Withdraw Redesigning

Discussion in 'Squirtle' started by E4, Nov 7, 2015.

  1. E4

    E4 New Member

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    Being a big fan of the character Squirtle, I feel like he hasn't reach his full potential in this game. Considering the goal in this game is to make every character considerably broken, Squirtle just isn't up to par with the rest of the cast. One suggestion I have is to redesign his withdraw mechanics, I believe if correctly done it could be an extraordinary mobility tool for Squirtle and drastically increase the quality of his gameplay. As for the changes, I was thinking along the lines of :

    1. reducing start up
    2. increasing speed
    3. making it jump cancel-able
    4. weaker armor and less knockback (so it's not ridiculously overpowered)

    As of right now in 4.0b, squirtle may be good but does not have a reliable approach option and though he is strong in the air, he is weak on the ground. This withdraw redesign is ultimately more suitable to Squirtle's slippery and speedy gameplay and with this buff he will be able to compete with all the other characters.

    If anyone else agrees with me please let me know and add to this thread because it'd be great if the developers noticed and possibly consider implementing this change in a future patch!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2015
  2. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    So I think withdraw being a proper approach is a better fit for Squirtle, but the backroom opinion of Squirtle is that he's god tier (along with a decent number of other fighters) largely due to the sheer power on withdraw. So good idea, but I'm not quite confident in your analysis that Squirtle is weak, I think more than anything he's a highly technical character with not a lot of flair which results in him being underplayed and underrated.
     
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  3. E4

    E4 New Member

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    I had no idea that people considered him god tier, I just recently downloaded the mod so I was just going off of first impressions. Although withdraw is powerful it just felt kinda laggy and sluggish to me when I first played Squirtle, but I guess that just comes down to personal preference. I would prefer seeing withdraw being used as a combo-starter and mobility tool whereas other people like it as a strong kill option.
     
  4. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    Yeah, so actually I had some misunderstandings as well (I don't play Squirtle), the general consensus on withdraw is that it is pretty bad in 1v1 situations. However because Squirtle is so good at high levels we can't really make it better because buffing fighters who are really amazing is dangerous. Also, we do love the suggestions, so please if you have any other things you think you would be better make sure to post them.
     
  5. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Withdraw is a not-so-good move on an otherwise really good character.
     
  6. BC

    BC Momentum Based Player Playtester

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    As a Squirtle main, I feel the need to comment on this.

    Withdraw has always been a more situational move. It's either used for recovery, due to how early you can cancel the move, or it's used to got under certain moves/projectiles. It's also a somewhat good way to get away from a pressuring opponent, due to the high KB/shield damage the move has.

    Withdraw really isn't that bad, as long as you use it sparingly.
     
  7. Lucis Perficio

    Lucis Perficio Radiant Hero of Blue Flames

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    Then why not redesign it?
     
  8. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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    Squirtle doesn't need it to be redesigned to be better. He's got plenty of tools to help him compete. Yeah, it doesn't start a combo, but almost every one of Squirtle's non-B moves start one up. He's got a respectable jab-chain, his dash-attack easily sets up for combos, D-tilt is really fast (and hilarious), his f-air and aerial mobility is almost on par with Jigglypuff (minus the fall speed), he's got a lot of anti-air as well as aerial superiority... The only thing I could get behind is weaker armor with withdrawl so that he isn't nearly invincible with it. It doesn't need to be faster or easier to get off because it's both a recovery move and a finisher, thanks to its high knockback.

    Squirtle's one of those characters that's just "wait until you die"; you get hit, and then you just kinda watch yourself get chipped away while you're clutching your controller, wondering what ungodly act you performed that caused you to deserve such pain, helplessly wiggling your control stick and trying to tech as your character is beaten to a bloody mess by a tiny aquatic turtle.

    If I recall, correctly, there was a thread at one point where it was a couple of folks talking about how they didn't use Squirtle because of how "not fun" he was to fight against. I'm not sure if it's still up here... And this was prior to 3.Q, and actually I think around the time before Squirtle also got his Aqua Jet attack.
     
  9. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Some Squirtle main needs to play me when I'm able to play again... I always guessed Squirtle was underwhelming myself, but purely from knowing no good Squirtles and being unable to effectively play him, rather than actually knowing he was good/bad [that is, I held the vague opinion he was mediocre, but had no basis for that belief outside of "I can't play him effectively"], and would love to have someone change my mind.

    I've heard he beats Lucario... what are Squirtle's bad MUs, incidentally?
     
  10. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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    Bowser, funnily enough. Big turtle squashes tiny turtle. Anyone with super armor/invincibility during certain attacks. Marth or Ike if you can time him right and don't try to go for interrupts, mostly thanks to their counters (especially Ike's vs Withdrawl. So satisfying~). Um... Mario only if you're going up against Withdrawl abuse simply for the case of his smashes and Magic Cape (although if I only factor in Magic Cape, then I would have to also count Pit, which is just... eh)...
    I would say R.O.B. and Pikachu, but I hesitate simply because even though I "main random," I tend to lean toward those two the most, so I'm just better with them than the others.
    But yeah, if you're looking for a solid counter against Squirtle, then your best bet is Bowser because of how much he can snag Squirtle out of his attacks as well as take those hits. Bowser's grappling gets around Squirtle's tiny frame, speed, and his Withdrawl, which is what ultimately lets Squirtle get around other characters' attacks.
     
  11. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Squirtle is so fast and Bowser is so huge that if Squirtle touches Bowser he may as well just hand over the stock.
     
  12. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    Well to be fair if a 1v1 includes Bowser every combo by either player should pretty much be 0-death
     
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  13. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    This is very much true. BC (who has a really good Squirtle) was trying to find a counter for Bowser, whom I've recently discovered I'm really good at. Bowser can't really touch Squirtle, since Squirtle is too mobile. Squirtle also has the ability to fair Bowser across the stage and into the blast zone. If the Squirtle is losing, he's doing it wrong.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2015
  14. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Fun fact: Falco's first hit reflector combos into the dragging part of reflector on Bowser at low percents [except for maybe the farthest hit away from Falco], so reflector -> any grounded A-attack is guaranteed at low percents.

    Random question: Can you tech Royal Rampage dthrow? Can you tech Flying Slam? Or is the pop up of dthrow on neutral B down, as well as the grounding on side+B, always guaranteed?
     
  15. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    General rule of thumb is if it bounces you off the ground you can't tech it, reason being that you're already grounded when you got hit and teching only works when initially contacting a surface.
     
  16. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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    Bah, I say
     
  17. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Does that mean flying slam is or isn't techable? Is being grounded guaranteed or not?
     
  18. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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    I am pretty sure flying slam is not techable because you get buried. Kinda like Ganondorf's aerial Wizard Foot while the enemy is grounded.
     
  19. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    Any attack that impales, sleeps, or stuns cannot be teched because you must be grounded for those effects to occur. Rob can probably tech flying slam though.
     
  20. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Being a top tier shouldn't mean other people's tools don't work on you, that's just-

    Devs: But look at Smash 4 Sheik!

    Me:
    [​IMG]
     
  21. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    Thor,if you're referring to Bowser's Flying Slam not working on ROB, that was an accident. He somehow avoids being hit by the grounding hitbox of Flying Slam.
     
  22. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    ROB seems to be that one character that a bunch of things simply don't work on, just because he is ROB.
     
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  23. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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    Little-known fact: R.O.B. actually stands for
    Robotic
    Overlord
    Battlemaster
     
  24. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    The grounding hitbox just misses ROB and needs to be adjusted. But more on the Bowser Squirle MU I have less problems fighting MK as Bowser which should really tell you how bad it is.
     

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