Mario's dash attack

[Gold_TSG]

It needs tweaking to make it less broken. After playing with Bent a bunch, I've noticed that it has too many pros and most no cons. For starters, it is a fast dash attack, with enough priority to clash with smash attacks. Not only that, but by not using the second command to get up, it can essentially chain into itself over and over at low %s, granting lots of free damage because there is no time to land and tech out of it. The move needs to be nerfed in some way to make it more manageable to play against, as it is simply too strong as it is.

 

[NEWB]

IMO, it's still easily avoidable by jumping and doing a dair, and jabs also clang very easily with it. Dtilts also do well.

That being said, I don't like that it can combo into itself. Maybe this shouldn't happen. That's my only gripe though.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It's not as easy to avoid when it's being used on you as you're coming back down from a double jump, and no matter what the case is, it shouldn't have enough priority to cancel out a smash attack. To my knowledge, no other dash attack can do that, on top of being chainable and highly versatile with the second input to hop back up. Once you're hit at low %, you're getting hit at LEAST 3 times, only to be followed up by with pretty much any other move, likely an usmash.

 

[NEWB]

What smash does it clans with? Some are pretty weak.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The match in particular that I noticed this in was while I was playing as Kirby. It cancelled out his fsmash and dsmash.

 

[NEWB]

Really? Is that intended? Maybe compare other dash attacks before saying it only happens with Mario.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I plan on doing that once I have a partner to test it with. I already know it eats right through Falcon's side B as well, but that's not my focus right now. I also know that Kirby smashes go through Falcon's dash attack, as this happened during matches with Glyph.

 

[NEWB]

And another thing, if they get you with a dash attack when are landing after using all your jumps, that isn't the moves fault. Any dash attack will get you at that point.

I'm pretty sure that many dash attacks can cancel with smashes. Can anyone else weigh in here?

 

[Gold_TSG]

I wasn't blaming the move for that. I was retorting to an argument that could be used against virtually anything and didn't really weigh in on my complaint.

I've confirmed that it cancels Marth's smash and tipper as well. I'm still not seeing how or why this dash attack should be capable of this.

Also, this isn't about how to avoid a move. This is about lack of reward for outplaying your opponent. If I back up just enough where the hitbox doesn't hit me, and I go to smash them while they're still stuck in the attack animation, I expect them to be hit/punished for attacking recklessly and giving me the chance to retaliate, not cancel out any move I use.

 

[NEWB]

Neither do I. Unless other dash attacks are that good against smashes. They are seldom used against them because they require you to start running, closing the space between you and your foe, and then doing the dash attack, which has start up.

I'm open to it losing priority, but only if it's one of very few dash attacks that beat out fsmashes.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The priority lowering and removing the chaining is all I'm asking for. The move itself is fine otherwise. I just think something with such a long-lingering hitbox shouldn't be so safe to use, considering everything it can do.

I don't think any other dash attacks, save for the really strong ones like Dorf's, can cancel out smash attacks, and Dorf can only do that because of his power. Not only that, but it's slow, predictable, and has no other versatility. Even disjointed hitboxes like on Ike and Marth can't flat out cancel out smash attacks. The dash attack gets cancelled and the smash goes straight through.

 

[Sammi-husky]

I believe that i was also brought up these points a long time ago. glad i'm not the only one that sees these things. It shouldn't have so much priority. The fact is that it has far more reward then risk. The risk is so low, that throwing out there is nearly always a better option then alot of his moves. It's also incredibly hard to shield grab him out of it. My vote Is still where it stood before. The dash either needs to have less priority and not combo into itself at low percents with a finishing f-smash. Or it needs to be slower.

I REALLY DON'T LIKE SLOWING DOWN MOVES in minus. i'd much rather see the problem addressed at it's core rather then lazily just slowing it down.

Regardless of other peoples dash attacks, nobody can beat out the fact that mario's has a ton of reward if it hits, and little to NO risk if it doesn't. It also simply is not fun to play against as is, knowing you have to completely avoid a certain move, because there is so little counterplay against it. Lucario's up-b was nerfed because it had too much priority, i don't see it as unreasonable that mario's dash should be treated in the same manner.

 

[Bent 00]

8 out of 10 players in my groups want Mario's Dash Attack to not chain into itself so easily.

As for its high priority... Doesn't Mario need a move that can open up the opponent for follow-ups? If the priority is reduced too much, he'll have a hard time getting combos started when playing aggressively.

 

[NEWB]

Yeah... Outside of low percent combos, Mario has very few combos. He has dair two hit combos, utilt combos, dtilt combos, and dash attack combos. That is it. Most of those are comboed with 1 more move. He makes up for this by having strong and fast smashes.

Has anyone tried clanging with it using jabs or dtilt? You really don't need to avoid the move as much as you think. It's very easy to clang with. After that it's a mixup.

I do agree that it shouldn't chain together, but he does need the dash attack to open up his foe like everyone else.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It isn't a problem for it to clang with jabs and tilts. Most dash attacks do that already. It's the fact that it clangs with SMASH ATTACKS that I have a problem with. That's a sign that it has too much priority. Mario is already pretty solid a character, and he doesn't need so much priority on a move that's supposed to start into combos. He can already chain 3 usmahes from 0%, and combo further into higher damage. His dash attack is already fast, has a lingering hitbox, and can be used to follow up into more attacks almost immediately (not even counting the ridiculous chaining into itself as mentioned.). Why does it need to have such high priority when it's purpose is to start combos, and not cancel out pretty much any attack? Might as well raise Diddy's priority too, since his dash attack functions almost exactly the same.

As for opening his opponents for aggressive play, he already has plenty of trickery and versatility to accomplish this with his Fludd and his Fireballs, both of which are a legit pain in the ass to deal with, but I have no complaints with them, as they both have their counter-plays. I just don't feel he needs more priority on his dash attack than even powerhouse characters, cause it doesn't fit his style, and it just isn't fair.

 

[NEWB]

I'm not disagreeing with you there. Part of the problem is also in the duration of his hitbox. It really should lose its lingering effect.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Agreed. I like the move as it is, but it just has to lose that excess power.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Mario is monster imo, but i've been there done that trying to explain him so im not gonna bore you all with that again. Mario's dash is indeed the root of it all to be honest. Reducing the priority doesn't hit his combo potential at all. The idea is to make it so that he can't just power through most of your attacks without even fearing a smash. That is a problem lol.

While were on the mario discussion, how does everybody feel about u-smash's priority? it has a gigantic hitbox That literally can't be beat by most things. The move itself is strong, but thats not an issue since all mario's smash's are strong. The only thing i don't like about it, is that it beats out every move that tries to connect with him while the move is out

 

[NEWB]

I have clanged with it before. It's hard too though since it is fast.

I don't have much experience with how it connects with other attacks since it is fast actually. I wouldn't mind losing some priority. After all, the move is fat and likely to land anyway.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I've never even considered his usmash to be an issue before, since I only ever get hit by it if I make a mistake.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Problem is, if you jump him (jumping his dash for example) you wanna be able to hit him away from you on the way down, especially since his u-smash has such a big hitbox. (dash attack-> popup u-smash). Problem is, it beats alot of attacks on the way down, even if the attack is timed well. The hitbox is just that big. It hits your hurtboxes before your hitbox connects with his hurtbox.

That's really my only gripe with that move. i just don't think it's massive priority is necessary

 

[Gold_TSG]

Safe dash -> safe usmash = tons of power.

 

[NEWB]

If his dash attack gets tweaked as we suggested, his upsmash won't be as much of an issue. Basically, make his dash attack end a little sooner and/or ditch his hop up hitbox (or make it hit differently) so that this combo isn't as safe.

 

[justadood]

just reducing dash attack's and up smash's priority would work too...

 

[Gold_TSG]

Has his usmash even been tweaked that much from vbrawl?