Stagelist for Tournaments

[13131]

suggestions?

aside from:
BF, FD, SV, Yoshi (Brawl), Lylat,
and Non-Transforming PS2

 

[Glyph]

Neutral
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Yoshi's Island

Counterpick
-Rumble Falls
-Lylat Cruise
-Norfair
-Halberd
-Distant Planet
-Mario Bros
-Skyworld
-Pictochat
-Temple
-Dream Greens
-Pokemon Stadium


Here's the list I used in my recent online tournament. I think it covers pretty much all the stages that should be included, but I'm certainly open to any ideas on stages I missed/should remove.

 

[13131]

looks good. pretty much every stage me and the people i play with use, with the exception of norfair (voted out, people just really don't like that layout) and rumble falls is pretty hotly debated. i'm sure everyone knows why. inflexible recoveries have to be precise. possibly unfair..

thoughts on delfino, luigi's mansion, and the new frigate orpheon? any reason they couldn't be decent counterpicks?

 

[Glyph]

Frigate I like a lot and I'm not sure how I missed that, but Luigi's Mansion and Delphino are just too janky for my tastes. Mansion I believe is best used as a slot for Dracula's Castle (such a fun stage), and Delphino has both water and walls in certain parts that will cost you free stocks for just happening to land in the wrong location.

Norfair I'm not a big fan of. Fun stage to play on, just not one I'd ever want to see in a tournament set.

 

[Tybis]

I don't think there's really much reason to kick certain stages off the legal list just because we don't like them. Many of these stages now have issues that caused legality debate removed, such as Luigi's Mansion. Now that the Mansion has no "cave of life" ceilings/circle camping, there is very little, if any, reason to not include it.

I'd argue for Brinstar's inclusion, at least for 1v1 play (too small for 2v2/FFA).

Delphino is a little harder to defend though. On one hand, it has many transitions/phases that might mess you up if you're not being careful. On the other hand, none of these phases are very long, and you can at least see where the main platform is about to land.

Rainbow Cruise is kind of in the same boat (heh heh) with Delphino, but less people seem to like it. It's totally unrandom, but the boat has exploitable walls. I'd say it's on the border of counterpick/not legal stages.

I'd say Yoshi's Island Melee should only be legal in 2v2, as it's very large.

Is Jungle Japes too unbalaced for counterpick status?

 

[13131]

what about the new 75m?

 

[NEWB]

People complain about the blast lines there. I don't see a problem.

 

[Thor]

Is Peach's Castle not legal because the teching possibilities of the bumper and the side things that float? I really like that stage actually and don't think those things are a major problem (I think they add some DI strategy without being like a cave of life or anything...).

 

[NEWB]

The issue there is likely that you can't choose which version of the stage you end up on. Otherwise I'm not sure.

Where will lavender town stand? And that stage is from smash land? What is that?

 

[Glyph]

Peach's Castle would proooooobably be a counterpick? Personally I'd put Bowser's Castle over it thanks to the consistent ledges on each side, but its certainly far from imbalanced otherwise. And if I'm remembering right, you can pick which one you want with like X/Y or L/R or something. I'm going waaaay back in my vbrawl knowledge on that one.

Lavender Town is a strong candidate for a neutral, though an argument for counterpick could be made since its technically kinda luck based with how the platforms show up.

 

[NEWB]

Couldn't the same be said for yoshi's island brawl? It was actually really funny. I was falco and used up b, but still failed to reach the ledge. At the last possible second, the platform saved me. Then I won :3

 

[Thor]

Wait, is there more than a background difference for the two versions of Peach's Castle? I thought the only difference was that one had a sunset background and one had the Smash 64 background... someone want to list to me all the differences between these two stages?

 

[Tybis]

Lavender Town is a strong candidate for a neutral, though an argument for counterpick could be made since its technically kinda luck based with how the platforms show up.

Where will lavender town stand? And that stage is from smash land? What is that?

In Super Smash Land (a fan game), the ghosts were random, but in Minus, they'll follow a predictable pattern.

Wait, is there more than a background difference for the two versions of Peach's Castle? I thought the only difference was that one had a sunset background and one had the Smash 64 background... someone want to list to me all the differences between these two stages?

Currently, the stone block that slides in and out is slightly different between the two; on Peach's, it follows the classic route in 64, it goes all the way in, resulting in the ledge "disappearing" for a few seconds. For Bowser's, the block doesn't slide in so far, so there's always a ledge available for both sides. As said before, there is a way to choose which stage appears by holding certain buttons.
The differing layouts are subject to change.

 

[Neville]

Warioware is used as a Project M counterpick so I think that should be added.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

What about Dreamland?

 

[Pin Clock]

Here's a proposed stagelist, tell me what you think!

Neutral
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Stadium 2
Kongo Jungle 64
Fountain of Dreams (Singles only)
Yoshi's Story Melee (Singles only)
New Pork City (Doubles only)

Counterpick
Rumble Falls-
Temple-
Delphino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Lavander Town
Stadium 1
Castle Seige
Dream Greens
Halbard
1337m
Lavaville
Warioware (Singles only)
Metal Cavern (Singles only)
Saffron 64 (Doubles Only)

 

[Glyph]

Neutral -
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville

Counterpick -
Rumble Falls
Frigate Orphion
Halberd
Lylat Cruise (could be neutral)
Wario Ware
Skyworld
Lavender Town
DK 64
Jungle Japes
Fountain of Dreams

More questionable counterpicks-
Yoshi's Story Melee
Pictochat
1337 M
Lavaville

Teams Counterpick -
Mario Kingdom
New Pork City

Wrote this one up for Tybis a few weeks ago, its pretty solid. There's a few stages you've listed that shouldn't be included since walls pretty much mean infinites (Hyrule 64, Saffron City). Delphino and Castle Siege are out unless the walkoffs/walls/water get removed (or already were). Other than that its just a matter of having a few CPs as neutrals and vice versa.

 

[Bent 00]

Does anyone have a list of all the Minus-ified stages, with descriptions of the modifications? I'm talking about any stage that the Minus Team has customized, officially or unofficially. There are a bunch of Minus-exclusive stages I'd like to include in an "ultimate compilation" stage set eventually, and I want to make sure each is given proper credit on the Stage Select Screen.

 

[Neville]

There's a few stages you've listed that shouldn't be included since walls pretty much mean infinites (Hyrule 64, Saffron City). Delphino and Castle Siege are out unless the walkoffs/walls/water get removed (or already were). Other than that its just a matter of having a few CPs as neutrals and vice versa.

As a fox player I know what the word "Wall infinites" means. Shine wavedash straight down(don't know how else to say it) rinse and repeat. Also even in some vBrawl
tournaments Delphino is used. I remember specifically some great sets between Otori and M2K at Apex so its not some small tourneys either.

 

[Thor]

Delfino is fine because the transformations that have problems are temporary (you don't have to play around them for a whole match). While it's not a starter, I think leaving it legal as a CP (at least for now) is perfectly fine.

Unless we want a really small stage list, in which case, ban it.

This would be a limited but good stage list (in my opinion) if we're looking for a very small stage list:

Spoiler

Neutrals:
Smashville
Battlefield
Pokémon Stadium 2

CPs:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl stage)
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Norfair

That's about it for a limited stage list, and I think Norfair could be replaced by some stages, but I don't know if FoD or Yoshi's Melee would be a better replacement for it (assumes Norfair will return).

MegaSaturn99 I think some people call wavedashing straight down "Wavestalling" because you do the action that would normally perform a wavedash but you stay still. I don't know that for a fact though.

Glyph, I think Yoshi's Story Melee is less questionable than Jungle Japes, but that's a personal thing. Also, Lavaville should probably be banned in my opinion. I really think Norfair would be a fantastic CP or neutral if it was added [the three platform, zero-hazards one that was in with the stage expansion pack originally]. Metal Cavern is also probably a CP stage, especially if it gets a slight horizontal blastzone expansion - while ROB may not like small stages, it's not a reason to ban the stage (I'm just kidding about the ROB = you saying ban it, but that stage is perfectly fine as a CP - small size is not a reason to ban the stage). I feel like I should know of some other stage that would be on here (Peach's Castle N64 Bowser maybe?) but I don't have the game on right now so I can't say more. Also, how is Lavender Town fine but Metal Cavern isn't?

Also Lylat Cruise would be neutral if we had a 7th stage so each side can strike 3, but I don't know what that neutral would be - I'd nominate Yoshi's Melee or FoD but I don't think you'd like those.

Also, either make Spear Pillar fun again or put it on the CP list - banning it and not having Dialga do freaky awesome stuff every 10 seconds is a waste of a stage in my opinion.

If people wanted a large stage list, this would be a large, generous (but still rather fair) stage list:

Spoiler

Neutrals:
Smashville
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Lylat Cruise
Stadium 2
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Island Melee [singles only - rather small for doubles, so Spear Pillar is a better doubles starter]
Norfair [singles only - could work for doubles but Rumble Falls is a better doubles starter]
Rumble Falls [doubles only]
Spear Pillar [doubles only]

Counterpicks:
Jungle Japes
Spear Pillar [is double starter]
Warioware
Metal Cavern [singles only]
Rumble Falls [is doubles starter]
Norfair [is singles starter]
Frigate Orpheon
Skyworld
Lavender Town
Congo Jungle 64
Halberd
1337M
Mario Kingdom [arguably only for doubles]
Temple
Delfino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise [hey, it's been legal in big Melee and Brawl tourneys...]
Pokémon Stadium 1
Dream Greens
Peach's Castle N64, Bowser version (hold R I believe)
Castle Siege (I'm iffy on this one, even in a generous list - the lack of a floor on the second transformation irritates me...)
New Pork City [doubles only]
Yoshi's Island Melee [not sure if it's really big enough for doubles... but it might work]

This is my idealized stage list, from my opinions only:

Spoiler: My ideal list

Neutrals:
Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
Stadium 2
[strikes in a 1-2-1-1-1 format - P1 gets 1, P2 gets 2, P1 gets 1, P2 gets 1, P1 gets last strike]

CPs:
Halberd
Peach's Castle N64, Bowser mode
Yoshi's Story Melee
Fountain of Dreams
Rumble Falls
Skyworld
Congo Jungle 64
Delfino Plaza
Warioware
Lavender Town

Test CPs:
Temple
Mario Kingdom
Metal Cavern (only Singles)
Lavender Town (only singles)
New Pork City (only doubles)
Huge Yoshi's (with block train) (only doubles)
[test because I have heard they have issues with some playstyles/size, but I'm not sure how bad it is]

 

[Neville]

Delfino is fine because the transformations that have problems are temporary (you don't have to play around them for a whole match). While it's not a starter, I think leaving it legal as a CP (at least for now) is perfectly fine.

Unless we want a really small stage list, in which case, ban it.

This would be a limited but good stage list (in my opinion) if we're looking for a very small stage list:

Spoiler

Neutrals:
Smashville
Battlefield
Pokémon Stadium 2

CPs:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl stage)
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Norfair

That's about it for a limited stage list, and I think Norfair could be replaced by some stages, but I don't know if FoD or Yoshi's Melee would be a better replacement for it (assumes Norfair will return).

MegaSaturn99 I think some people call wavedashing straight down "Wavestalling" because you do the action that would normally perform a wavedash but you stay still. I don't know that for a fact though.

Glyph, I think Yoshi's Story Melee is less questionable than Jungle Japes, but that's a personal thing. Also, Lavaville should probably be banned in my opinion. I really think Norfair would be a fantastic CP or neutral if it was added [the three platform, zero-hazards one that was in with the stage expansion pack originally]. Metal Cavern is also probably a CP stage, especially if it gets a slight horizontal blastzone expansion - while ROB may not like small stages, it's not a reason to ban the stage (I'm just kidding about the ROB = you saying ban it, but that stage is perfectly fine as a CP - small size is not a reason to ban the stage). I feel like I should know of some other stage that would be on here (Peach's Castle N64 Bowser maybe?) but I don't have the game on right now so I can't say more. Also, how is Lavender Town fine but Metal Cavern isn't?

Also Lylat Cruise would be neutral if we had a 7th stage so each side can strike 3, but I don't know what that neutral would be - I'd nominate Yoshi's Melee or FoD but I don't think you'd like those.

Also, either make Spear Pillar fun again or put it on the CP list - banning it and not having Dialga do freaky awesome stuff every 10 seconds is a waste of a stage in my opinion.

If people wanted a large stage list, this would be a large, generous (but still rather fair) stage list:

Spoiler

Neutrals:
Smashville
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Lylat Cruise
Stadium 2
Norfair [singles only - could work for doubles but Rumble Falls is a better doubles starter]
Rumble Falls [doubles only]

Counterpicks:
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Island Melee (either of the above could be swapped with Norfair if needed) [arguably only for singles]
Jungle Japes
Spear Pillar
Warioware
Metal Cavern [singles only]
Rumble Falls [is doubles starter]
Norfair [is singles starter]
Frigate Orpheon
Skyworld
Lavender Town
Congo Jungle 64
Halberd
1337M
Mario Kingdom [arguably only for doubles]
Temple
Delfino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise [hey, it's been legal in big Melee and Brawl tourneys...]
Pokémon Stadium 1
Dream Greens
Peach's Castle N64, Bowser version (hold R I believe)
Castle Siege (I'm iffy on this one, even in a generous list - the lack of a floor on the second transformation irritates me...)
New Pork City [doubles only]

This is my idealized stage list, from my opinions only:

Spoiler: My ideal list

Neutrals:
Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
Stadium 2
[strikes in a 1-2-1-1-1 format - P1 gets 1, P2 gets 2, P1 gets 1, P2 gets 1, P1 gets last strike]

CPs:
Halberd
Peach's Castle N64, Bowser mode
Yoshi's Story Melee
Fountain of Dreams
Rumble Falls
Skyworld
Congo Jungle 64
Delfino Plaza
Warioware
Lavender Town

Test CPs:
Temple
Mario Kingdom
Metal Cavern (only Singles)
Lavender Town (only singles)
New Pork City (only doubles)
Huge Yoshi's (with block train) (only doubles)
[test because I have heard they have issues with some playstyles, but I'm not sure how bad it is]

It is wave stalling. The term slipped my mind and I pulled something outta my ass. In the small stage list why is FD a CP?

 

[Thor]

It is wave stalling. The term slipped my mind and I pulled something outta my ass. In the small stage list why is FD a CP?

Well, describing inputs is a perfectly fine way to describe something - if I hadn't met someone like 2 weeks ago who told me that wavedashing in place is wavestalling I wouldn't have known either, but I was able to visualize exactly what you meant.

And yes, some people I know who are very skilled in Melee [and Brawl] feel no platforms = bad as a starter, or even a CP (ICs = infinites - I know some people in my area feel Brinstar is better than FD for Melee and Brawl because of how polarizing it can be) [though infinites are gone so this problem is mitigated], so I added PS 2 (generally considered a good stage - two platforms but otherwise like FD) as a starter instead of a CP. It could also easily be switched around of course, I just know that some people hate FD for various reasons ("Free win" for M2K or whatever) so I put in stages with platforms only as starters. If so, swap PS 2 and FD in the lists - then the starters are more diverse but still perfectly usable. It could also be 5 starters and 2 CPs, but I felt 3 and 4 would be more fitting for a small list.

In small stage list idea, each player gets 1 ban. In "my ideal" stage list, I think each player should get 2-4 bans (probably 3, but 4 might be reasonable). In the large stage list, I don't think 7 would be too many, but I'm not sure [that would ban about a quarter of the stages, but there are a TON more to choose from...].

Also, should've noted that Warioware and Lavender Town are arguably only for singles, given the tiny sizes of each. And just so you know MegaSaturn99, I modified the lists slightly, so that the small has 3 starters and 4 CPs [unchanged], the one I'd like has 7 starters and 10 CPs (and like 6 test CPs since I don't have a fully final list yet), and the big one has 9 starters and something like 16 CPs.

Any feedback on the lists is appreciated - keep in mind that each list was made with a philosophy in mind (the small was for small stage lists, focused on why that's good, the large was for large stage lists and why that's good, and the third was mine, based on my own experiences, preferences, and beliefs), so if you like large stagelists of course the first one will seem way too small.

EDIT: Jeez I use the word "Also" a lot without realizing it... speaking/typing tick to fix.

 

[Glyph]

Wait for the next patch before you worry about legal stages again, whenever that comes around