4.0BC Ganondorf Feedback Thread

[Bent 00]

The updates to Global Fall, Jump, and Hop Speeds, as well as 'Dorf's Jump and Hop V(elocity?) are welcome changes. Now it feels much better to move around in the air as Ganondorf.

I appreciate that my suggestion to give the old "Energy Ball" Gandouken another chance has been taken, but I'm concerned that it has been weakened a bit too much. It definitely needed a decrease to hitbox size and damage, but this Nerfed version of the Energy Ball seems like too much of a downgrade compared to the "Dark Wave" Gandouken. The smaller hitbox has a much harder time "catching" opponents are carrying them along, and it looks too easy for caught foes to fall out of the orb. Try tossing one at an opponent standing right next to 'Dorf, and see how simple it is for him to escape (towards 'Dorf). If someone would tell me how I can modify Gandouken's properties, as well as how they were changed from 3.Q to 4.0BC, I'd appreciate it. I want to tinker with the attributes myself.

I said that if we reverted Gandouken back to 3.Q, 'Dorf should be able to reflect the projectile -- since that ability was not added, Energy Ball is a major step down against characters who can reflect (Dark Wave 'Douken could not be reflected back at 'Dorf). If we keep the Energy Ball Gandouken, 'Dorf should be able to reflect it with something... Maybe Jab, or a Neutral B windup cancel into Cape? A+B could be the input.

I see that it's safe to use Energy Ball Gandouken offstage again, thanks to the midair momentum stall and partial endlag cancel. Meanwhile, Warlock Punch is still suicidal offstage unless you land it. It's good to see at least half of 'Dorf's Neutral B is usable offstage again... but this makes me wish the whole move was safe. Did I ever suggest that we simply make AERIAL Warlock Punch have the same midair "stall" that Gandouken has, at the price of reducing the damage from 666% to 66% or even vBrawl's 32%? That would make the move non-suicidal offstage, at least, and it would still KO except at low percents. Personally, I'm thinking that both WP and 'Douken should have a bit of "pop-up" and "momentum stall" similar to the way Ryu's aerial Hadouken pops him up and stalls him in Smash 4. The current amount of momentum stall on 'Douken is much better than it was in 4.0b, but it feels... floaty. Like Ganondorf just threw a punch while sinking in some water. I'd prefer to have the momentum stall work together with the pop-up to emphasize the power of the punch, while disregarding gravity. Sticky Friction!

I'm glad we're experimenting with Ganondorf's Neutral B, but it still needs some major changes to be truly useful. I plan on making some minor tweaks of my own later, if anyone is interested. I'll discuss those over in the Custom Mods section when they're ready.

Given that we have permission to use BronzeGreekGod's Project Ganondorf in whole or in part, I think it would be a shame to pass up that opportunity. Who wouldn't want some sword moves for 'Dorf in Minus?

Please feel free to post your feedback on the King of Evil below!

PSA: This thread is for discussion of the official 4.oBC Ganondorf. You can talk about what you do or do not like about him, but keep in mind that he is most likely not going to be changed much... So please try to keep your feedback civil and your suggestions grounded, without getting too carried away.

 

[Bent 00]

No feedback yet? That's unusual. I know I've seen several people on YouTube, Reddit, Discord, etc. say that they miss the "Dark Wave" Gandouken already. Sadly, they're judging it against an Energy Ball Gandouken that is in an over-Nerfed state...

Anyhow, I took some snapshots to show just how over-Nerfed the hitbox size is now. Have a look:


Quoted from the above-linked Imgur album...

"As you can see here, the Gandouken's hitbox is only the size of the orb inside, which is usually masked by the massive corona of flame surrounding it. If possible, I think the corona should be shrunk and the hitbox on the orb should be increased to around 1.5x its 4.0BC size, or halfway between its 3.Q size and its 4.0BC size."

"IIRC, a 4.0BC Gandouken can inflict up to around 26% damage. Unfortunately, the reduced hitbox size has made it harder for the Energy Ball to "catch" opponents, and foes caught early on can easily slip out of the projectile's repeating hitboxes (towards Ganondorf)."

What do you all think? Is the 4.0BC Energy Ball Gandouken hitbox too small? Try it out for yourself and let me know.

I wonder how I might give Ganondorf the ability to reflect projectiles. Jab, or a A+B Cape Cancel on Neutral B (excluding WP endlag)...

 

[Azjerban]

Hey-o!

Personally, I missed the old Dark Wave - so I learned me some Project Smash Attacks, and put it back in.
As a secret move, hidden in the grounded Neutral B. Old Manondorf still has his Energy Ball and his Punch of Death.
Preliminary testing seems to work just fine - should I share my mod?
Is this too many options for Good Old Ganon?

(is this the right place to make this post?)

 

[Thor]

IIRC reflection is hard if they don't already have a reflector.

I liked Dark Wave, but energy ball is cool too.

Giving Warlock Punch different aerial and grounded properties would be awesome... but I do understand if the dev team just leaves things as are
[;-;]

 

[Dr.]

Pretty good feedback on this thread, I particularlly agree that the projectile should be changed in some way with a more accurate gfx for the hitbox.
I also think the hadouken should be fired from his left hand.
I hope this is being worked on

 

[Bent 00]

Pretty good feedback on this thread, I particularlly agree that the projectile should be changed in some way with a more accurate gfx for the hitbox.
I also think the hadouken should be fired from his left hand.
I hope this is being worked on

Huh, so it is possible for the Gandouken to be fired from 'Dorf's left hand. I thought it couldn't be done, neat.

Where is that version of the Gandouken (in the video you linked) from? I haven't seen it before. I'd like to try it out!

I wonder if there's a way to remove the "Item Spawn" / "Item Pickup" GFX and SFX.

 

[Thor]

Random: I appreciate not only that SH AC dair is much easier, but that it actually works going up the small slopes on Pokémon Stadium [you can go from the center to either slope and still get a SH AC dair].

While Ganonorf has already received quite a bit of effort, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be possible to return the dark wave as a taunt-switch? I know there might be some who fear Minus would be taunt-switch: the game [Old Bat Mode Ness, Falco lasers, other stuff], but it'd allow Ganondorf players the best of both worlds - characters with reflectors could be more threatened by Dark Wave usually [Fox shine stalling offstage to reflect the energy ball is likely annoying], but the energy ball still has uses in those matchups for those who want to use it, as well as in matchups without reflectors.

Allowing access to the Dark Wave is also a safe bet for anyone who wants to use items in case Franklin Badges show up, and the speed of Dark Wave is probably more useful in teams.

 

[Dr.]

Well, I modified it a little more and this is the result for anyone to try:
CustomGandouken.rar

Simply replace those files and it should work
any questions or feedback please feel free to contribute

changelist from minus:
- orb spawns near Dorf's left hand instead of his right
- gfx around the orb represent a more accurate hitbox
- Dorf is now able to fire while holding an item
- Dorf is able to keep the item he's currently holding while firing
- check to see if B-button is pressed 2 frames earlier (69->67)
- orb might've been moved slightly up compared to official minus

PS: I'm trying to break the limits even more so any suggestion is welcomed (no matter how unreal or farfetched it might seem to be)

 

[Bent 00]

Great work, Dr.!

Anyone who tries out Doc's Gandouken, let us know if you think the orb's hitbox and GFX are big enough.

I suggested that the default 4.0BC Gandouken is too small, because foes with low damage can slip out of it easily (towards Ganondorf), and that the hitbox and GFX of the orb should be increased to ~1.5x their current size, or around halfway between their 4.0BC size and their 3.Q size.

Dr.'s Gandouken had the size of the "flame corona" reduced, but the orb's hitbox is the same as it was in 4.0BC, so opponents with low damage should still be able to escape it easily.

Another issue is that the orb can miss opponents standing right beside 'Dorf, due to the new spawn location. Dr. plans to fix this by adding a hitbox or windbox that pushes such close foes into the Gandouken, but I don't know it that made it into the first version he just posted.

 

[Bent 00]

Stumbled across this while researching Gandouken...


It made me want to ask: Is everyone happy with the slow, combo-happy Gandouken we have now?

Or would you like to try a faster, more direct one, like the one in the video?

Maybe you could even have both...

---

Cross-posting this bit here, which is mostly "Gandouken Pros and Cons: Energy Ball VS Dark Wave", since it could be relevant to the discussion:

Ganondorf is just straight up bad. He lacks any tools to compete in neutral, can only punish with 1 hit at a time, and is so slow without any way to get in. I honestly think he was better when he had the 4.0B Gandouken. He had a reliable way of edgeguarding.

I agree with you on everything except Dark Wave being better than Energy Ball (overall).

Energy Ball Pros:
It's more dangerous to get caught by. IIRC, Energy Ball does 8-48% damage.
Landing Energy Ball allows leads into easy (and deadly) follow-ups.
Its repeating hitboxes stay out longer than Dark Wave's hitboxes do.
It cannot be Spot-Dodged or Shielded.
It can be used offstage without suiciding.
It sticks to walls.
It's a GIANT FLAMING SUN OF DEATH
It takes up less space in PSA.
'Dorf can catch up to a thrown Energy Ball and run along with it, using it as a shield.
Energy Ball encourages foes to Jump over it, into a place where 'Dorf likes his foes to be: in the air in front of or above him.
Energy Ball introduces a stage hazard very briefly, which can be used to pressure and manipulate foes. More interesting gameplay.

Energy Ball Cons:
It can be reflected. Energy Ball against characters who can reflect is generally a bad idea.
It's slower then Dark Wave, making it easier to avoid.
It is easy for a low-damage foe to escape from, because the hitbox size was over-Nerfed (IMO).
It doesn't cover as much horizontal distance at once as Dark Wave does.
Stronger enemy projectiles will plow right through Energy Ball without stopping.
It's just a max-charge Super Scope shot, no fancy PSA here. But it works!
Using it will destroy any item in 'Dorf's hand. This will be fixed next version.

Dark Wave Pros:
It can not be reflected back against 'Dorf; Dark Wave flips on his Y axis, and 'Dorf flips around with it.
It can KO foes with high damage by itself (no follow-up necessary).
It deals all of its damage at once. No escaping with partial damage.
It can go through walls.
Stronger enemy projectiles tend to clang with Dark Wave rather than go through it.
Some say it is better at edge-guarding than Energy Ball is -- but I think they're about even in that department.

Dark Wave Cons:
It does less damage: 16% on ranged hitboxes and 32% on fist hitboxes, IIRC.
It deals a single hit with modest knockback and KBG. Energy Ball's follow-ups are much better.
It is easier to dodge than Energy Ball. Neither can be aimed, but 'Dorf can interact with Energy Ball. Dark Wave is "Fire and Forget".
Using it offstage is suicidal.
It does not line up with 'Dorf's arm properly, most noticeably when used offstage.
It looks like a wave of Grape Soda to some.
It takes up more space in PSA.
Dark Wave doesn't have interesting counterplay. You just avoid it or get hit in a second.

The main things 'Dorf needs (IMO) are more speed and a revamped Neutral B that is more useful. Energy Ball Gandouken is good, while the other half of the move is terrible (I know that's not changing officially, but it's true). Some are saying that 'Dorf needs more combo-oriented moves. I could see a "Tap/Hold" setup introduced for Neutral-Air (where Tap = fast combo move and Hold = Three-Kick on-hit combo ender), but other than that... Strong, single hits are just 'Dorf's thing. He really should have a reflector, a float, and a sword mode too, but those are more things that will probably never happen in official Minus. Hmm, perhaps his Forward-Throw could be made less powerful, and more of a combo move...? I think I'd probably like it if the angle it sends foes at would be a more consistent "straight ahead" angle, similar to Forward-Tilt ("Sparta Kick") but weaker.

 

[Kaleb Sanders]

Please add taunt switch between 4.0b Ganondorf and 3.Q Ganondorf, that would make everything amazing. Please.

 

[ESC Artiste]

Okay, so this is a bit of an odd find, mainly because it's something that-at first-had similar use to Fox's Shine.

Ganondorf's Wizard Kick has a property to where if you're quick enough, you can initiate the move without grounding your opponent. What I found in Practice Mode was that this move has the possibility of being an infinite combo (explained below), as it produces enough knockback and has just the right amount of end lag for Ganondorf to move slightly forward and initiate it again.

Dark Push: [魔王の地震波 -> Maō no Jishinha]
(Tap Joystick Towards Opponent)->(Y)->(Immediate Down-B). From my judgement, 9-12 frames to execute all. Does 10% damage.
You know you're successful if Ganondorf doesn't have his voice clip during the move, and instead will show him immediately hitting the ground with his palm whilst creating a shockwave. To be frank-it looks genuinely badass. This can be done again if you move forward slightly while reading the DI to infinitely repeat the combo. I'll say it again-it looks badass. This also has applications in building quite a bit of damage while your opponent is in the ground. Unfortunately, I can't record it because I have a sh*tty computer, so if anyone of y'all could help me in finding it for yourselves and showing the footage, that would be much appreciated.

The thing is that in actual battles (LV. 9), the Dark Push is near impossible to perform the infinite because of the opponent's DI, and thus the infinite (or even a double), cannot be performed. It saddened me, because the move looks like Ganondorf is trying to Shinra Tensei the stage, and because the move could be infinited in Practice Mode, I was hoping it could do the same-if not, at least multi-combo until a certain percent. Not to mention, when an opponent is in the ground, I can only execute the Dark Push about once or twice to rack up damage, instead of pummling my opponent to oblivion as I would expect Ganondorf-the Great King of Evil and Disrespect-would do.

Basically, I want to have Ganondorf be able to multi combo the Dark Push about 3-4 times to just disrespect opponents, and even more if they're in the ground. This, obviously, would require editing of Ganondorf's Wizard's Kick, with I don't know if the Dev's are willing to do so. If possible, I would like for it to be an near-infinite on the grounds that it's tech skill is difficult to perform consistently, and it's quite hard to pin your opponent down in such a fast paced game as Brawl-. I mean, trying to execute something over an over again in the span of about ten frames with the button layout of a Gamecube controller? Jesus, now I know how Westballz feels. x_x

But that's just me. If you guys are able to perform it like I explained, what would you think of it?

Addendum: Yes, I made a Japanese name of the Dark Push. Don't judge me.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Doesnt sound much like an infinite, since Dorf has always had the shockwave on landing. Not to mention, it only hits opponents on the ground, so that means it's very much techable, so any opponent with tech skill will be able to roll away from it, if not DI away as mentioned.

I don't think it's necessary for an oddity like the shockwave to be given more emphasis on use than it already has, since it's more of a safety measure against someone who shields the kick, but for whatever reason drops it to get hit by the quake. They'd be better off just giving him an attack where he punches the ground ALA Akuma and quakes the whole stage to pop people up for minor damage, an effect that used to be on his utilt (can't remember if they removed that or not).

Also, choo choo.

 

[ESC Artiste]

Ganon's U-tilt does still do that, and while it's interesting in Practice where infinites are possible, it's not very effective mid battle. I like that suggestion where instead of landing on the ground as Ganon would normally do for his Wizard Kick, he would punch it Akuma style. However, instead of popping up, why not allow for a brief period of paralysis around the shockwave-presumably a bigger radius-to stun opponents and punish accordingly. Of course, this would mean that the frames on the Wizard Kick where the opponent doesn't become grounded would become stun frames; in all honesty, that's only a minor change towards a move where it could be beneficial. Sound good, and would the devs allow it?

 

[AGentleStar]

Ganondorf's Wizard Kick has a property to where if you're quick enough, you can initiate the move without grounding your opponent. What I found in Practice Mode was that this move has the possibility of being an infinite combo (explained below), as it produces enough knockback and has just the right amount of end lag for Ganondorf to move slightly forward and initiate it again.

Yeah, I've done that before. It's very quick and allows for a Nair or Fair followup. Problem is it's difficult to set up due to you having to be at very close range with your opponent.

 

[ESC Artiste]

Yeah, I've done that before. It's very quick and allows for a Nair or Fair followup. Problem is it's difficult to set up due to you having to be at very close range with your opponent.

So...wider hitstun radius on the Wizard Kick landing?

 

[ESC Artiste]

The updates to Global Fall, Jump, and Hop Speeds, as well as 'Dorf's Jump and Hop V(elocity?) are welcome changes. Now it feels much better to move around in the air as Ganondorf.

I appreciate that my suggestion to give the old "Energy Ball" Gandouken another chance has been taken, but I'm concerned that it has been weakened a bit too much. It definitely needed a decrease to hitbox size and damage, but this Nerfed version of the Energy Ball seems like too much of a downgrade compared to the "Dark Wave" Gandouken. The smaller hitbox has a much harder time "catching" opponents are carrying them along, and it looks too easy for caught foes to fall out of the orb. Try tossing one at an opponent standing right next to 'Dorf, and see how simple it is for him to escape (towards 'Dorf). If someone would tell me how I can modify Gandouken's properties, as well as how they were changed from 3.Q to 4.0BC, I'd appreciate it. I want to tinker with the attributes myself.

I said that if we reverted Gandouken back to 3.Q, 'Dorf should be able to reflect the projectile -- since that ability was not added, Energy Ball is a major step down against characters who can reflect (Dark Wave 'Douken could not be reflected back at 'Dorf). If we keep the Energy Ball Gandouken, 'Dorf should be able to reflect it with something... Maybe Jab, or a Neutral B windup cancel into Cape? A+B could be the input.

I see that it's safe to use Energy Ball Gandouken offstage again, thanks to the midair momentum stall and partial endlag cancel. Meanwhile, Warlock Punch is still suicidal offstage unless you land it. It's good to see at least half of 'Dorf's Neutral B is usable offstage again... but this makes me wish the whole move was safe. Did I ever suggest that we simply make AERIAL Warlock Punch have the same midair "stall" that Gandouken has, at the price of reducing the damage from 666% to 66% or even vBrawl's 32%? That would make the move non-suicidal offstage, at least, and it would still KO except at low percents. Personally, I'm thinking that both WP and 'Douken should have a bit of "pop-up" and "momentum stall" similar to the way Ryu's aerial Hadouken pops him up and stalls him in Smash 4. The current amount of momentum stall on 'Douken is much better than it was in 4.0b, but it feels... floaty. Like Ganondorf just threw a punch while sinking in some water. I'd prefer to have the momentum stall work together with the pop-up to emphasize the power of the punch, while disregarding gravity. Sticky Friction!

I'm glad we're experimenting with Ganondorf's Neutral B, but it still needs some major changes to be truly useful. I plan on making some minor tweaks of my own later, if anyone is interested. I'll discuss those over in the Custom Mods section when they're ready.

Given that we have permission to use BronzeGreekGod's Project Ganondorf in whole or in part, I think it would be a shame to pass up that opportunity. Who wouldn't want some sword moves for 'Dorf in Minus?

Please feel free to post your feedback on the King of Evil below!

PSA: This thread is for discussion of the official 4.oBC Ganondorf. You can talk about what you do or do not like about him, but keep in mind that he is most likely not going to be changed much... So please try to keep your feedback civil and your suggestions grounded, without getting too carried away.

I loved the Dark Wave. Tbh, it was fun to see that.

A suggestion for the Item Reflection. Why not use Ganon's Side Tilt. It doesn't need much, if any, modifications to make it a reflection attack. Not to mention the move itself covers quite a good frontal hitbox.

For offstage material, I believe that we should give the Warlock Punch mid-air stalling properties once the hitboxes come out. The move is meant to be a "Holy sh*t, I need to dodge this or else I'm dead" move, so making only minor changes to have it work offstage as a 50/50 would make it a hell of a lot more fun to play as, and the mini-heart attacks would increase tenfold.

I would definitely love a sword mod, though it would erase Ganon's foolproof tactic of kicking the literal sh*t out of opponents (fear his boots). If anything, make it so that Ganon could switch from a physical moveset to a sword moveset (vanilla Zelda/Shiek's Down-B come's to mind).

All hail the Great King of Evil (and Disrespect)!!

 

[Pin Clock]

The move is meant to be a "Holy sh*t, I need to dodge this or else I'm dead" move, so making only minor changes to have it work offstage as a 50/50 would make it a hell of a lot more fun to play as, and the mini-heart attacks would increase tenfold.

The move is meant to be a "HOLY SHIT HE ACTUALLY HIT WITH THAT! THE HARD READS!" move. Ganondorf has an on-hit cancel in the air with this move to reward pulling off such a stunt in a way that doesn't encourage Ganons to basically get themselves gimped in an obsession for style points when even with mid-air stall properties every other aerial option is still a million times better.

 

[ESC Artiste]

The move is meant to be a "HOLY SHIT HE ACTUALLY HIT WITH THAT! THE HARD READS!" move. Ganondorf has an on-hit cancel in the air with this move to reward pulling off such a stunt in a way that doesn't encourage Ganons to basically get themselves gimped in an obsession for style points when even with mid-air stall properties every other aerial option is still a million times better.

I agree that Ganondorf's other options are a million times better, and am happy upon reading that he has a on-hit cancel in the air. However, the reason for the mid-air stalling properties is just to aid him in case things go wrong. The Warlock Punch is not ideal in many situations, and as we've both exclaimed, it's main purpose is for both the hype and fear that are injected into players if they either get hit or are frames away from the hitbox (it's f*cking scary).

 

[Pin Clock]

I agree that Ganondorf's other options are a million times better, and am happy upon reading that he has a on-hit cancel in the air. However, the reason for the mid-air stalling properties is just to aid him in case things go wrong. The Warlock Punch is not ideal in many situations, and as we've both exclaimed, it's main purpose is for both the hype and fear that are injected into players if they either get hit or are frames away from the hitbox (it's f*cking scary).

The Warlock Punch is not supposed to be used in the air unless you are going for the hardest of reads. That's like saying you shouldn't go into Special Fall if you UpB in the wrong direction. If you are jumping off stage using a move that kills instantly every time it hits, you had better be willing to accept the risks and prepare for the consequences of missing.

 

[Gold_TSG]

CHOO CHOO

 

[Thor]

The Warlock Punch is not supposed to be used in the air unless you are going for the hardest of reads. That's like saying you shouldn't go into Special Fall if you UpB in the wrong direction. If you are jumping off stage using a move that kills instantly every time it hits, you had better be willing to accept the risks and prepare for the consequences of missing.

This is why I do it from the Yoshi's Island center platform and walljump back from the Abyss :^)

 

[ESC Artiste]

This is why I do it from the Yoshi's Island center platform and walljump back from the Abyss :^)

THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE.