BRAWL MINUS DEV STREAM! SUNDAY 8PM EST/5PM PST

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AeroIncarnated

The Only Hero
I'm probably 420 years old at this point. The only time I sleep is in my grave.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I feel like I'm the oldest on this forum.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
i am mentally older than thirteen (i hope). also note how amazing i am for holding down shift while using caps lock.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
The following is a question about the Minus developers' design decision regarding offstage Warlock Punch being 100% suicidal on whiff.

It is not encouraging further discussion of a tweak to change this. It is not meant to cause further heated debate.

It's a simple question about an official design choice in Minus.

IIRC, none of you main Ganondorf. Gold_TSG does, but he's not a developer.

Given this, why do you feel so strongly about keeping Warlock Punch as-is? Not counting Gandouken, it's functionally the same move that it has been in every other Smash (except 64, and it was Buffed with armor in Smash 4). Minus was its one chance to be different offstage, and the majority of other characters' Neutral Specials were Buffed significantly.

I'm not asking for your reasons why you won't change it, you've posted those more than enough.

I'm asking why you're so adamant about it. You've said you discussed it in the Back Room -- how did those discussions go? It's apparent that you have a very strong stance against changing Warlock Punch, but if none of you main Ganondorf, then I'm curious to know how your position became so firmly rooted.


I posted this here because it's a question (not a discussion) about the official stance on Warlock Punch, so it doesn't belong in the Custom Warlock Punch thread.

Warlock Punch was discussed on the stream, so this is on-topic.

Something something I think you got an infraction anyway.

Something tells me there's a belief that power > actual utility because once in a blue moon is still too much for an OHKO [to them, not me]. They intended it to serve zero functions [essentially, removing his neutral B would not change the character, since gandouken is too slow to fire except as a ridiculously bad edgeguard], and so when it accidentally had the potential to be used in a [still obscenely useless] non-suicidal manner [that is, when your opponent isn't able to move wherever at will if they aren't committed to an attack's lag], they said "too much" and removed it.

Also something something risk/reward vs risk/reward/reliability/zillions of other Rs, where since reward is maxed they feel evaluating other Rs or other letters [usability for U or whatever] doesn't matter.

My guess as to what they think.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
You mention me being a main, but not a developer. How does that make my opinion matter any less? I was part of the BR at one time as one of the main testers of the mod, and even then, it was discussed with a ganondorf main as to why it shouldn't be included. I imagine none of this has changed since I left, and I made it blatant on Skype what the situation was. I find it kinda disrespectful that you keep going on with this and making me feel like the time I spent debating with you over it personally in a civil manner was a complete waste of my time.

You claim the team is adamant about not changing it, but the same could be said about how much you keep pushing for it. What is the real reason you want this in the official release? Given that the team has said no, what exactly drives you to push this hard instead of keeping it in your own build and letting the curious seek it out for themselves?
 

Glyph

Moderator
Props to Bent for pulling the plug before I got here.

Only thing I want to say is that just because you main a character and play a lot of them doesn't make your opinion the authority unless you have results to back it up.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Honestly, if it's mentioned even one more time outside of its proper topic, I'LL lock this thread.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
Hey guys I can beat my roommate in a Pichu ditto, he should definitely be able to warlock punch offstage.
 

Glyph

Moderator
Taking jabs at them at this point isn't much better than pushing for its actual inclusion, lets all just let this one die.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
My bad, posted at the same time as Gold there. I hope that wasn't interpreted as a jab.

Was interpreted as a neutral B.

Also your argument is simply another ridiculously ineffective strawman. You can try to peg the argument as something else all you want, but that doesn't mean you somehow make a counterargument when all do you is mock something.

That said, it's not up for further discussion, so it really doesn't mean much... I think Bent was curious as to why the devs think Ganondorf should have an intentionally useless move, outside of I guess maybe one MU [Bowser], but at this point it's neither here nor there.
 

Glyph

Moderator
You're right, it's neither here nor there so it can go ahead and be dropped. Please do not try to force it's discussion again under the guise of a different subject.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
For another year it is lol. That or untill the devs decide to make it not a mostly useless move, except serving as the strongest attack in the game.

Smash 4 gave it armor but we did give it the gandouken. Which is gonna be pretty fun to mess around with.
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
The punch portion of warlock punch will never be a "good" move from a competitive perspective as it doing 666% damage is part of Minus's identity and that makes it impossible to be a competitive move. There is nothing anyone can do or say to change that. If you want a competitive neutral special use the hadouken which isn't safe in the air for what I believe are obvious reasons. So if you want usability things related to the hadouken cool, but the punch isn't changing.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
The punch portion of warlock punch will never be a "good" move from a competitive perspective as it doing 666% damage is part of Minus's identity and that makes it impossible to be a competitive move. There is nothing anyone can do or say to change that.
I get that it's a "Minus Staple", but it could easily be put on a toggle (Side Taunt) which switches between the OHKO and a more useful form of the move. IMO, the OHKO Punch should be 'Dorf's Secret Taunt. This setup works well for Falcon.

Just saying it could be done, and that it's a compromise that should make both sides happy.

But that's Custom territory, so back to the Custom WP thread I go...
 

Mawootad

Minus Backroom
I get that it's a "Minus Staple", but it could easily be put on a toggle (Side Taunt) which switches between the OHKO and a more useful form of the move. IMO, the OHKO Punch should be 'Dorf's Secret Taunt. This setup works well for Falcon.

Just saying it could be done, and that it's a compromise that should make both sides happy.

But that's Custom territory, so back to the Custom WP thread I go...
Yeah, it's a good idea, but the Warlock Punch OHKO is above "Minus Staple", it's one something that defines what Minus is and thus not something that cannot be changed without fundamentally weakening the identity of the mod. So even if someone comes up with a Warlock Punch that's just all around admittedly better than a slow, unsafe OHKO we still wouldn't change things (and in case anyone is wondering, that's basically the only gameplay related thing that's not up for debate).
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
The punch portion of warlock punch will never be a "good" move from a competitive perspective as it doing 666% damage is part of Minus's identity and that makes it impossible to be a competitive move. There is nothing anyone can do or say to change that. If you want a competitive neutral special use the hadouken which isn't safe in the air for what I believe are obvious reasons. So if you want usability things related to the hadouken cool, but the punch isn't changing.

The punch could be a "good" move if this game had enough shieldstun to ever make shieldbreaks remotely possible (although I'm sure it's getting patched, I was working on ways to force shieldbreaks with Pikachu, since fsmash could single-handedly widdle away about 75% of a shield or more - it was tricky but I managed to force one or two and land full-power skull bash). But Ganondorf lacks the moves to force a shieldbreak with any semblance of reliability (no autocancel on dair is really what makes this so hard as far as I know, unless I just need to mess with nair more). Like, if he had some way to make someone at least fear a shieldbreaking move [one that did ~50% of a shield's health while not being terribly slow - maybe fsmash does this, but it seems not to...], I'd be ok with it, but since he can't even do that AND the punch suicides offstage, I wasn't happy, which is why I wanted the no suiciding that the team hates.

The hadouken sucks. Anyone with a projectile that stuns can easily punish the startup on reaction (like you'll basically never pull it off vs Samus), and those without a projectile are almost always fast enough to close the gap [expect maybe Bowser crossFD, and even he can get close and RR through it]. Some have a projectile and a reflector which makes it even worse (as Fox/Wolf stand just outside punch range and hold down+B, they either fire the punch and you jump out and punish endlag or get the projectile to the face - and keep in mind these two can side+b from halfway across stage on reaction to do this with good spacing).

It's at best a highly situational edgeguarding tool that still has massive startup and can be avoided by solid recoveries easily (and probably the bad ones too, as I don't usually have issues getting around it with the characters I use with more lackluster recovery). It's probably somewhat useful vs Bowser and on stages with walls [repeatedly fire it into a wall while hugging the wall to be hard to hit by characters without disjoints (though still vulnerable)], but that's about it.

That's part of why I liked a twist on the taunt suggestion - default is the punch we know, but the taunt mode is only ever the projectile with less startup (normal endlag) - still slow, but not slow enough to completely suck. And with that idea already shot down in the hearts of the dev team, back to the customs thread...
 
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