Official Tier List Creation

[Kymaera K1ng]

Hello everyone! Brawl Minus has yet to have an official tier list like every other game, so we might as well start now! I've created a tier list that I think is pretty accurate, but I'm not to sure, and I'm very open to changing it. Keep in mind that tiers have been ordered and are most likely wrong. Include reasoning for each change you make/request or it will be ignored. I'll update the list in a comment below as we go. Please refrain from adding your own new lists to the thread as opposed to editing the OP. We've tried this before, and it hasn't worked.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Current Proposed Tier List:

Editable Version: bminus==S|0|29|26|22|31|32|21==A+|1|3|16|28|25|8|12|23|43==A|2|34|37|19|30|1|33|7|2|14|36==A-|3|39|41|5|9|24|11|18==B+|4|42|40|4|15|6|17==B|5|13|35|27|38|10|20

Tiers are ordered.

 

[Mawootad]

Pichu should probably be S tier. Great combo potential, able to score some extremely early kills, and a low dash profile that makes a lot of stuff just not work against him. Has very few negative matchups and a lot of massively positive matchups, including probably the best Falco matchup in Minus.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Pichu should probably be S tier. Great combo potential, able to score some extremely early kills, and a low dash profile that makes a lot of stuff just not work against him. Has very few negative matchups and a lot of massively positive matchups, including probably the best Falco matchup in Minus.

Yeah, your probably right. Mostly I put him in A tier because I haven't really seen anyone use him. Also do you have any input on ordering the tiers?

 

[Mimsy]

Instead of detailing each one, I'll just put this here for now and answer any questions later

This was a joint tier list between me and Ludacario. (We did dispute over Bowser, so he is still open for discussion) I think he's better, Luda says worse.

 

[AGentleStar]

View attachment 255
Instead of detailing each one, I'll just put this here for now and answer any questions later

This was a joint tier list between me and Ludacario. (We did dispute over Bowser, so he is still open for discussion) I think he's better, Luda says worse.

"Wow. This tier list is unbelieveably bad. ___ should definitaly be S rank at LEAST! Your insane to think that ____ would be anything higher than C rank. bad matchups and shitty framdata. They are garbo teir."

-- Every Commentor's reaction to any Minus Tier list

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

View attachment 255
Instead of detailing each one, I'll just put this here for now and answer any questions later

This was a joint tier list between me and Ludacario. (We did dispute over Bowser, so he is still open for discussion) I think he's better, Luda says worse.

I'm actually trying to avoid this situation... Please use the tier list in the OP as a base, then describe changes. If everyone proposed there own list, we'd get no we, just like the other treads. Mawootad's post is what I'm looking for in this thread.

"Wow. This tier list is unbelieveably bad. ___ should definitaly be S rank at LEAST! Your insane to think that ____ would be anything higher than C rank. bad matchups and shitty framdata. They are garbo teir."

-- Every Commentor's reaction to any Minus Tier list

I'm trying really hard to get everyone to make changes to the OP so we avoid this unlike last time...

 

[Bent 00]

The Tier List by Mimsy and Ludacario should be the new base list in the second post.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

The Tier List by Mimsy and Ludacario should be the new base list in the second post.

OK, give me a bit

I tried to merge the lists to the best of my ability, but I used as much on Mimsy'd list as I felt was accurate based on the info from the other threads and such.

Mimsy, why did you put Charizard so high? I never get to play against him so I really don't know...

 

[Thor]

These types of threads almost make me want to boot up Wi-Fi or something, but then I remember everyone is on Netplay and setting up my Wii would take effort.

I've never faced a good Pichu so I have no opinion. Fox nerfs means he probably ended up lower on the list, but I didn't realize he'd be *that* much worse. I find ZSS below GnW hilarious but I don't know how much GnW's stuff is actually good like you guys rate and how much is RNG/jank [whereas ZSS is absolutely a solid character] (I do know the only effective way I found to edgeguard GnW was Ganondorf down+b, but that doing so was almost effortless).

I was gonna say I have no idea why Roy and Charizard are so high, but I forgot Roy had so many buffs, and while I'm unclear on if Charizard's fair redesign is a buff or nerf, it would appear he was treated well. But again, I have no practical application with these characters.

I think 8 of the 10 or so characters below Bowser could be moved above him, but I've been out of it for a while [I remember uair -> rest was a thing again, but not nearly as free as it was in like 2.X.6, and I don't believe Link is anywhere near *that* bad, never mind that Kirby must have been gutted more badly than I thought in 4.0B to have fallen to bottom tier...], so I'll just hold my peace.

My only real remark here is that I find it funny that Link is so low when he definitely beats Peach and probably beats some of the other slow characters handily. But I suppose he might struggle a fair bit with some of those other high/top tiers...

I appreciate things being lettered from S to B instead of S to D or some nonsense like that.

 

[player_03]

Mimsy, why did you put Charizard so high? I never get to play against him so I really don't know...

The new side-B is a big part of it. It's fast and it travels a long distance, making it great for pushing enemies off the side. (Charizard already had up-B as an early kill option, but that doesn't link as well.) Since it's repeatable and can snap to the ledge, it's equally good for recovering. Finally, it has armor around halfway through, giving Charizard a way to approach through projectiles.

Speaking of recovering, Charizard has four midair jumps, a glide that accelerates to ridiculous speeds, side-B, and an armored up-B that goes higher than Mr. Game and Watch's.

The new fair may not do much damage, but it has high base knockback, making it another early kill option. You have to go offstage to kill with it, but Charizard can go super deep without any trouble. Plus, it's a large hitbox that lingers and stays strong the whole time.

Then there's Stealth Rock, one of the better stage control tools in the game. Charizard can throw opponents towards the rocks to extend its combos, or it can DI towards the rocks to save itself from a follow-up. If Charizard's opponent reflects the rocks, Charizard can just make a new set, instantly destroying the reflected rocks.

Finally, nair comes out on frame 4, dealing 15% damage and decent knockback, with range comparable to bair. You can use it out of shield, you can use it as a reverse aerial rush, and you can use it to get back onstage. (Drop off the ledge, turn around by jumping away from the stage, then nair to hit anyone waiting above the ledge. This isn't 100% safe, but it's far safer than fair.)

 

[Bent 00]

Can we call Charizard's Down-Special "Rock Smash+" or something other than "Stealth Rock"?

None of the Char line can learn Stealth Rock canonically IIRC. That move is actually one of 'Zards' biggest weaknesses in the Pokemon games.

On-topic, I don't think Pichu is S-Rank, even as-is in 4.0BC.

Pichu, S-Rank... What is the world coming to...

 

[Pin Clock]

It's called Stealth Rock because both the function of the move and because it's ironic.

Also if we are talking about moves Pokemon can't even learn in Smash, there are a lot of those.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I've never faced a good Pichu so I have no opinion. Fox nerfs means he probably ended up lower on the list, but I didn't realize he'd be *that* much worse. I find ZSS below GnW hilarious but I don't know how much GnW's stuff is actually good like you guys rate and how much is RNG/jank [whereas ZSS is absolutely a solid character] (I do know the only effective way I found to edgeguard GnW was Ganondorf down+b, but that doing so was almost effortless).

In the current suggested Tier list, ZSS is above GnW. Also how did you edgeguard GnW with Gannon's Down-B?

I was gonna say I have no idea why Roy and Charizard are so high, but I forgot Roy had so many buffs, and while I'm unclear on if Charizard's fair redesign is a buff or nerf, it would appear he was treated well. But again, I have no practical application with these characters.

Roy and Charizard both received buffs which covered a lot of their bad matchups from 4.0b.

I think 8 of the 10 or so characters below Bowser could be moved above him, but I've been out of it for a while [I remember uair -> rest was a thing again, but not nearly as free as it was in like 2.X.6, and I don't believe Link is anywhere near *that* bad, never mind that Kirby must have been gutted more badly than I thought in 4.0B to have fallen to bottom tier...], so I'll just hold my peace.

I honestly think Bowser sucks, and he'll probably move down in the future. I can definitely say Puff isn't the worst character in the game, her punish game and neutral are way to good for that. Up air rest is a thing, but rest kills later so you have to link more up airs. I don't know anything about Link and Kirby to be honest.

My only real remark here is that I find it funny that Link is so low when he definitely beats Peach and probably beats some of the other slow characters handily. But I suppose he might struggle a fair bit with some of those other high/top tiers...

I think Link is kinda like Ike from brawl, where he struggles with some top tiers but flat out beats some others.

The new side-B is a big part of it. It's fast and it travels a long distance, making it great for pushing enemies off the side. (Charizard already had up-B as an early kill option, but that doesn't link as well.) Since it's repeatable and can snap to the ledge, it's equally good for recovering. Finally, it has armor around halfway through, giving Charizard a way to approach through projectiles.

Speaking of recovering, Charizard has four midair jumps, a glide that accelerates to ridiculous speeds, side-B, and an armored up-B that goes higher than Mr. Game and Watch's.

The new fair may not do much damage, but it has high base knockback, making it another early kill option. You have to go offstage to kill with it, but Charizard can go super deep without any trouble. Plus, it's a large hitbox that lingers and stays strong the whole time.

Then there's Stealth Rock, one of the better stage control tools in the game. Charizard can throw opponents towards the rocks to extend its combos, or it can DI towards the rocks to save itself from a follow-up. If Charizard's opponent reflects the rocks, Charizard can just make a new set, instantly destroying the reflected rocks.

Finally, nair comes out on frame 4, dealing 15% damage and decent knockback, with range comparable to bair. You can use it out of shield, you can use it as a reverse aerial rush, and you can use it to get back onstage. (Drop off the ledge, turn around by jumping away from the stage, then nair to hit anyone waiting above the ledge. This isn't 100% safe, but it's far safer than fair.)

Ok... That's pretty damn good... I guess no one around here actually plays Charizard, so I didn't even know about half this stuff. Given this, Would placing him in-between Dedede and Wario be accurate?

I don't think Pichu is S-Rank, even as-is in 4.0BC... Pichu, S-Rank... What is the world coming to...

Look at Mawootad's post. I'm not to sure about Pichu, so ask him instead lol

 

[Mimsy]

Looking back, I do agree I need to change the lettering to include some A-'s, B-'s, etc. because what separates the tiers from each other is not signifigant enough to go from S to D, and this was not my original intent. When I get home, I will make a detailed list explaining my placements. However, the meta has changed in the past few months, seeing more top level play examples, so any preconceived notions on Fox, charizard, Roy, link, etc. are not applicable. This is not a passive aggressive tier list by any means, and we tried to eliminate any and all bias by doing this together. I do believe, like bent, that this is the most accurate tier list so far. (But am still skeptic on where Bowser belongs in B tier)

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Looking back, I do agree I need to change the lettering to include some A-'s, B-'s, etc. because what separates the tiers from each other is not signifigant enough to go from S to D, and this was not my original intent. When I get home, I will make a detailed list explaining my placements. However, the meta has changed in the past few months, seeing more top level play examples, so any preconceived notions on Fox, charizard, Roy, link, etc. are not applicable. This is not a passive aggressive tier list by any means, and we tried to eliminate any and all bias by doing this together. I do believe, like bent, that this is the most accurate tier list so far. (But am still skeptic on where Bowser belongs in B tier)

We used your list as a base then adjusted it, so edit the suggested one instead.

 

[Mimsy]

We used your list as a base then adjusted it, so edit the suggested one instead.

Will do

 

[Dusk]

Roy and Charizard both received buffs which covered a lot of their bad matchups from 4.0b.

I disagree, the buffs Roy received were not that significant except for up smash. He got a few frames skinned off of his aerials, whether it was for ending or landing lag. His upsmash got touched up, which needs tweaking. His f-throw was altered which I can't remember if it makes it easier or harder to chain grab with and his up throw was changed I can't remember how significant the difference is between this version and 4.0B. Also for whatever reason his up b became a more consistent kill move, which was unnecessary imo. He was good before he just got minor touchups on his offensive game. He still suffers from the momentum bug, like many other characters, so he can still just get dragged off stage and not really have a chance to retaliate due to his side b not going anywhere until after a couple of frames or if he has a jump.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I disagree, the buffs Roy received were not that significant except for up smash. He got a few frames skinned off of his aerials, whether it was for ending or landing lag. His upsmash got touched up, which needs tweaking. His f-throw was altered which I can't remember if it makes it easier or harder to chain grab with and his up throw was changed I can't remember how significant the difference is between this version and 4.0B. Also for whatever reason his up b became a more consistent kill move, which was unnecessary imo. He was good before he just got minor touchups on his offensive game. He still suffers from the momentum bug, like many other characters, so he can still just get dragged off stage and not really have a chance to retaliate due to his side b not going anywhere until after a couple of frames or if he has a jump.

up throw has less kbg, making combos possible later on. Forward throw chain grab can't be DI'd away anymore, and the up special change helps him against floaties. He was already good, these changes still help tho. The momentum bug is still just as dumb.

 

[Thor]

In the current suggested Tier list, ZSS is above GnW. Also how did you edgeguard GnW with Gannon's Down-B?

I read the list Mimsy posted instead of the one you posted [that was my error].

For GnW, if he is trying to ride the wall, you run at the edge, reverse aerial rush fulljump [I think you can shorthop too, but I'd usually full jump], and down+b. He can tech this version [usually], but it does meteor smash him so he has to be extremely fast on a meteor cancel [and if Brawl Minus has a meteor cancel delay, due to his light weight and the meteor's extreme power, it can KO him outright].

If he can't ride the wall, you don't reverse aerial rush, and instead do it so you basically graze the edge as you go past it.

This seems to nearly always beat up+b, and can KO him at very early percents [even for GnW]. The only way he can get around this [that I've seen] besides teching the move is to recover high [i.e., not to the ledge], but Ganondorf can jump out there with uair/bair/fair/side+B to cover this pretty safely [side+b is less safe obviously, but with a well-timed cancel, he'll get an early KO there too].

[You probably don't need to RAR and can just b-reverse the move I'd assume (I think that's a thing?), but I usually just RAR when I need it because I like RAR as an option and it's pretty easy to do.]

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I read the list Mimsy posted instead of the one you posted [that was my error].

For GnW, if he is trying to ride the wall, you run at the edge, reverse aerial rush fulljump [I think you can shorthop too, but I'd usually full jump], and down+b. He can tech this version [usually], but it does meteor smash him so he has to be extremely fast on a meteor cancel [and if Brawl Minus has a meteor cancel delay, due to his light weight and the meteor's extreme power, it can KO him outright].

If he can't ride the wall, you don't reverse aerial rush, and instead do it so you basically graze the edge as you go past it.

This seems to nearly always beat up+b, and can KO him at very early percents [even for GnW]. The only way he can get around this [that I've seen] besides teching the move is to recover high [i.e., not to the ledge], but Ganondorf can jump out there with uair/bair/fair/side+B to cover this pretty safely [side+b is less safe obviously, but with a well-timed cancel, he'll get an early KO there too].

[You probably don't need to RAR and can just b-reverse the move I'd assume (I think that's a thing?), but I usually just RAR when I need it because I like RAR as an option and it's pretty easy to do.]

You can't b reverse his down special yet, and game and watch should normally be able to go right above Gannon, avoiding the situation completely. even if he rides the wall, you can hold down shield during his up special to auto tech.

 

[Mimsy]

Donkey kong is much better than he is placed on our mixed tier list, same with bowser and samus. I would suggest moving them into the places of ivysaur, tink, and olimar.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

View attachment 257
Donkey kong is much better than he is placed on our mixed tier list, same with bowser and samus. I would suggest moving them into the places of ivysaur, tink, and olimar.

I agree that DK should be moved up, not so sure about bowser or Samus. Ivy is definitely better that Bowser or DK, plus she has way better results than either of them. I'll move olimar and TL down tho.

 

[Mimsy]

I agree that DK should be moved up, not so sure about bowser or Samus. Ivy is definitely better that Bowser or DK, plus she has way better results than either of them. I'll move olimar and TL down tho.

I wish there was a way for me to like transfer what I've seen dk, Samus, and Bowser do to you.
And this is really ignorant, but for now the only thing I can tell you is that I know Bowser, Samus, and dk are better than ivy.
If you can convince Allcaps to netplay you one day, you'll see how good Samus is.
If you can convince Risa to netplay you one day, you will see how good dk is.
If you can convince Luda to netplay you one day, you'll see how good Bowser is.

I will admit that my knowledge on ivysaur probably isn't as vast as y'alls, but I have yet to see an ivy hold his own in a tourney. He is also one of the easier characters to gimp recovery wise. I was skeptical about this at first, but even pin will tell you how ivy is easily gimpable

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I wish there was a way for me to like transfer what I've seen dk, Samus, and Bowser do to you.
And this is really ignorant, but for now the only thing I can tell you is that I know Bowser, Samus, and dk are better than ivy.
If you can convince Allcaps to netplay you one day, you'll see how good Samus is.
If you can convince Risa to netplay you one day, you will see how good dk is.
If you can convince Luda to netplay you one day, you'll see how good Bowser is.

I will admit that my knowledge on ivysaur probably isn't as vast as y'alls, but I have yet to see an ivy hold his own in a tourney. He is also one of the easier characters to gimp recovery wise. I was skeptical about this at first, but even pin will tell you how ivy is easily gimpable

Yeah, I'd love to play then sometimes. Also BC win the first official tourney with ivy, so she does have more results than Bowser/samus.