Are these characters fine? Heard nothing about them, good or bad.

Discussion in 'Characters' started by Kien, Apr 27, 2014.

  1. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Metaknight, now that he's been rebalanced.
    Lucario
    Sheik
    Lucas
    Ness
    Fox
    Squirtle
    Charizard
    Bowser, what with his tweaks.
    Pikachu
    Pit
    Mr GnW

    I'd like to hear feedback.
     
  2. Other Aether

    Other Aether Mediator

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    Metaknight's cool. His ledgeguarding ability (my favorite part about him) is a little underwhelming. Personally, I'm preferring the old build because it was unique, if broken.
    Sheik is pretty good. I don't play Zelda/Sheik as much as I used too, so I don't know.
    Lucas needs lower lag on PK Fire. It's not good enough for approach/retreat/mobility as is (it's good, but not as amazing as I'd like it to be)
    Don't know much about Ness.
    Fox is cool with his wavedashing and stuff, but he's a little underwhelming. I'd honestly prefer to see a build focused more around minus than melee, but whatever.
    Squirtle's decent, but could use some small buffs.
    Charizard is incredible. Maybe even OP. My primary Brawl- main was Pokemon Trainer, but now it's more of just Charizard. Rock Smash+Blast Burn synergy is amazing. Get a stealth rock wall and spam away from behind it. Lately, I've been teaming with my brother as Charizard+Charizard, making rock smash forts and spamming4dayz. It's so fun, awesome, and extremely difficult/painful to break.
    Bowser seems fine. I used to love him and I still do.
    Pikachu is fun, but I wish it could use PikaCopter twice per airtime. I don't know why, but it'd be cool.
    Pit seems UP, but I haven't put too much effort into learning him.
    G&W seems UP, but again, I haven't put much effort into learning him.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2014
  3. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    You know what else was fun and awesome? Cancellable Warlock Punch and the faster Mortal Draw.

    I think Brawl Minus is taking itself a bit too seriously now, taking out or nerfing the OP (but hard to land) stuff. It made Minus unique -- leave the ˝serious business, no OP moves˝ to Project M. Minus is supposed to be the "fun" mod.

    ...Yeah, still mad about the nerfs to 'Dorf, Ike, and Link.

    The only change I'd like to see made to any of the characters Kienamaru listed is a small buff to Pikachu. Being able to cancel Quick Attack into an aerial would be cool.

    Was Squirtle even in the MAX 3.3 changelog? Has he been changed at all since 1.01?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2014
  4. Other Aether

    Other Aether Mediator

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    Try to refrain from going too off-topic, but...

    I honestly have to agree that Brawl- should only nerf blatantly broken things (maybe slightly weakening NSM counter or something) instead of just nerfing anything OP.

    Although, a little note to the minus team: I play Brawl- because I love tromping around and being ridiculously OP. That's really the only reason I (or anyone) would prefer minus to other mods.. I know it's more work to balance stuff by buffing everything else, but stop the nerfs. Focus purely on buffs.

    The difference between OP and broken is this: OP means that it's too strong. It's stronger than everything else, overcentralizing things. vBrawl MK is OP. Now, broken means that it actively ruins the game. To be broken, it simply means the premise does not work. Old MK was broken in FFAs and team battles, since his entire gig was that he could KO earlier, but he really couldn't do much damage. This meant he could use other people's damage as his own, giving him the best of both worlds.
     
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  5. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  6. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Thank you. This post is very needed, and I hope all of the other devs see this.
     
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  7. Lightning

    Lightning Ikesexual

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    I'm kinda upset at the nerf to Sheik's fair.. I think it should've stayed. I don't mind the other nerfs (Actually, I think those were needed for balancing), I just think fair needs to have more knockback.. I think it's Sheik's best killing move (of course, this is from my play style).

    You are free to disagree if you want. :)
     
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  8. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    I'm glad to see that someone who mains Pokémon Trainer is liking charizard so much. I want to take that as a sign that he won't need to be touched any time soon.
     
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  9. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Well, other than the part about "the only reason I or anyone would prefer minus to other mods" I agree with Other Aether. I play/get mods that I think other people will enjoy (some competitive people I know I stick to Melee and PM and try to play Brawl with the few that like it, with the casuals I know at school it's Brawl/Brawl Minus) because I enjoy Smash in general (I have a Smash 64 emulator on my Wii and laptop when I want to play that). But I guess this is a personal thing, and most people play it because it's fun to be able to recover from practically anywhere on screen.

    MK: I sort of want dair's knockback growth powered up a little or base knockback powered up - his gimping game with it used to be absurd, now it's just okay (only slightly better than Brawl in my opinion). I want him to gimp better.

    Lucario: Since multi-hit fsmash had zero SDI, that was a nerf. The loss of stun was mainly to prevent silliness (I once did a ~150% combo at like 60% as Lucario thanks to that stun - repeatedly just barely missing force palms to force palm proper to dair tech chase to some more missed force palms to fsmash - it was ridiculous). The dtilt KOd at like 150%, but Lucario fsmash should still KO around that range if he has any real percent on him, and he's also still go utilt -> Extremespeed -> uair to KO at lowish Lucario percents when they're that high anyway. I think the changes were good.

    Sheik: Never played a good one. Only really heard positive feedback from others, and since I heard her damage-racking is silly (I know her roll is literally the best in the game, at least unless you can tell which way she rolls before she poofs), these sound like good things to do [I played a decent Sheik once, fair was really strong but so was 1.00 Lucario so I won].

    Lucas & Ness: not sure how Lucas was changed, I checked and it was just a few small buffs so I think it's fine, I know Ness's change was just no batmode and no darkness on uair - no idea what the darkness did, and batmode was whatever for me.

    Fox: He looks underwhelming when I play him, but the laser change is nice. I think if we ever get a real Melee vet (M2K, Mango, SFAT, Lucky, etc.) into the game we'll see he fits into Brawl Minus just fine.

    Squirtle: seems fine I guess. Not sure. Maybe a little less startup on aerial down+b, but that's about all I can think of.

    Charizard: Blast Burn might get nerfed [not that I want a nerf on it]. Stealth Rock + Blast Burn is hard for some to break through, though Falco, Fox, and Wolf honestly don't care.

    Bowser: Like the change to RR dthrow. Don't know too much about other stuff, but I hated trying to tech it, especially in lag (never got the timing down really). Not getting grounded is nicer in my opinion.

    Pikachu: Meteor cancel thing is meh, don't remember his other change. I don't love the meteor cancel change, but his recovery is strong so whatever.

    Pit: Didn't know he was changed. When I checked it just said fair KOs better. Good for Pit, his KO moves aren't the greatest. So fine by me.

    Game and Watch: Utilt change is good, Chef fix is nice, I wish the bucket wasn't nerfed (I always felt the point of the bucket was to KO if they put any projectiles in it, so that you fill it up w/ Chef and KO them).

    Just my thoughts. Sorry for any typos - I'm pretty much typing in lag so I might have errors I missed.
     
  10. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Errors don't matter. I'm just getting feedback so I know who the players don't want touched in any way. From what I gather.

    Charizard, Sheik, Bowser, Lucario, Lucas, and Ness are all really solid now.
     
  11. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I play minus because it's hectic and original, not just because it's "everyone is OP." PM is simply turning Brawl into Melee, which I am not all that interested in. And to put it simply, there is a difference between fun and not fun, not just OP and broken. If someone is genuinely not fun to play as or against BECAUSE they are so powerful, it's easier to bring them back down to earth than it is to bring EVERYONE ELSE up to their level, because as it is, minus serves to make their roster different than the norm, so there is much more to take into consideration when nerfs and buffs are handed out.

    As for details on those characters, I'll write something later after I mess with them, or tell you over Skype.
     
  12. Other Aether

    Other Aether Mediator

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    Well, it's hectic and original because everyone is OP, so circular reasoning. Buffing everyone is what makes Brawl- unique, so the only reason you'd play Brawl- is if you like the buffed characters.
     
  13. CaptainEllipsis

    CaptainEllipsis Graphic/Character Designer

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    Out of that list, the only two I use regularly are Pit and Ness.
    I feel like Ness needs some KO power on his PKT2 again, which should stop people from just taking the hit offstage, for an easy gimp.
    Pit is fine imo. nearly all his moves lead into combos, and it's not -hard- to ko, but it does take some time. Only suggestion for him is increasing the distance on his angled F-smash.

    I dislike Charizard right now, because rock smash > burn blast is annoying to get around, especially for characters with no projectiles.

    Although I do agree with earlier posts, that Minus is nerfing itself a little hard now, and straying from it's original OP fun.
     
  14. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    Im just gonna drop this here from the other thread since it's more where it belongs. It's more of an explanation then anything else:

    Now I personally play Brawl Minus because i love the over the top feel yes, but mainly because i love how competitive it can be. I like being able to play a competitive superfast fun smash game without having to play something like melee (includes PM). I like the pace and physics of Brawl Minus better then melee and PM. Thats why i play minus. Not just because things are OP. I don't seek out or enjoy this game because it's silly or crazy. I play it because i like it's competitive feel better
     
  15. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I'm afraid that's not how it works. It's not the OP aspect I enjoy. It's that they took what was there and changed things around to be different and interesting, like altered physics and altered movesets. I don't even consider most of the cast "OP" within it's own game because that's the way minus is. Compared to vanilla? Yeah, they're all OP, but that's not what is so appealing to me. They made brawl fun again.
     
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  16. CaptainEllipsis

    CaptainEllipsis Graphic/Character Designer

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    Oh, I forgot to add. Lucas has a few things I wouldn't mind seeing improved.
    -More landlag on dair, or a higher SDI+hitlag multiplier. (t's frustrating being caught in dair spams.)
    -raise the angle on zair a bit, so it's cancelable into more than just uair.

    Also, Pit's air side-B is completely useless; whatever you're planning on using it for, nair is probably a better option. I wouldn't mind it being -anything- else.
     
  17. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Main:
    Metaknight: I don't have too much to say, honestly. He has a lot to work with, but still feels "weak" to me somehow. I don't like to play him so I dunno.

    Lucario: I never play him cause he doesn't fit my style, and almost no one uses him, so it's hard to say.

    Sheik: Almost feels OP now, if only because of the throw cancels, due to having some strong moves that are easy to follow up with, but somewhat balances out with her weight.

    Lucas: Fairly solid, but tweaks are needed as mentioned by Ellipsis.

    Ness: Feels very solid overall.

    Fox: Hard to say, since he has an inherent issue online with having a permanent 1/4-1/2 reaction delay no matter what the condition of the lag is. Offline, he seems alright. I can't use him well enough to give more feedback.

    Squirtle: Feels pretty solid, yet annoying to me.

    Charizard: His movement is really bad for what is supposed to be a flying type. I honestly think he could benefit from a bit more mobility, even if only on the ground. He also needs a tweak to blast burn so it's not so hard to aim. As it is, I have no reason to use it because it's so inconsistent. It might as well not even be there.

    Bowser: Wrecks faces now. Love it.

    Pikachu: Mostly solid. If I had to change anything, it's that his B is too easy to lock opponents with, and needs some tweaks to make it less so.

    Pit: Don't play him, but never saw him as much of a threat either. Hard to say.

    Mr GnW: Tricky. He can be fun, and yet annoying. His Judge is still easy to spam thanks to the cancels on them, so that long delay to stop it from spamming into itself doesn't really do much to stop it.
     
  18. CaptainEllipsis

    CaptainEllipsis Graphic/Character Designer

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    One more thing with Pit, is that his recovery is pretty bad, imo worst in minus, along with Ness. apart from being an extremely easy to hit slow moving target, if he's hit or he cancels it with an aerial, using it again will almost always result in death. Having to wait 5-10 seconds for it to recharge offstage usually gets you killed as well.

    With Pit, Lucas, and Ness, I think all three could benefit from earlier meteor cancel windows, and/or buffed recoveries. After being meteored, hitting up B won't stop momentum immediately as with every other non-tether character, instead they continue soaring downwards for a few more frames, and it throws off the PKT. With Pit, it just gets him killed immediately.

    Also, I don't know how OP it'd end up being, but could Ness's PKT2 actually not stop his momentum when he hits with it? He and Pit are the only characters in minus whose recovery is so bad offstage anything (items, characters, pikmin, arrows, etc) can stop it, and there's no recovering from it. I don't main him, or use him as often anymore, so i dunno.
     
  19. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    I thought Pit's just ran on a timer - you get X seconds and if it's cancelled by anything (attack or being attacked), those Y remaining seconds are stored for use again. Good to know how it actually works. Ness's recovery isn't that terrible, but a meteor cancel buff and a distance increase would be nice. Lucas's recovery could also use the same buffs and the same buff Ness's got (versus Game and Watch, when you bucket his projectile you gimp Lucas, Ness doesn't have this issue - should this be changed?) Admittedly, Ness is a combo monster though (this morning I beat 3 level 9 bowsers with friendly fire off teamed against me on FoD as Ness - shoutouts to fair, dair, PK Fire, PK Flash, and PKT2), so I get he has a more frail recovery. Don't know as much about Lucas.

    Incidentally, I sort of play Lucario - I do seem to be the only one who uses the powerup taunt... well, ever (mainly when I'm down and like, screw this - although I did it do it to bring back what would have been a 3-stock to a JV 2-stock (then got KO'd) XD. I also did it twice versus Ellipses's Pichu to great effect, mainly because I think Lucario shuts down a lot of Pichu's options, given the predictability of rocket fair and Lucario being able to counter out of grab's way). I knew about the silly CG (I mentioned it above in my post, doing a zero-death where I barely left the ground). I also play MK some and mentioned my thoughts above (I want maybe a dair buff, and I'll mention now that I'd like the knockback on dsmash slash 2 back to being a smash that sends them behind MK, not the same direction as MK is facing, but that's really minor, as would slightly less lag on fsmash be appreciated... - currently he mainly has to work way more for uair strings, but I don't think that's a bad thing.) - I can play these characters more if people want when I get time so we can get more footage up (unless that's not a problem - I think Jomo has tons of videos of Lucario up, but I don't know of much MK footage). I've been playing a lot of Falco (I feel like he should be really good, but his combos are so tech-out-of-able and the decent amount of endlag on dair and utilt makes it harder than in Melee to pillar... I have change ideas but this isn't the place) and a little bit of some other characters (I think TL, Charizard, Ike, Ganon, Falcon, Pichu, Pikachu, and Sheik), but I can play mainly MK if needed.
     
  20. CaptainEllipsis

    CaptainEllipsis Graphic/Character Designer

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    I feel like we could use a general suggestion thread to make this easier, but a few new developements:
    -After footstooling someone, Ness can't djc from it. Footstool djc's would be pretty neat.
    -Pit's uair has literally no kb on the multi hits. I've seen sonic spring out of it, halfway through. In addition, his utaunt is basically his best killmove, but doesn't kill most until 110-ish(buff buff buff buff), and his up-B (grounded) could use a slightly larger hitbox, and less bkb; as it stands, it's only good for pillaring like once. I guess Pit actually wasn't perfect as originally stated :p.
    -I think GaW is fine as is now that I've played with him again. He has an infinite recovery, though the timing is hard. Basically spam bacon > wait > up-B, so the hitbox runs out before the bacon is gone. You get hit and another up-B! then repeat until you mess up.
     
  21. Other Aether

    Other Aether Mediator

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    I'm not a fan of Brawl- Pit, but I just found something that changed my mind. Try this out, Kien. It's a mod that gives Pit the Flame Orbitars from KI:U and gives him a much better chance of competing in Brawl. Just personally, I think this should be the official build of Pit, maybe with a few changes. I know I'm using it.
     
  22. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Pit already has good gimps, with his extremely obnoxious arrows, and he has easy damage racking with that ridiculous priority angel ring -> grab (if you're not out of range, you basically have to jump, at which point Pit can shield and do OoS options - because he can shield out of angel ring if I remember it right). He doesn't necessarily need a huge buff for KO power (and not on the taunt - that thing is slow, last I checked... maybe a bair or dsmash kbg buff?)
     
  23. Other Aether

    Other Aether Mediator

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    It really isn't a 'buff' as much of a change. I think it makes him stronger, but he plays a lot differently. Slower long range and powerful attacks with middling knockback on most of them. All of his attacks save up-b, down-b, grab, and all throws except down throw have been redone, and he's balanced around Brawl-. He just feels better, more unique and more minus-y to me. Who knows, you devs might even want to contact the creator and ask him to apply to the dev team, because it's a well done mod. I don't really like characters who rely completely on spam to win, like Pit. Try it out for yourself.
     
  24. CaptainEllipsis

    CaptainEllipsis Graphic/Character Designer

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    I can win matches with Pit, using less than 5 arrows. Normally I only use arrows as a way to force my opponents to airdodge/land themselves in a bad position anyway, but Pit can be really good without arrows. He's already a solid contender in Minus, but he has a lot of broken things in his moveset (not like the "good" minusy broken, more like they don't work well in most/any situation, for various reasons). I'm familiar with that PSA though, having played it a few times with a friend online, and it is pretty neat, but I don't think it should replace Pit completely, because:
    -People familiar with Pit already would have to relearn an entire character that hasn't changed dramatically since 1.0
    -Pit is solid enough to not need a total rework (unlike Olimar who always had a ton of issues)
    -It's -really- late to change movesets dramatically, because Max is so far progressed already.

    Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy that PSA, and If there were an option to have it as a second moveset, like Batness, I'd take that (even though that seems excessive). Or, even better, a second slot with that moveset for Dark Pit instead. Right now all he really needs is a better recovery, a uair that works, and a larger grounded hitbox on up-B (AND A UTAUNT BUFF PLZ).
     
  25. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    I already know about that. I actually have something else from the same person that he never released. And yeah, i do think that version of Pit feels amazingly fun. I've been thinking about remaking them into lightning since evidently flame wasnt the element of the orbitars true element.
     

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