The Gravity of the Situation: Gravity and Minus 4.0b

[Thor]

Prayer based? Nothing in this game or many other fighting games is luck based. You either know how to follow up and read your opponent's mitigating movements, or you don't.

Samus is not a fast faller by any stretch of the imagination. I think you're wildly overestimating the magnitude of the gravity increase. I think it's important to remember that this is still a beta build. Ganondorf is very difficult to short hop with in this version, but that doesn't necessarily mean his fall speed needs changing; perhaps he just needs to short hop 10% higher. Little tweaks can fix all the problems while retaining the (in my opinion) hugely beneficial universal air speed increase.

By prayer-based, I meant you had to really, really hope they mess up... very similar to how in Fox vs Sheik in Melee, vs the best reaction tech-chasing Sheiks, once grabbed, Fox can mash buttons (to escape the grab, which may not even work at any if the Sheik player does an immediate throw) or pray they mess up, but if Sheik does not mess up, Fox WILL die, regardless of what the Fox player does. In a word, Fox must pray.

Fast-faller Samus was in 3.5 and 3.Q, and I campaigned vigorously for her to be reverted. I'm not sure if I should reference version number of what I'm talking about when I discuss version numbers/changes, but I suppose it is prudent to do so.

Ganondorf's air speed vs fall speed is what is truly problematic [shorthopping is fine-ish-ish, but being offstage is AWFUL]. If he had air speed more like Puff [lol] or Ness [still lol] or slower fall speed, the issue would be less noticeable, but right now it hurts an already very bad recovery. [Incidentally, if it was truly just an airspeed increase, that is, people move faster in the air, the recovery issues would be lessened somewhat... but it's only vertical momentum that was altered].

I'm curious if you can deliver, as a sales pitch/list of arguments/etc., why you think the gravity change was hugely beneficial. Even reading the blurbs here, I just don't see it... it seems like the devs somehow tied gravity with hitstun, but hitstun reductions without gravity changes would still make leave everything sans grab combos intact [some of which I think sort of stopped working anyway], without messing up auto-cancel windows, general combos [frame-tight stuff is gone but most of that stuff was frankly silly anyway, ex: Falco chaining forward airs together], or how most of the cast feels and plays. This drastically alters some characters to a point much greater than just the words "Gravity increased 1.0 -> 1.1x" (or however it was listed), and I think for a lot of characters, that's not in a good way...

 

[Sammi-husky]

I thought i explained the reasoning fairly well, actually. We wanted to increase the pace of the game, and one of the only options left is grav increase. Everything else in minus is fast enough, we don't need more cancels, more run speed, more movement options, etc etc. This wasn't a balance initiative, but a design one. We wanted the game faster. Nothing more. Problematic characters will be fixed, and so will most other issues if you so choose to tell us them. Instead of asking for a full revert, just tell us exactly what characters you think need to be adjusted. Character gravity can be adjusted individually where necessary to make the character feel better, as well as keep them true to what they were intended to do.

 

[Thor]

I thought i explained the reasoning fairly well, actually. We wanted to increase the pace of the game, and one of the only options left is grav increase. Everything else in minus is fast enough, we don't need more cancels, more run speed, more movement options, etc etc. This wasn't a balance initiative, but a design one. We wanted the game faster. Nothing more. Problematic characters will be fixed, and so will most other issues if you so choose to tell us them. Instead of asking for a full revert, just tell us exactly what characters you think need to be adjusted. Character gravity can be adjusted individually where necessary to make the character feel better, as well as keep them true to what they were intended to do.

Frankly, if you want a faster game, tone the punishes down. When the punish game gets too extreme, this happens (video is of one match, but if you want to watch it, go ahead...):
Unless you literally mean you want people to move faster, but not the game to progress faster, at which point I guess the gravity change does exactly what it's intended to do...

As for exactly what characters need to be adjusted:

- Link: Up+B gets more vertical moment upwards [less extreme than reverting gravity].
- Ganondorf: adjust character gravity back to original
- Falco: adjust character gravity back to original [laser heights on SH and FH are fixed with this, as are some of his combos and other issues]
- Snake: make nair's last hit come out in a fullhop on FD somehow [make his fullhop higher, revert gravity, but SOMETHING] *I say FD because yes it comes out going from the top platform of battlefield to a side platform or the base platform, but that's not useful most of the time, if ever*
- Pikachu: At least fix SH dair so it autocancels again [same issue as Snake nair]
- Captain Falcon: adjusting character gravity back to original [he already falls quite fast anyway] (Bent_00 if you disagree please say so, calling Bent because if he thinks this Falcon is better I'll default to him on it, since I am definitely willing to trust his opinion on this)
- Sheik: adjust character gravity back to normal (?) [she seems somehow slightly less affected by this]
- Fox: if he was already Melee physics in fallspeed/etc., reverting that seems to hold true to his Melee build. If not, don't.

This is 3-4 characters [roughly 10% of the cast] where I think a full reversion is best, and another 4 characters who I think need smaller gravity-related changes [or only 3 if Fox is now in Melee mode fully].

I don't have as much of an opinion on other parts of the cast [ex, no idea about Donkey Kong or Sonic, and little opinion on Kirby] because I haven't played them as much.

If others want to add to this list or disagree [remove them], by all means.

 

[Sammi-husky]

-snip-

Thanks for the list, i'll make sure to look into these characters personally (my playtesting group has mains of each of these chars, coincidentally enough). Chars like snake, ganon, and cap can stand to be significantly reduced. Maybe not completely reverted, but definitely significantly less.

 

[Neville]

Thor The only Minus match I've ever seen go to 8 minutes was one where Sonic was fighting on Hyrule castle. Minus is fast enough to the point where it really shouldn't ever time out. There's really no issue with the pacing of the game as it is now.

 

[Bent 00]

Thor, your thoughts line up with mine ~90% of the time. I agree with everything you said in that last post.

Falcon, Snake, and especially Ganondorf felt much better (to me) back in 1.0x Gravity.

Honestly, the 10% Gravity increase soured Minus pretty hard for me. I was disappointed enough by certain other things, and you know how much I love the offstage game -- the extra Gravity Nerfed that significantly, and my enjoyment of Minus along with it. I'd like to see a return to 1.0x Gravity... 3.Q was plenty fast enough IMO; if the devs insist on adjusting it, I think it should be done on a per-character basis, instead of a universal increase. I know that would take longer, but it's the proper way to do it.

The mild floatiness of 3.Q and prior versions was part of Minus' charm; I agree that 1.1x Gravity makes Minus play too much like Project M. I can see why the devs thought hitstun needed to be adjusted, but I'm unconvinced that 1.0x Gravity was a problem.

I echo Thor's opinion here:

One of the things that separated Minus from other mods and smash games was that it retained a crazy combo game without high gravity. In increasing the gravity, Minus is being homogenized with other games.

Also, I don't think hitstun needs to be reverted if gravity is... combos are crazy easy in new hitstun even if people are floatier. Grabs may need alteration, but zero-deaths would still be plenty possible, and it would cause more player-player interaction with DI mixups/etc.

Also, floaty Lucario, floaty Samus, and floaty Luigi, now possessing actual combo games, were quite possibly THE biggest draw into Minus. Despite the name, Minus frankly doesn't feel like Minus anymore... it's more like some Smash4/PM wannabe that's fun, but doesn't appeal to me nearly as much over either of those games.

Would anyone else like to try Minus 4.0 with 3.Q levels of Gravity and/or Hitstun?

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I feel like the ppl that dislike the new gravity altogether are simply exhibiting typical "I DONT LIKE CHANGE" behavior.

The hitstun ins 3.Q was atrocious so I'm glad it was changed, but if it wasn't for the gravity also being changed, Minus would have lost a lot of its combos.

For those that dislike the gravity, do you prefer intense hitstun to it? If so, why?

Also I've played enough Sm4sh and PM to know that the games are wildly different from Minus, especially in terms of available techniques.

 

[Thor]

I feel like the ppl that dislike the new gravity altogether are simply exhibiting typical "I DONT LIKE CHANGE" behavior.

The hitstun ins 3.Q was atrocious so I'm glad it was changed, but if it wasn't for the gravity also being changed, Minus would have lost a lot of its combos.

For those that dislike the gravity, do you prefer intense hitstun to it? If so, why?

Also I've played enough Sm4sh and PM to know that the games are wildly different from Minus, especially in terms of available techniques.

You do realize that literally the entire time I've been saying "Go ahead and make the hitstun lower, just revert the ******* gravity," the entire time, right?

To everyone defending the new gravity:

STOP TRYING TO STATE THE NEW GRAVITY AND NEW HITSTUN ARE A COUPLE TO BE COMPARED TO THE OLD GRAVITY AND OLD HITSTUN. WE COULD DO OLD/OLD, NEW/NEW/, NEW/OLD, AND OLD/NEW.

I personally have been arguing for new hitstun, old gravity the ENTIRE time, so saying "Do you prefer intense hitstun to it?" is a logical fallacy [the false dilemma] and something I'm strong inclined to ignore because the question is 100% irrelevant to what I'm arguing for [and incidentally, yes, I do prefer massive hitstun to high gravity, but again, doesn't matter]. Minus might have lost some combos, but if you think the game would be hard to combo in, you should think a little harder... Smash 4 Link can do ~40% combos from 0% on Falcon in Smash 4 [bomb dtilt bair spin attack is guaranteed even on away DI, and you can do another bair on in or neutral DI before the spin attack], and Falcon's ability to combo you all over the stage would hardly be removed in lower gravity.

The DIFFERENCE is that zero-deaths would be less prevalent [still entirely possible], leaving more player interaction mid-combo by slightly increasing the effectiveness of DI. Would SOME throws be less useful [Falcon dthrow]? Yes. But would most combo starters and combo extenders somehow not work? Of course not! Falcon will still have good ol' uair uair knee [add more uairs in at your discretion] and maybe even knee knee on bad enough DI, but it'd be harder to hit consistently.

So, I'm stating I think that is GOOD, both for Minus as a whole and for the playerbase [if combos are harder, people will start to complain less about tactics labelled "OP" like Kirby wall of pain and Falcon's knee chains because those things will demand a higher skill level, which means they'll be either less frequent or they'll hopefully realize sooner that such things demonstrate some level of mastery of one's character rather than an issue with the design.]

There is definitely a line between "combos are hard" and "Combos don't work", but if gravity was 3.Q [sans Samus] and hitstun was 4.0, we'd be nowhere near even "Combos are hard", merely "Combos are not EZ".

Spoiler: As an aside

I'm also aware that the games are widely different from PM and Smash 4, but we have already had NUMBEROUS fall speed increases [old Samus was finally fixed, but Diddy and Luigi were sped up, and now this to everyone at once], and it feels not only more and more like PM (still different? Yes. but as different as before? Definitely not), and not in a way that makes characters more fun.

So no, it's not a question of if I don't like change - I've managed to take most of the patch in stride, even some stuff I don't like [Falco's reflector, Luigi Thunderhand], and I LIKE the hitstun reduction [as well as Ganondorf's new projectile, among other things], but it's all overshadowed by gravity, which is why it comes across as hating change.

 

[Neville]

Not only is Thor completely right about the gravity and hitstun being mutually inclusive, the devs could also decide to go with completely new values as a middle ground. Don't use it as an argument or you'll look back and realize you sounded stupid.

 

[Valravn]

Am I in the minority when I say that a 0-40% combo that requires a medium level of know-how to execute seems really... normal? I can't imagine playing Smash without the ability to combo that far. It's slightly different if it's (practically) guaranteed, but it's still fun and acceptable to me when that happens in PM. If I manage to grab Squirtle with Ganondorf in PM, proper DI reads can let me chaingrab him to 56%, but the matchup is still even or Squirtle-favored in the end. You have to get the grab to begin with, and even if you get that 'free' damage, you have to win neutral again to actually convert it into a stock.

All decent fighting games find their equilibrium. An overpowered option becomes weaker when everyone knows that everyone wants to do it, and the game provides (even the most niche) countermeasures to prevent overuse of that option. I'm not at all concerned about whether Minus is balanced, because I'm certain a balance can be reached regardless of input from the devs. I just want to make sure the game is fun to lose. Winning is fun unless it's too easy, but losing noninteractively is a real bummer.

In that regard, I think having some level of counterplay to combos is essential. For combo glue, I prefer gravity to hitstun duration because SDI is completely ridiculous against some characters even now. DI is a factor either way. Getting back to the ground is a lot easier with high gravity. Brawl airdodges don't hurt. One airdodge can cover a large portion of some characters' descents.

I like 4.0b gravity, and think the game would be fine with almost any amount of hitstun. (Too little would be a problem.)

 

[Thor]

Am I in the minority when I say that a 0-40% combo that requires a medium level of know-how to execute seems really... normal? I can't imagine playing Smash without the ability to combo that far. It's slightly different if it's (practically) guaranteed, but it's still fun and acceptable to me when that happens in PM. If I manage to grab Squirtle with Ganondorf in PM, proper DI reads can let me chaingrab him to 56%, but the matchup is still even or Squirtle-favored in the end. You have to get the grab to begin with, and even if you get that 'free' damage, you have to win neutral again to actually convert it into a stock.

All decent fighting games find their equilibrium. An overpowered option becomes weaker when everyone knows that everyone wants to do it, and the game provides (even the most niche) countermeasures to prevent overuse of that option. I'm not at all concerned about whether Minus is balanced, because I'm certain a balance can be reached regardless of input from the devs. I just want to make sure the game is fun to lose. Winning is fun unless it's too easy, but losing noninteractively is a real bummer.

In that regard, I think having some level of counterplay to combos is essential. For combo glue, I prefer gravity to hitstun duration because SDI is completely ridiculous against some characters even now. DI is a factor either way. Getting back to the ground is a lot easier with high gravity. Brawl airdodges don't hurt. One airdodge can cover a large portion of some characters' descents.

I like 4.0b gravity, and think the game would be fine with almost any amount of hitstun. (Too little would be a problem.)

A 0-40% combo with medium know-how seems normal? Sure, then lower the gravity again. Right now, a 0-death combo as Falcon while never really grinding him and being pretty bad at his Melee and PM forms, I've done more than once, and from 30-death seems pretty frequent [almost routine].

Having never really grinded the game, with well over 90% being online play on the fly and some other chunk being knowledge applied from other games, I also find it very, very simple to take someone from 0 - 60 with Falco, or better if I get one reset, and often death.

While I admit I don't know how people can DI so badly as to get quad-knee'd, I have landed my fair share of double knees, and it's downright easy on bad DI [it's possible on no DI, not on down-away DI as far as I can tell].

I think the difference is that I think with a slightly higher skill floor in terms of combos, the game would be significantly more rewarding to people who play other games, without being at all prohibitive to anyone interested in getting into Smash via Minus [as the inputs are as simple as Smash 4, and you have more cancels and such that offers greater leniency]. Both in 3.Q and now, it feels like auto-combo the game, and I think with 3.Q gravity, 4.0 hitstun, it might start to feel more natural, like the non-64 smash games, while still having physics very friendly to extended combos.

In that regard, I think having some level of counterplay to combos is essential. For combo glue, I prefer gravity to hitstun duration because SDI is completely ridiculous against some characters even now.

I can't tell if you don't understand how this works or typo'd, but SDI is inputtable during hitlag, not hitstun. Hitstun has no effect on how easy/hard SDI is. If hitstun lasted for 1 minute every time you got jabbed, but hitlag was 0 frames, you'd be unable to SDI the jab at all. Meanwhile, if jab had zero frames of hitstun and 120 frames of hitlag, you'd be frozen for 2 seconds every time you got jabbed, but could act immediately after hitlag ended.

 

[Valravn]

Yeah, that was a bit of a flub; for some reason I thought we were talking about Minus' ridiculous hitlag. Maybe there's too much hitstun, but I don't particularly care one way or the other. Hitstun is a fine, really. Being able to SDI out of falcon punch is super weird.

I'm absolutely fine with Minus being a game where players occasionally trade zero to death combos. The better player will still win. I think the game would be equally fair were hitstun decreased to Melee Roy levels, but I wouldn't play it. I don't have the patience to spend two minutes grinding out every stock and playing footsies in neutral six times to get someone offstage. The only thing that changes is who is considered a good player, and that's fine.

I would perform best with melee gravity and slightly more hitstun, because I prefer the game of reading and reaction to the game of patience and calculation. I don't think it's my place to tell everyone else that that's how Minus should be. I suppose my point is that the gravity/hitstun/hitlag values don't actually matter in a balance sense. I think what we're doing here is finding out what kind of game the Minus community wants to play.

A 0-40% combo with medium know-how seems normal? Sure, then lower the gravity again.

That's not what I meant. I mean it seems normal for a smash game to have 40% combos, especially at low percents when knockback is lower. The stock has barely started at 40%. Zero to death combos are a part of the game, too, and entirely fair. If you don't want to get combo'd to death, either get out of the combo or don't get hit in the first place.

 

[Bent 00]

Instead of just talking about it, how about we experiment with this code already?

Global Attribute Modification
* C2857658 00000008
* C023D134 2C050BCF
* 41820014 2C050BD0
* 4182000C 2C050BD7
* 40A20020 7C0802A6
* 48000009 3f8ccccd
* 7C6802A6 7C0803A6
* C0030000 FC210032
* 60000000 00000000
Gravity*=1.1
Fallspeed*=1.1
Max Fallspeed*=1.1

Would someone (Mawootad?) please tell me which parts of this code control Gravity, Fall Speed, and Max Fall Speed?

And how to return them to 1.0x?

I'm curious about how to do this with Hitstun, as well:

Hitstun [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
* 02B88F48 00030001
* 04B87AA8 3F000000
Current Setting: .50 Hitstun

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

[Thor]

Yeah, that was a bit of a flub; for some reason I thought we were talking about Minus' ridiculous hitlag. Maybe there's too much hitstun, but I don't particularly care one way or the other. Hitstun is a fine, really. Being able to SDI out of falcon punch is super weird.

I'm absolutely fine with Minus being a game where players occasionally trade zero to death combos. The better player will still win. I think the game would be equally fair were hitstun decreased to Melee Roy levels, but I wouldn't play it. I don't have the patience to spend two minutes grinding out every stock and playing footsies in neutral six times to get someone offstage. The only thing that changes is who is considered a good player, and that's fine.

I would perform best with melee gravity and slightly more hitstun, because I prefer the game of reading and reaction to the game of patience and calculation. I don't think it's my place to tell everyone else that that's how Minus should be. I suppose my point is that the gravity/hitstun/hitlag values don't actually matter in a balance sense. I think what we're doing here is finding out what kind of game the Minus community wants to play.


That's not what I meant. I mean it seems normal for a smash game to have 40% combos, especially at low percents when knockback is lower. The stock has barely started at 40%. Zero to death combos are a part of the game, too, and entirely fair. If you don't want to get combo'd to death, either get out of the combo or don't get hit in the first place.

Definitely down for a hitlag reduction. The SDI possible on Falcon's knee is absurd [hilarious, but absurd].

If by Melee Roy you mean his tippers, yeah that level is kinda sad [it's almost as bad as Charizard sourspot fair, lol].

I think finding out about what the community wants to play is actually a really good way to put it... I know that I voted as I did because I wanted to play "Brawl if Brawl had extremely high powerlevels and more hitstun than Melee", not "Some sort of amalagation of stuff where characters are ridiculously strong", which is what it feels like [at the end of the day, at least for me, fallspeed is the determinant of what the game is... if Melee values were put in, it'd be to me much more accurate to call it Melee or PM Minus, and if people had fallspeeds like in Smash 4, with meteoric fastfall speeds, I'd msay it feels like Smash 4 Minus], and in that sense, universally altering the gravity just feels wrong.

As I've said in the past, one of the allures of Minus to me and also to people I work to convince to play it is that, at the end of the day, if you main X Brawl character, you can pick up and play your main about 80% of the time and at least feel at home moving around with them [exceptions obviously made to spacies and old Samus, as well as some others] (which is why I wanted Samus reverted so badly... she didn't feel like Brawl (although I also think she's significantly more interesting to play against and as while floaty instead of falling quickly)]. Clearly, some people feel more at home in higher fallspeeds due to other smash games, and although I play PM, Smash 4, and Melee quite frequently [going to a Melee tournament and being part of the TMG crew battle to defend my school, UIUC!], I still somehow feel more at home in Minus in Brawl fallspeeds. That's probably why the vote is so split.

Spoiler: As an aside

If someone told me they were going to universally alter a random value by a default multiplier of either 1.2 or .8, the 4 things I'd tell them to take out of the RNG are gravity, weight, fallspeed, and landing lag. I could live with lower [or higher] hitstun, damage values [although 1.2 on the knee >_>], higher or lower shieldstun, higher or lower jump heights [RIP Snake nair again, as well as several autocancels, but if the gravity is the same, at least they have one move gutted and not entire moves changed], autocancel windows, active move durations... the list goes on I'm sure, but at the end of the day, I take the low landing lag and fallspeeds as almost fundamental of the game. The gravity change, permanent or not, has definitely been a wake-up call that it is not the case that such values are mostly immutable. So, to the devs, I ask that a universal landing lag nerf/buff or universal weight nerfs/buffs not occur (although if literally all characters get carefully tweaked, that's very arguably different).

 

[Mawootad]

All numbers read off the same constant, which is 1.1 or 3f8ccccd. The code is very simple, it checks if the current variable (r5) is equal to gravity, fall speed or fast fall speed (bd0, bcf, bd7) and multiplies the value by the constant specified in the code.

 

[Viennamoose]

I still don't see the need for true combo strings. It's too easy and doesn't feel rewarding.

I played a lot of Smash 4 over the course of the night. Dorf, Ike, Rob... My usual guys to go to when I wanna have the most fun. These matches weren't against typical FG noobs and tryhards. This was against an old rival of mine from back in Brawl, someone who is legitimately skilled, much like myself. We played a lot of three for alls with one of his friends, and they were pretty hectic. Sure, I'm not fantastic outside of one on one, but I managed. I kept having too hard a time as Dorf, unable to net kills because of his lack of speed or options to deal with projectile users, so I opted for Rob.
I was pulling off strings, combos, snipes, and glorious meteors left and right, essentially destroying both of them, even doing so without losing a stock. It felt incredibly rewarding being able to earn every one of those stocks because I was able to make the right calls where it mattered to keep those strings going, and with a character that isn't designed heavily for comboing outside of throws.
That is where I find the fun in Smash Bros. I feel that rush as each hit connects, extending my string longer and longer, either putting them into kill percentages or flat out taking the stock. I don't play for combos that simply go on and on until someone makes a mistake, or they fall out from the high percents, or they just get 0-death'd. I play for that rush, hoping my next hit will land, hoping I made the right prediction on my opponent.

Of course, this isn't for everyone, as there are those out there who don't seek to improve their skills to reach for the same kinds of thrills that I do. Regardless of that fact, what draws people to Minus, or rather, what has always drawn people to Minus, is the insanity in what the chars can put out. The less technical people out there don't care about numbers and frames. They want action. They want zany. They want "oh my god did you see that!?" Minus has already had that, but the more competitive side has seeped into its veins a little too much. When I was on the team, I wanted to stay true to the original vision, of what I grew to love about Minus over Pretend Melee. I wanted characters to have their unique traits, their new moves and abilities, and to retain that sense of what-the heck-just-happened?!, but in a more positive way. I only aimed to throw a sense of balance in there so it would be a bit more accessible to those who are not as skilled as myself or others on that level, so there is nothing that no player has access to in order to abuse to get that win if they spent the time mastering it.
I was the best DK in Minus before I quit, and I mastered everything about the character to the point where DK seemed to be able to overcome even his worst matchups. And why was that? Because he had everything, sans a reflector. Details aside, he is a combo monster, and in the right matchup, he can score no less than 60+% from the moment he grabs you, upwards of 80+% against certain chars. This is well into his KO range for a majority of his attacks. After a while, a lot of people complained about him when I used him, while some simply refused to fight him. Taking what I learned about him into Smash 4 has allowed me to see just how bad it was. All I wanted to see in Minus was fun that everyone could get into without the frustrations.

And that is my sleepy rant thingy. Take from it what you will.

Honestly man, I found this post extremely touching. Personally I don't feel like the changes to gravity and fall speed have affected combos at all. I can still do everything I could before, plus a few new combos.

Link's Up-B is fucking broken though.

 

[Thor]

Honestly man, I found this post extremely touching. Personally I don't feel like the changes to gravity and fall speed have affected combos at all. I can still do everything I could before, plus a few new combos.

Link's Up-B is fucking broken though.

You should have seen last patch. Jab jab up+b did something like 49.5 damage to a shield, and a shield has 50 health. It got nerfed.

Unless you just mean in terms of raw KB and stuff. I'm not sure how Minus shieldstun changed it, but in all official Nintendo smash games, you can SH Falcon Punch out of shield as a guaranteed punish if you shield the first hit. In Minus I know this works if you powershield it, although the shieldstun is possibly now high enough to avoid that working.

The aerial one is strong but can be SDI'd. Takes practice, and you're gonna get hit by once in a while [probably]. Not the easiest thing to deal with, but there are worse things.

 

[Xentas]

Not sure why everyone (was) is so mad at the gravity change.

It doesn't affect anyone much really, aside from timing and some minor control. I always hated how LOOONNNGG it took to fall in PM, about 10 seconds for some characters. And let me remind you, it's not like you still cant air combo to KO characters.

However, I would have nothing against some character adjustments or even just changing what the basis of gravity is. I DON'T want edited hitstun (please nononononono), I like where it is. Perfectly fun... Not sure if it's fair.

I don't really main anyone (it says Bowser, but that's just my go to and my favorite from Brawl, I'm also a fan of Snake and Ganon as well as Ike and Sonic), so it's not like the change is weird from any of the other mods or Minus versions for the characters. It just makes characters have a bit more margin for error then what I'd consider "normal". Fox, though... Yeah. It makes him freaking weird.

 

[Valravn]

People fall faster in PM than in Minus, on the whole. I'm personally a huge fan of this change and wouldn't mind even more gravity. That probably wouldn't fly without decreasing hitstun more though, and I like hitstun where it is at. Apart from a few very short short hops, everyone seems much more fun to play in the air for me this patch.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I think we should have the changes Thor suggested, along with slightly increased hitstun.

 

[Neville]

Thor's alt ^

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Thor's alt ^

 

[Xentas]

>inb4 permablocked

 

[Momurderer]

So, according to the poll and reading through this thread, it looks like the community is split on the gravity. Have thoughts changed now that we all had some more time with the beta? I can say that the gravity has helped Sonic with his combos and chasing. Stuff just lines up better for him but his offstage dair has become a little riskier (bout time he gets some risk involved... geez). Chasing offstage with Boost after a knock back is easier in terms of characters not always being way above me so I have to use Boost and burn my spring immediately just trying to get a hit. I haven't had too much more time with my other main man D3 but I'm starting to practice a little more with him. Personally I'm satisfied with things and with a few tweaks I think it will get better.

By the way, any tweaks that are definitely going to happen? The only thing I would like is to get rid of Olimar all together and put Knuckles in the game or just get rid of Olimar and don't even bother to add a new character. All in all though, I'm still for the gravity change. Most casual players I talk to haven't even noticed it.