nair, RR-Dthrow, Down B Cancel, Dair, Neutral B (then of course Mix-up with D-Throw if you want to do it after Nair)

Sorry for the long ass post. I thought I would spread some knowledge of Bowser XD.

Combos such as 3 and 4 are more tech chases than combos. If the opponent is hit by dthrow, he can DI away and tech-roll away to avoid the true combo. However, if he always chooses that option, Bowser can read the tech and punish by dashing forward, then starting RR. Once the opponent has been hit by dthrow--> dash-->RR a few times, they'll most likely be conditioned to DI away and tech-roll inward so they roll behind Bowser when he dashes forward. That's when Bowser can tech chase with RR immediately out of dthrow, since the opponent will roll right into the grab. It's definitely a strong mix-up/punish tool.

 

[Thor]

Taking 60% from a heavyweight in three to four hits, especially in minus, is the norm. They can't combo as well as those like Falcon or Falco, so if they weren't doing that to compensate for their lack of speed, mobility, combo potential and juggle bait size and weight, they'd be completely useless.

I more feel like an idiot because it's all grab-based. With Ganondorf, he can do 60% in 3 or 4 hits, but he's usually comboing me across the stage [usmash dair side+b dtilt uair probably does like 80%, but at least he's comboing. Bowser is like grab grab fsmash and I'm like "Oh I can't DI any of that and took 60. Yay!"]. I didn't communicate that very well, to be fair, but I feel that way because he does it all with grabs [to the point where most of his aerials seem inferior to trying to grab unless you need to fend someone off]. I suppose I'm not used to grappler style characters? [I'd argue DK and Bowser are grapplers in Smash 4 more or less, but there they do grab into multiple moves, not grab into grab into fsmash or whatever].

In any case, I do not think it's OP, I just don't think it's all that fun to play against [I usually just play Falco/Falcon/Link and Dash-dance camp or projectile camp (since that's basically the best bet for those characters) and then try to take one opening really far].

One other totally unrelated thing that's still worth mentioning somewhere: Falco's reflector outward hitbox usually sends characters too far to combo into the returning hits. This is not the case against Bowser. I have done reflector -> utilt where I hit him both directions with reflector, then work from there, sometimes doing this two or three times in a combo [since they DI the utilt away so I just reflector again or whatever].

I'm not sure if this means the dev team should increase Falco's reflector BKB or what, but only Bowser being afflicted by this [and maybe some other super fatty right at 0?] seems a balance oversight, because it definitely doesn't seem like something Falco needs [as much as I enjoy doing it].

 

[ThePoisonMirage]

Combos such as 3 and 4 are more tech chases than combos. If the opponent is hit by dthrow, he can DI away and tech-roll away to avoid the true combo. However, if he always chooses that option, Bowser can read the tech and punish by dashing forward, then starting RR. Once the opponent has been hit by dthrow--> dash-->RR a few times, they'll most likely be conditioned to DI away and tech-roll inward so they roll behind Bowser when he dashes forward. That's when Bowser can tech chase with RR immediately out of dthrow, since the opponent will roll right into the grab. It's definitely a strong mix-up/punish tool.

That's true XD. I mean to say or specify that but I was short on time. They are tech chases and also I'm not sure about even teching D-Throw because they hit the hit the ground but as soon as they do Bowser grabs them with RR so I'm not sure. I've really been studying what Bowser can do and he is completely viable.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Unfortunately, that's just how grapplers work. Look at Zangeif in SF for example. He's not the best comboer in the game, but his focus of the power of his grabs is fairly insane. Bowser is pretty hit and miss with people because he plays so differently, so it's to be expected that not everyone enjoys what he can do now. But, at the end of the day, he's still really easy to beat.

 

[Thor]

Unfortunately, that's just how grapplers work. Look at Zangeif in SF for example. He's not the best comboer in the game, but his focus of the power of his grabs is fairly insane. Bowser is pretty hit and miss with people because he plays so differently, so it's to be expected that not everyone enjoys what he can do now. But, at the end of the day, he's still really easy to beat.

Again, it doesn't upset me from a balance standpoint at all, I just feel kind of goofy losing to it with a zoner like Falco or a bait-and-punish/rushdown character like Falcon. Byproduct of feeling you should win advantageous MUs I suppose.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Just a matter of switching up how you play to adapt to it, then? I dunno.

 

[Neville]

Bowser's RR dthrow combos into everything out of a short hot and doesn't go high enough to tech on platforms. I think Bowser relies more on reads than the rest of the Minus crew so he's harder to play but his rewards of of his reads are really strong. I don't think he's really bad, but I do think plenty of his matchups are very polarizing.

 

[Momurderer]

Bowser used to be the only character I played as until a couple of horrible mirror matches... He definitely has some very rough matchups, Toon Link and Olimar come to mind right off the bat. He is a very methodical character and I agree with Longbottom that he relies heavily on reads. A lot of complaints I have and had about him are getting worked out. I noticed once my cousin started playing as him that his dair into dsmash was nearly lagless. If he hit me with dair and I was blocking I had to continue to block until his dsmash was finished because there was no way I could find to interrupt that jive but I think his dsmash is getting a longer startup time or something if I remember correctly. I really do think he is about as perfect as he can get. Once a person gets good with him and figures out his matchups he is a very imposing foe and feels like the boss he deserves to be. He is truly one of the things I love about Minus and now I think I'm going to start playing as him again. With Bowser and D3 in my repertoire I can laugh and grow fat.

 

[RetroStation]

To elaborate on the DownB -> Dair chain ThePoisonMirage posted with the note (tricky timing), I'll share some stuff I learned after playing Dusk and labbing/friendlies:

Low Cancel (roughly shorthop height):
-Nair
-(sweetspot) Fair

Mid Cancel (half of command jump, this is tricky timing)
-Uair

High Cancel (top of the command jump, before he drops the booty):
-Dair

With Dair, it's a true combo without fastfall, and you can fall slightly left or right to anticipate DI instead of going straight down. If the last hit of dair connects, it grants an untechable(?) ground bounce where, instead of SideB -> Fsmash, you can just Usmash and kill. If the last Dair hit whiffs, followup with Dsmash to rack up damage/kill.

EDIT: Bair can be a dRR followup; had it mixed up with DownB cancels for some odd reason. Added Uair followup from DownB at mid height. Confirmed you can alter Dair trajectory (though that's probably nothing new), making more consistent against DI. Also confirmed Dsmash followup if last Dair hit whiffs.

 

[teapartycthulu]

Hey, why doesn't ROB get pitfalled by side-B? I'm not exactly the most frequent player, but maybe I'm just a noob. It leads to some really cool setups with footstools and walljumps (sets up into a stage spike fair with a jump read), but it seems kind of odd.

 

[Neville]

Hey, why doesn't ROB get pitfalled by side-B? I'm not exactly the most frequent player, but maybe I'm just a noob. It leads to some really cool setups with footstools and walljumps (sets up into a stage some fair with a jump read), but it seems kind of odd.

It's not supposed to happen and it's getting fixed.