Zelda Dair reaching beaneath stage when she is above it.

[Turk Injaydii]

Hey guys, had a suggestion for balance. Zelda is great, but her dair's ability to travel through the the stage and hit opponents seems a bit much. Could it adjusted to not travel through stages? She doesn't get to hit folks like this often because many stages dont let players pass through their base. But it allows Zelda to completely prevent recovery options on stages like Kongo Jungle and Rumble Falls in a way that no one else can. Try to recovery through the center stage, and Zelda can just dair you.

 

[Bent 00]

That's Zelda functioning as intended. If she gets you offstage, you're probably going to lose a stock.

So don't let that happen. Stay onstage, approach from an angle, and keep close to Zelda. She's really fragile.

Learn where her ranged hitboxes appear, and how to shield them.

 

[Mario3785]

At what point in a match would recovering from the middle benefit you?

 

[Turk Injaydii]

If she gets you offstage, you're probably going to lose a stock.

So don't let that happen.

I appreciate the MU help, I'll be sure to pass it on to other players. I know the MU though, just addressing a concern brought up by a large player base. I held a bracket of 30 folks at a local last night, and it was a unanimous opinion that its cheesy and silly for a character to have the option to safely reach beneath stage while on top of the stage; silly and cheesy are both traits that don't mix well with competitive play and its players.

At what point in a match would recovering from the middle benefit you?

The same way any recovery option would benefit you. As a mix up. If you've been recovering high all match, recover low to change it up. Likewise, if you've been recovering from the side on a stage that allows you to pass up and through it, catch the opponent off guard by sharking through the platform.

 

[Mario3785]

The same way any recovery option would benefit you. As a mix up. If you've been recovering high all match, recover low to change it up. Likewise, if you've been recovering from the side on a stage that allows you to pass up and through it, catch the opponent off guard by sharking through the platform.

The only characters that could recover to the middle of Rumble Falls have fast recoveries, like Mario, Marth, Sonic, etc. So I don't see how it's TOO much of a problem.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

So I don't see how it's TOO much of a problem.

It's problem because its an option that allows you to hit and get kills beneath stage while above it and completely safe from harm. That may not seem like much to a casual player, but that's a big deal in competitive play. Which is why everyone who played last night disagreed with its presence.

If something is unbalanced but doesn't occur often, that's not an excuse to leave it in. Peach's infinite in Smash 4 was very hard to do, only worked on certain characters, and only at very low percents...but it was still patched out. If its unbalanced, the game only benefits from its removal.

 

[Bent 00]

I appreciate the MU help, I'll be sure to pass it on to other players. I know the MU though, just addressing a concern brought up by a large player base. I held a bracket of 30 folks at a local last night [...]

Please don't take this the wrong way -- but I wouldn't put too much value on the purported opinions of a bunch of players unknown to us, who don't even post on these forums. No offense, but the two things I recall your group complaining about -- this and Meteor Throws (especially the latter)-- make me question their skill level. Back when I had two groups I frequently played Minus with, they complained about a lot of stuff that is easily dealt with if one would just learn how. I told them that they could voice their complaints on this forum, but they couldn't be bothered. Scrubs whine about seemingly OP stuff and hope the devs patch it out, while truly competitive players will hit the lab, train, and figure out how to beat said "OP" stuff.

[...] and it was a unanimous opinion that its cheesy and silly for a character to have the option to safely reach beneath stage while on top of the stage; silly and cheesy are both traits that don't mix well with competitive play and its players.

Ranged hitboxes are Zelda's gimmick, though. She's designed to be excellent at range, and weak in close-quarters. If you take away Zelda's ranged hitboxes, you remove her biggest "Minus" feature. Besides, AFAIK, there's no way to make her ranged hitboxes "stop" if they hit a solid object (like the stage); they can only be coded to appear at specific points relative to Zelda (again, AFAIK).

Seriously, if your friends will just learn how to approach Zelda from an angle, and learn how to avoid/shield her ranged hitboxes, they'll have a much easier time against her. Did you know that this community voted Zelda as only "C+" Tier recently? That's got to tell you something.

I feel your pain about all the exceedingly "silly" and "cheesy" stuff in Minus. I don't think either of those terms describe Zelda... but they do apply to several other things. Unfortunately, those aspects are loved by the devs, and Minus is made for them first. So, if you dislike some of the silly/cheesy stuff, all you can do is learn how to replace it with custom content yourself. I think "Competitive Play" is still somewhat important to the Minus Team, but not important enough for them to remove silly or cheesy elements that they like.

 

[Thor]

If your competitive meta involves Rumble Falls and Kongo Jungle, I'm curious how Zelda is ending up there and successfully edgeguarding there. There's almost no reason to ever end up under Rumble Falls except by choice, and players should be aware she has that option [Marth and Falcon can probably space dairs to stomp through the floor too, I know that works in Melee on Kongo Jungle, so it's not just her]. As for Kongo Jungle, it's a litte easier to end up slightly underneath the stage, but... Zelda's not very fast, and her setting up that hitbox should be kind of obvious... it would strike me as very difficult for someone to get hit by this over and over again unless they're just not very good at adapting to be honest. And if they get hit by it once, sure it's kind of cheesey if they didn't know beforehand, but that's what adapting and learning are about. If this is a repeated issue, I get the feeling some people aren't trying hard enough to find a way around it.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

If your competitive meta involves Rumble Falls and Kongo Jungle, I'm curious how Zelda is ending up there and successfully edgeguarding there. There's almost no reason to ever end up under Rumble Falls except by choice, and players should be aware she has that option [Marth and Falcon can probably space dairs to stomp through the floor too, I know that works in Melee on Kongo Jungle, so it's not just her]. As for Kongo Jungle, it's a litte easier to end up slightly underneath the stage, but... Zelda's not very fast, and her setting up that hitbox should be kind of obvious... it would strike me as very difficult for someone to get hit by this over and over again unless they're just not very good at adapting to be honest. And if they get hit by it once, sure it's kind of cheesey if they didn't know beforehand, but that's what adapting and learning are about. If this is a repeated issue, I get the feeling some people aren't trying hard enough to find a way around it.

You said everything Bent already covered...and I liked his post to signify that I agreed with him after his explanation. I personally didn't think it to be much of a deal, but I'm trying to build the scene and many requested that I bring it up on the forums for the devs to see. So I did.

 

[Neville]

You said everything Bent already covered...and I liked his post so signify that I agreed with him after his explanation. I personally didn't think it to be much of a deal, but I'm trying to build the scene and many requested that I bring it up on the forums for the devs to see. So I did.

Please show them this thread and report back on the jimmies rustled.

 

[Thor]

You said everything Bent already covered...and I liked his post to signify that I agreed with him after his explanation. I personally didn't think it to be much of a deal, but I'm trying to build the scene and many requested that I bring it up on the forums for the devs to see. So I did.

I have a rather dubious habit of skimming most posts that aren't the OP and replying. In some threads I read carefully, but in here [as in the Jiggs thread], I just... didn't. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Kien]

it was a unanimous opinion that its cheesy and silly for a character to have the option to safely reach beneath stage while on top of the stage;

I could argue the same logic for attacking through the bottom of the stage to hit people who are on it. However, it's a commonly used competitive strategy that we all just learn to deal with. Not every character can do it either, so it's matchup specific. In this case, we should apply the same thoughts and teach ourselves that Zelda is capable of attacking through stages and covering ledges with her ranged hitboxes. Call it a counterpick for Zelda users if you would.