King of Evil? More like Speed King

[Thanatoast]

Seriously, Ganondorf is uncharacteristically fast. Not in terms of running; he stomps around about as fast as molasses in the winter. No, I'm talking about all of his combos and perpetual ability to destroy everyone. Now, don't get me wrong: I enjoyed Ganondorf for quite some time. It was interesting to see the bottom tier character get pushed to the top. But... it's getting a bit old with all of the bonuses he keeps getting. Sure, you can't cancel Warlock Punch anymore, but the fact that you can't cancel an Instant Kill move isn't really grounds to bring up. Everything Ganondorf does either seem to have priority because it is a grabbing move or has super armor because he's a millennia-old Gerudo with a piece of a god artifact in his hand. Side-B has a really wide grab box and time slot to grab, which allows folks to just side-b perpetually in the air to prevent chasing (which a lot of the light, fast characters like Sonic rely on); his up-B does the same thing except it not only gives him extra aerial momentum upon landing a hit, but it also spikes them down at a speed comparable to that of a train (as well as allowing him to up-B again to hit the ledge) AND it gives him a wide sweet-spot above his head that leads to an effective OHKO, so you get to choose to either die up or down after his lay-ups; his down-B has that same spike capability but can be easily canceled up and out of it into up-B. And all of these have such little cooldown in the air that it feels like fighting another Marth. A big, heavy Marth that just 4 hit combos you. The only real big downfall of Ganon is that his range is absolute garbage. I'm not even going to try to argue that his range is good. Sure, you get a Pikachu and you throw him/ headbutt him to the edge, and drop a Thunder/Thunderjolt, you got it. But that's if he just doesn't snatch you out of the air and straight-up plant you into the ground. It's a high-risk/low-reward fight.
Don't get me wrong, he is SO CLOSE TO BEING DONE WELL! He feels pleasant in all other aspects, except for mainly his side-B and his up-B. They're just... too fast and wide.

Proposal:
-Increase cooldown on Side-B, decrease range of grab
-Decrease range/time of grab on up-B

Thoughts? Responses?

 

[Kien]

Ganon is another of the characters who we'll be using a version from my build for. I wouldn't mind toning down his up B sweetspot as I know that's a KO from around 30% on heavyweights even. I'll talk to the BR about it. I don't think nerfing side B would be great though. It's one of the tools that makes him as good as he is.

 

[Thanatoast]

Ganon is another of the characters who we'll be using a version from my build for. I wouldn't mind toning down his up B sweetspot as I know that's a KO from around 30% on heavyweights even. I'll talk to the BR about it. I don't think nerfing side B would be great though. It's one of the tools that makes him as good as he is.

I'll have to check it out, then. A tone down on the up-B would be welcome, too. I'd be satisfied and deal with keeping his side-B as it is if we got the reduction, as long as one of them got pruned and trimmed a bit.

 

[Thor]

Ganondorf needs buffs or no nerfs. I haven't played Gold_TSG in a while, but I've improved a lot and since I last played him and got way better, bodied basically almost every other Ganondorf I've played with Falco and had similar success with Sheik. Falco gets stupid dairs on him and Sheik's ftilt and fastfall nair kinda shut him down [among other things, but those two things really hurt him]. Also I've shinespiked people's Ganondorf's with Fox more times than most would like to admit @Doqtor Kirby [I think it's Doqk I'm thinking of...]

Side+b has endlag and startup lag - bait them out and punish them. Up+b's uppercut is a sweet finisher, but hard to hit if you don't combo into it or act stupid when he's on the ledge, and comboing into it is really risky because you're a huge target with big endlag when you land - I could see making it kill maybe 10-15% later but it should still probably kill most, if not all, people before 60% [otherwise he probably can't combo into it - and also those combos are super DIable since he's so dang slow, so it should be very high reward in my opinion].

Down B has low aerial endlag but long duration and a very linear trajectory - I have shinespiked Ganondorf out of it with Fox [XD] and also dair'd more than one person out of it with multiple characters [mostly Falco, but I did it with Ganondorf once, Falcon once or twice, and even with Pikachu (and yes dair, not thunder)].

I think Ganondorf is very good for someone who doesn't overcommit, but he struggles vs characters that don't have to commit to make his day miserable. Which is actually most of the cast, but most of the cast is so used to committing vs the rest of the cast [since Minus is one of the few games where offense and defense are actually both very very close in terms of usablility - Melee Fox offensve > defense, Falco multishine > defense, otherwise defense >= offense, and Brawl/Smash 4 defense > offense] that they just do dumb stuff vs Ganondorf and get rekt for it.

 

[Thanatoast]

Ganondorf needs buffs or no nerfs. I haven't played Gold_TSG in a while, but I've improved a lot and since I last played him and got way better, bodied basically almost every other Ganondorf I've played with Falco and had similar success with Sheik. Falco gets stupid dairs on him and Sheik's ftilt and fastfall nair kinda shut him down [among other things, but those two things really hurt him]. Also I've shinespiked people's Ganondorf's with Fox more times than most would like to admit @Doqtor Kirby [I think it's Doqk I'm thinking of...]

Side+b has endlag and startup lag - bait them out and punish them. Up+b's uppercut is a sweet finisher, but hard to hit if you don't combo into it or act stupid when he's on the ledge, and comboing into it is really risky because you're a huge target with big endlag when you land - I could see making it kill maybe 10-15% later but it should still probably kill most, if not all, people before 60% [otherwise he probably can't combo into it - and also those combos are super DIable since he's so dang slow, so it should be very high reward in my opinion].

Down B has low aerial endlag but long duration and a very linear trajectory - I have shinespiked Ganondorf out of it with Fox [XD] and also dair'd more than one person out of it with multiple characters [mostly Falco, but I did it with Ganondorf once, Falcon once or twice, and even with Pikachu (and yes dair, not thunder)].

I think Ganondorf is very good for someone who doesn't overcommit, but he struggles vs characters that don't have to commit to make his day miserable. Which is actually most of the cast, but most of the cast is so used to committing vs the rest of the cast [since Minus is one of the few games where offense and defense are actually both very very close in terms of usablility - Melee Fox offensve > defense, Falco multishine > defense, otherwise defense >= offense, and Brawl/Smash 4 defense > offense] that they just do dumb stuff vs Ganondorf and get rekt for it.

I'll have to take that into consideration. It feels like Ganon's Side-B just grabs any character out of any attack they're doing, and maybe I'm missing the frames (or rather hitting them perfectly) on his down-B when he's in the middle of doing it. I can see him struggle against characters like Falco, Sheik, and Fox because of their speed and chaining is second-to-none (save for maybe Falcon and Marth), but as for characters that aren't that fast, or characters that don't have a choice but to overcommit, he just snatches 'em out of the air. I don't know, maybe I'm too used to having to overcommit to try and keep Ganon from getting himself trucking as opposed to catching 'im while he's going and between those stops of his...