I have been toying with making this post for a long time, and its starting to come up in multiple threads so I figured I'd just finally get something put down.

I'm going to put modesty aside and say something some people will probably roll their eyes at, but at the moment I consider myself the best ROB on the site, and one of the best players in brawl minus in general. I really really hate having to play that card, but my opinions are not coming from a place of bias or inexperience; I've played ROB at levels most people were completely unaware existed.

That doucheyness aside, I want to say ROB is not broken. ROB is not even in need of nerfs. The problem is next to no one has ANY experience against a ROB who plays the way I do. There's a reason the complains about ROB prior to my playing online were 'his fair hits into itself' and 'his multilaser is pretty dumb (a point I actually raised) and now you can't turn a corner without hearing about how ROB is S Tier.

The biggest problem currently standing in this community is not knowing where to DI against ROB. Case in point, take a look at some of my early games against our good friend Bent, the best Falcon player I've seen thus far. - This is one of our first games, in fact in might BE the first time my ROB faced off against his Falcon. If ROB was truly S Tier, this game would have been a bloodbath. I would have been able to shut down every one of Falcon's approaches, every attack would have combo'd into death, every recovery would have been a success without any issues.

But that's not how that game goes. His instincts on how to play against a ranged character were on the money, he rushed down in my openings, kept pressure on me. Even my 'for sure win' laser at the end damn near doesn't do the trick. I rematched Bent later on after giving him some ideas on how to better combat a stupid robot, and while I still managed to keep my head above water he took me to last stock last hit on a NUMBER of occasions. If I were to sit down in person and play against Bent, within a week his Falcon would be going even with my ROB. Easy. Same thing applies to a number of people I've played online, like Gum's Jiggs and owo's Ganon. That not mentioning I've lost to Lucario countless times, and Wolf/Sheik/D3 at times as well.

The whole point I'm trying to make here is that you shouldn't lose games to a character and then dismiss that character as broken, you should strive to be even MORE broken that that character is. I will NEVER forget the first time Bent landed a down throw to double knee combo and I said 'wow that was goddamn broken'. But I didn't, I learned to watch out for Falcon's grabs and to DI up and away from Falcon when he's chasing you. When you watch replays of me playing against Poo and Jomo you will almost never see me land any of those chains of attacks where I carry someone offscreen with a wave of nairs or fairs, because they know EXACTLY where to DI it to prevent my followups. And spoiler, its not that my brother and friend just happen to be the best smashers in the world, they just have put in the time to know the matchup.

And I really hope you guys do too.

Ok, that's not as concise as I would have liked but I think I hit all the major points. I still stand saying if I see a ROB playing as well as I do against someone who knows that matchup I would happily see him in S Tier, but that hasn't happened yet. I've recorded and documented support for my argument and am more than happy to upload any other ROBs out there as well, or just to play on wifi with them. I honestly feel like my ROB has stagnated at this point so anyone who could show me something new would be my hero.

Because I'm not stupid, I want to also open the floor to you guys proposed ROB nerfs. I REALLY don't think they're needed OR deserved, but when I watch some of the games I've played its not at all hard to understand why the call is there. In a perfect world I'd like to see ROB changed, not nerfed. Something I saw Newb point out was that ROB's extra jumps give him a lot of aerial mobility to follow up on attacks, which is absolutely right. Its not unbeatable, but against someone who's not expecting a rush it often spells death. But removing the extra jumps also puts ROB back at his vBrawl recovery, and that's just not brawl minus. My proposed solution to this problem would be to remove ROB's extra jumps and instead give him a significantly larger fuel tank for his up-b. This CHANGES ROB, but it doesn't necessarily make him any worse. It closes the aerial chase game, but opens up a much meaner offstage and hover options. I'd really like to hear some specific complaints about ROB from you guys, and I'll suggest something that I think would remove that complaint without drastically killing ROB's viability.

Sorry for the rambling post guys, hope you can see where I'm coming from!


Well-Known Member
I don't even know what to with rob anymore. I think I need to fight you more glyph. I'll try to DI against you and see where that goes.

One issue right there is that I think newer players might've devaluing the advantages of DI. The reason is because many attacks in minus true combo regardless of DI. I know that when I started, I pretty much stopped DIing against people because I assumed that I was helpless.
I still don't DI enough,

I do understand where you are coming from. I main link and insist that he isn't broken. I'll probably do my own thread for him.


Link is also not broken for sure. Great character, but not impossible to beat with spacing.

DIing is the biggest thing I've seen that the people I've played could improve on. You know what happens with you don't DI?

That happens. Not to put him on the spot, but watch the angles he comes off of my attacks on. They're all identical every time, and anything that hits him upwards hits him STRAIGHT upwards. This makes stringing moves together an absolute breeze, while smart DI will not only keep you safe but open up your opponent when they miss you.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Hey, thanks for the praise, Glyph! I look forward to taking on that ROB again soon - I'll win against it eventually!

I'll hold off on posting much about ROB until I get a few more matches against it in. In general, though, I don't think he's broken. Just one of the best characters; lots of strengths, combos, and safe moves, but few weaknesses. Kinda like Snake was in vBrawl.

Here's that useful advice Glyph posted about fighting ROB: ... #pid161500


Well-Known Member
Congrats Bent!

That match doesn't really prove a point, but it was an awesome match!

I also want to try out some characters against rob.


It doesn't alone, but watch the whole set. Count the lasers I hit that couldn't have been teched out of. Count the number of times my fair combos into itself.

ROB ain't broken, ROB ain't S Tier.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Just finished playing against Glyph's ROB again. Man, couldn't even defeat it once this time... It's usually pretty close when I fight his Kirby or Pokemon trio, but that ROB is near unstoppable. I tried using Captain Falcon, Zelda, and Ganondorf (ha), and Zelda seemed to fare slightly better this time. Guess I'll post a few thoughts about the old robot now.

- It's got so. Many. Options! And the speed to use them all. No matter where you are on the screen, nowhere is safe!
- It's really hard to escape from a chain of F-Airs that carry you off the stage. I tried using DI in different directions to no avail. Trying to DI up, down, or past ROB back toward the stage doesn't seem to work at all, and I barely get the chance to try DI towards the blast zone before I'm KO'd. I can't think of any other aerial in the game that links into itself this well.
- ROB's D-Tilt is too easy to spam, and it racks up damage quickly. It's safe to throw out often.
- ROB's Down Smash is very hard to punish when missed. You can't sidestep dodge it because it lasts too long, and you can't shield-grab it because it pushes you away. All you can do is roll or stay far enough away. At least make it possible to shield-grab it!
- Does ROB's Side-B really need to be able to reflect projectiles, now that it can be cancelled? Reflective properties removed in Brawl Minus MAX 3.5.
- An on-stage B-Air seems to combo into a Fully-Charged laser KO often. A little too often.
- Samus lost the "paralyze" effect on her high-level charged shot, so why does ROB's fully-charged laser still have it? Overkill.
- It's almost impossible to avoid both of the Gyros ROB can have on stage at once. It's much more reliable to shield them than to try to dodge them, but then ROB just gets one back immediately. The Gyros have excellent knockback and KO potential too. Definitely the best projectile in the game.
- Glyph says ROB's weak spots are directly below him and at 10 & 2 o' clock, which seems true, but ROB sure is able to guard those weaknesses well. It never needs to be above you on-stage, only off-stage, and then you're usually too busy trying to recover. As for 10 & 2 o' clock, it can't attack you as well in those positions, but not many characters attack well from those positions, either.

I now think that ROB is S Tier along with Lucario, against my mains at least. It has very effective tools for any situation, and its weaknesses are easy for it to guard. I'd like to see some changes to ROB, like removing its third jump and/or adding a drawback to the Gyros. Perhaps make it so that only one can be out at a time, or make it so they don't vanish when shielded, or make them only usable so often. You should be able to sidestep dodge or shield-grab ROB's Down Smash, and it should be easier to escape a chain of F-Airs.

Glyph and I have spent a similar amount of time playing Brawl, though he is more used to online play than I am. Still, I've faced his ROB around 20 times now, and I've only managed to win twice. Here's how I estimate my mains' chances against his ROB for now:

Captain Falcon 10 < 90 ROB
Ganondorf 0 < 100 ROB
Zelda 20 < 80 ROB

ROB is crazy good. I think it would be easier to bring him down a bit rather than bring everyone else up to his level.
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Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
BTW, to give a bit of perspective:

Glyph's ROB is the only character/player combo I've been unable to beat consistently. His Ivysaur is tough too, but I'm confident that I can at least go 50/50 against everyone else (except a really good Lucario main, maybe).

ROB, though? Seems like only a few characters stand a chance against it as-is, and that's why I say it's S Tier.


Well-Known Member
Olimar and I think dedede check rob well. Faster characters also have some chance against him. Mostly other high tier characters stand a chance. Most of them don't though. He is second to lucario, but not s tier.


Its really driving me crazy to see all this speculation and calls for nerfs on ROB when I could have just stayed offline and never had it be and issue. Until another ROB even comes CLOSE to my skill level, this is a nerf to ME, not ROB. ROB as a character is not inherently broken. He is no doubt a good character, mid to high A Tier at the lowest, but a lot of that comes from the techniques I have used and perfected with him.

Have you considered that... maybe I'm just insanely good with ROB? I'm not exactly new to the competitive scene. Look me up on smashboards. I've done it all, I'm a back room member, I'm a former moderator, I'm a member since 2006. I learned to play this game against people like Dabuz and Salem (who won Apex last year). Playing good people will make you a good player in turn.

I have put a ridiculous amount of time and energy into learning my character. Nerfing ROB solely for my sake is literally saying 'yeah but you got too good and now its hard for US to win so we're going to make you worse'. That will continue to be the case until there is another ROB player who is beating people as severely as I am. Newb posted a few replays of his ROB, and the difference is night and day. I don't want to imply his ROB was bad; it was anything but! But its also literal leagues away from mine. Bent's Falcon would stomp it into the dirt, same with Jomo's Lucario and Poo's D3/Sheik/Wolf.

You CANNOT base a character's merits off one player. You just can't, that's not a valid argument. Its impossible to distinguish the player's skill from the character's inherent advantages.

So here's the deal. If you want to prove ROB is broken, pick him up. Learn him. Get stupid good with him too. You've got a whole youtube channel showing you how to do it, and once you win as consistently as I do then I won't have any substance to my argument and will wholeheartedly support ROB nerfs. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as aggressive with this post, but I can't help but read the call for nerfs as an insult to my abilities as a player and that doesn't sit well with me.


Well-Known Member
Man, what a mess this is. Can we get dev input please? I don't even know who is right, or who is wrong. Now this is getting personal when it wasn't intended to. I agree that people need to pick up rob and learn him before we do something drastic. We got discussions on both forums now. We need to bring this to a close.


A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Lucky for you Glyph We were only planning on a single nerf to ROB anyway, with a maximum number of 2 nerfs.

Nerf 1 is that his Nair was never intended to hit foes upward.
The possible second nerf would be to his laser. But that isn't decided yet.


Iiiiiinteresting. I can work with nair hitting in a different direction, so long as you don't take away its overall power as ROB's kill move.

Here's a few other changes I've suggested/agree with from the other forum. What's your thoughts on them?

-Remove/cut the time of the stun on the laser. As it is, landing a laser is a free hit unless you happen to somehow trade hits with ROB. Now I, of course, love this. But I can see the frustration behind it. I would happily see this go in turn for a slight increase in knockback.

-Make the gyro bounce of the shield instead of going away. Having the gyro be destroyed on impact just gives the gyro back to ROB, which means I can abuse its short charge time and high power on initial shot. Making this change allows ROB to keep his gyro game while limiting its spamminess, while also opening up more options for ROB using the gyro on the stage.

-Remove the reflect on ROB's side-b. Instead, substitute in some light heavy armor (lol light heavy). This allows people like Ganon who rely on one big projectile to still have the option to use it without being instantly punished for massive damage, AND letting ROB keep it as his go to approach move. I'm not sure exactly at what percentage I'd draw the line on this, but I would ideally like it to be enough that you'd need something on par with a smash attack or samus's missiles to knock him out of it.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker

Glyph, I've probably played Falcon as much as you've played ROB. The fact that I could only win against ROB as Falcon once out of all those matches tells me that ROB has a definite advantage. Our connection is low-lag, and I've gotten used to playing online again. I estimate that 60% of the time your ROB would 2-stock me, and 40% of the time you'd 3-stock me. My Zelda has had slightly better chances so far, but Ganondorf just gets stomped, and I've played him a long time.

I think that ROB has some OP cheapness going on, and I suggested some changes to consider. If you think about what I suggested, they're not that drastic, and make his moves more balanced. The main things of ROB's that seem cheap to me are:

- The laser's paralyze effect
- Side B's ability to reflect (cancellable or reflective, pick one)
- Gyros disappearing when shielded
- Down Smash being so safe (can't sidestep it OR shield-grab it)
- F-Air chains being so hard to get out of (how exactly does anyone DI out of it?!)

Glyph, none of that seems OP to you? You've agreed about the Gyros and the laser's paralyze effect, but you want a buff somewhere else if they take that away, when ROB needs no buffs. I like your idea about removing its third jump, but increasing its fuel tank size a bit.

I wish you played another character as much as you play ROB. If you could beat me as consistently with that character as you do with ROB, then I could see it being a skill gap. As-is, though, ROB seems to have a definite advantage in our matches. In Minus, you're the best ROB and I'm the best Falcon, and we both have similar experience - I should have come much closer to going even against you by now, but I haven't because ROB the character is on a higher level. It and Lucario need to be brought down to a point where at least the A Tiers can go even with them.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Seriously, how does anyone DI out of ROB's F-Air chains? And how do you punish ROB's ground game? It's really safe for ROB.


Watch my replays and watch my games against Poo and Jomo (especially Jomo). You'll see where you should be DIing to.

And I completely agree. Remember when I first posted my tier list? I had falcon way way down on it, because I was a ROB main and I knew ROB SHUTS DOWN Falcon. Took me a while to adapt to your approaches, but once I realized I could sit in shield through your whole falcon kick and whatever single aerial you followed up with, then roll away and punish I really took off. Ganon is just a slower version of Falcon in many ways, which means ROB will beat him even harder.

Something neat about ROB is I can play him very different ways against different people. Last night I did something a little differently than I normally do; I played a passive ROB. Normally I do a lot of side-bs into Fairs to pressure and then follow from there, instead I just sat and shot gyros/lasers at you and waited for you to approach. And things went a lot more in my favor. That's not a skill difference, thats a character matchup.

I think you should pick up Olimar. I am TERRIFIED of a good Olimar, to the point I've recently picked him up in an effort to better learn his strengths so I'll be able to play against him more effectively.

So my advice at this point is: don't play Falcon against ROB. Focus on Zelda. A piece of advice I think will help a lot is that I'm abusing the fact that your Zelda has nothing to protect her from a 45 degree angle. Use your up angled ftilt when you think I'm going to try something like that, it'll shut down my approach. I've seen you use your down angled one several times, but never the up.

I've already touched on the majority of the nerfs you'd like to see implemented, and agree with all except the d-smash and fair chains. Fair chain is a big part of who ROB is, even going back to vBrawl. Characters like Falcon get ruined by that, but a lot of others get through it no problem. Same thing with his d-smash, its just really good. Always has been, even at its base level. Making it WORSE than vBrawl would be really dumb, and go against everything Minus stands against. Not only that, but I'd say its no worse than other d-smashes that function in a similar way (ala pikachu or Peach).

tl;dr: ROB beats Falcon because ROB has a great matchup against a guy that loses to projectiles and is easily gimped. Not because ROB is broken.

EDIT: Forgot to reply to a point of yours. No, I don't think anything ROB currently has is OP. Not a single thing. If it was, I would be able to do it to everyone, consistently. But it doesn't work on Lucario. Or Sheik. Or D3. Or Wolf. Its a matter of knowing how to react to them. They're great moves, but not unstoppable or even unpunishable.


Well-Known Member
I haven't figured out the fairs.

I don't think you should approach rob. he has to attack with side b or projectiles. Gotta punish him when he whifss side b. I think.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Well, I've said what I wanted to say about ROB. It's up to the devs from here.

BTW, Glyph, good Olimar last time. I'm glad to see he's getting attention now. Gotta watch out for those Up-B KOs!

Thanks for the advice, as usual.

I'm interested in sparring against good Lucarios, D3s, and Sheiks now.


NEWB said:
I haven't figured out the fairs.

I don't think you should approach rob. he has to attack with side b or projectiles. Gotta punish him when he whifss side b. I think.

ROB is usually limited to just the gyro game too. If you get a chance, pick one up! Be careful, if you do it wrong it'll hit you a few times and the second I see someone mess up that pick up its an invitation to rush in and smack them. But being able to hold onto one means ROB is stuck with a single gyro, and if you can stay away from that one he's forced to approach you himself or burn his laser charge and try to catch you out. Just be ready for the laser, watch for his head to tilt back.


I haven't read much on this topic yet since I haven't gotten the time, but if I were to be honest about ROB, I just think that his Paralyzing laser is the only thing that NEEDS to go.

I don't play online, and I'm not necessarily familiar with any of you, but I have a group of friends I introduced to Minus long ago, and we religiously play it every Friday, and one of those friends main ROB.

Now, I don't have much of a problem with most other characters, none of us are obsessive on the idea of competitive Smash so we don't look much into the integrity of the fighting system, but nonetheless we're what I would consider about average players.
Our ROB main on the other hand usually has to force himself to play other characters, since literally none of us can beat his ROB. Besides him, most of us can beat each other most of the time in a pretty fair fight using a rather diverse cast of mains and secondaries..
The only exception of course, is ROB and my friend's absolutely ridiculous ability to aim his laser which 100% of the time results in a KO against a group of 5 other players that STILL HAVE YET to have a victory over him.. yea.