How to fight Metal Mario as each character
- Thread starter Bent 00
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Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Let's just get back to the original purpose of this topic.
Which characters cannot reliably chain Metal Mario or lock him in place?
Also, I'm available for matches if anyone's game. Unless you've already played my "B" Grade Mario, I'll start off as him for a while.
Which characters cannot reliably chain Metal Mario or lock him in place?
Also, I'm available for matches if anyone's game. Unless you've already played my "B" Grade Mario, I'll start off as him for a while.
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
my opinion? i loved using the cap before when it came out faster and NONE of the friends i play with (miguel, jb, matt 1, salam, mehdi, matt 2, jose, phil, natasha, othman) have found it cheap or even annoying, and all i use it for is when i have high damage and still want to fight well, but grabbing and dodging and even just ranged attacks end up putting me to hell. 
and now that it comes out soooo friggin slowly, it's actually almost unusable in game... especially in ffa's xP seriously, just let it go, it's not very hard at all to fight back almost every character has a strategy to deal with characters like this... basically it's the same approach as if you have high damage approaching this mario with really low damage, and it's only temporary in the first place :/
and now that it comes out soooo friggin slowly, it's actually almost unusable in game... especially in ffa's xP seriously, just let it go, it's not very hard at all to fight back almost every character has a strategy to deal with characters like this... basically it's the same approach as if you have high damage approaching this mario with really low damage, and it's only temporary in the first place :/
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Right now, I have my ps3 hooked up. I'm kinda stuck sharing rooms with my bro right now, so I'll get to testing mm match ups soonish.
I can't remember if Marth has a chain grab on mMario, but I can tell you that he destroys mm.
Also, hope no one took this whole thing too personally. They DID say that they may look into changing metal if we are going off what pin says.
I can't remember if Marth has a chain grab on mMario, but I can tell you that he destroys mm.
Also, hope no one took this whole thing too personally. They DID say that they may look into changing metal if we are going off what pin says.
Too lazy/busy to quote the certain points, so I'm going to reply to the aspects I remember.
Metal Cap is not as easy to set up as you're making it out to be. The current time to get Metal Cap up is 150 frames, or 2.5 seconds, which is longer than it takes to use almost every other move in the game sans the explosion on Diddy's Peanut Pop Gun. The only times he should be able to get it up is if you are dead or if you have a really long recovery. In neutral, it's impossible for him to do it against a decent player unless you're for some reason on opposite sides of vBrawl's Temple or New Pork City.
As for statistics, The people who are for Metal Cap have posted here, while the people on your side we can only believe they are on your side and that they are that many people. Maybe if you invited your friends to post here and let us gauge their input on Metal Mario, your numbers would have actual things to consider rather than "I have this many people supporting me! Oh yeah? Will I have THIS MANY" and etc. etc. If you like, I can give this thread a pretty little poll so people can simply say "keep or leave".
Falcon and Zelda have a hard time against Metal, a mode that he has to spend time setting up and only lasts 10 seconds? That's really not that bad. You also mentioned Falcon's chaingrab, and "why should I do that if I could just stall him out?". That's something Falcon has to think about. The risk/reward factor. You can grab him bunches until his metal wears off, but if you make a mistake, he gets to cash in on it. In addition, Falcon's chaingrab on MM is really simple, just stand in place and dThrow, a chain that works until 140, but you're simply unwilling to learn how to do this despite knowing it's an option.
One of your faults with Metal Mario seem to be coming off of the fact that it's his taunt, but I must ask: Would your arguments be any different if it were coming off of sideB or sideTilt? You would be saying all of the same things, except for the taunt argument.
I will repeat again that some characters are better at certain jobs than others are. Zelda will always have a better MU against Bowser than Diddy Kong will. Dedede's insane stage control can block out some character's approach options. I go through a similar thing in another game, but it's much worse as my situation is against a full-time character rather than 10 second man, and the characters I play there range from "Not good against her" to "Literally the worst match-up in the game". Complaining about it accomplishes nothing. Instead, I must learn what I can do against my opponent, even if the statistics are bad. In addition, not every match-up is going to be 50-50, whether it's Minus or any other fighter on the market, unless every single character was identical.
If Metal Mario were a whole character rather than a 10 second deal, it would be more worthwhile to study his specific match-ups. The only time in Minus history where things have been changed around for a specific match-up is Zelda vs. Bowser, which used to be by far the worst match-up in Minus. The reason we likely won't be changing it now is because the rest of Mario vs. Zelda is completely balanced, and "Switching to Shiek when Mario becomes metal and then comboing him" is an option as well. You need to look at all of the options you have against your opponent, and use them to the best of their abilities against your foe's options. That's what learning a fighter is about.
Metal Cap is not as easy to set up as you're making it out to be. The current time to get Metal Cap up is 150 frames, or 2.5 seconds, which is longer than it takes to use almost every other move in the game sans the explosion on Diddy's Peanut Pop Gun. The only times he should be able to get it up is if you are dead or if you have a really long recovery. In neutral, it's impossible for him to do it against a decent player unless you're for some reason on opposite sides of vBrawl's Temple or New Pork City.
As for statistics, The people who are for Metal Cap have posted here, while the people on your side we can only believe they are on your side and that they are that many people. Maybe if you invited your friends to post here and let us gauge their input on Metal Mario, your numbers would have actual things to consider rather than "I have this many people supporting me! Oh yeah? Will I have THIS MANY" and etc. etc. If you like, I can give this thread a pretty little poll so people can simply say "keep or leave".
Falcon and Zelda have a hard time against Metal, a mode that he has to spend time setting up and only lasts 10 seconds? That's really not that bad. You also mentioned Falcon's chaingrab, and "why should I do that if I could just stall him out?". That's something Falcon has to think about. The risk/reward factor. You can grab him bunches until his metal wears off, but if you make a mistake, he gets to cash in on it. In addition, Falcon's chaingrab on MM is really simple, just stand in place and dThrow, a chain that works until 140, but you're simply unwilling to learn how to do this despite knowing it's an option.
One of your faults with Metal Mario seem to be coming off of the fact that it's his taunt, but I must ask: Would your arguments be any different if it were coming off of sideB or sideTilt? You would be saying all of the same things, except for the taunt argument.
I will repeat again that some characters are better at certain jobs than others are. Zelda will always have a better MU against Bowser than Diddy Kong will. Dedede's insane stage control can block out some character's approach options. I go through a similar thing in another game, but it's much worse as my situation is against a full-time character rather than 10 second man, and the characters I play there range from "Not good against her" to "Literally the worst match-up in the game". Complaining about it accomplishes nothing. Instead, I must learn what I can do against my opponent, even if the statistics are bad. In addition, not every match-up is going to be 50-50, whether it's Minus or any other fighter on the market, unless every single character was identical.
If Metal Mario were a whole character rather than a 10 second deal, it would be more worthwhile to study his specific match-ups. The only time in Minus history where things have been changed around for a specific match-up is Zelda vs. Bowser, which used to be by far the worst match-up in Minus. The reason we likely won't be changing it now is because the rest of Mario vs. Zelda is completely balanced, and "Switching to Shiek when Mario becomes metal and then comboing him" is an option as well. You need to look at all of the options you have against your opponent, and use them to the best of their abilities against your foe's options. That's what learning a fighter is about.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
It's easy to use the Metal Cap at least 2 or 3 times during a 4-stock match.
I would be interested to see an official poll about this. If you make one, I'll get my friends to make accounts and vote.
If Mario lost his Cape in exchange for the Metal Cap, that would be more fair than just getting a game-changing ability tacked on to a taunt for no reason other than novelty. It wouldn't make sense, and having it replace a tilt would make even less sense, but it would be slightly more balanced, I guess? It would still be just as annoying though.
If the Metal Cap must be kept in, why isn't it a Super Taunt input instead of a regular Side Taunt? It's easily in "Super Taunt" class, so at least make the player press up, down, up instead of just lazily tapping Side Taunt for such a major buff.
I don't want to see stalling EVER be the best option in Minus, much less encouraged multiple times per match. As long as the Metal Cap operates on a timer, certain characters' best option against him will always be to stall.
Pin, I forget -- did you ever try playing against my Mario? I'm only about "B" Grade as him, but if you want to try some matches, I'll do my best to demonstrate why Metal is annoying. Have you played any other good Marios who go Metal at every opportunity?
...Still waiting on reasons to keep the Metal Cap other than "novelty" BTW.
I would be interested to see an official poll about this. If you make one, I'll get my friends to make accounts and vote.
If Mario lost his Cape in exchange for the Metal Cap, that would be more fair than just getting a game-changing ability tacked on to a taunt for no reason other than novelty. It wouldn't make sense, and having it replace a tilt would make even less sense, but it would be slightly more balanced, I guess? It would still be just as annoying though.
If the Metal Cap must be kept in, why isn't it a Super Taunt input instead of a regular Side Taunt? It's easily in "Super Taunt" class, so at least make the player press up, down, up instead of just lazily tapping Side Taunt for such a major buff.
I don't want to see stalling EVER be the best option in Minus, much less encouraged multiple times per match. As long as the Metal Cap operates on a timer, certain characters' best option against him will always be to stall.
Pin, I forget -- did you ever try playing against my Mario? I'm only about "B" Grade as him, but if you want to try some matches, I'll do my best to demonstrate why Metal is annoying. Have you played any other good Marios who go Metal at every opportunity?
...Still waiting on reasons to keep the Metal Cap other than "novelty" BTW.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
One of my friends, MJF, already posted his opinion on Metal Mario over on the old board. His name is "Apotheosis of Smash" over there. Here's what he posted:
He posted that before the Metal Cap was slowed down in MAX 1.01, but he still thinks Minus would be better without it. Everyone else I mentioned feels the same way (except our two Mario mains, obviously). I'll get them to register and at least vote if that will actually make a difference.
Source: http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-6 ... #pid163693ApotheosisOfSmash' said:
He posted that before the Metal Cap was slowed down in MAX 1.01, but he still thinks Minus would be better without it. Everyone else I mentioned feels the same way (except our two Mario mains, obviously). I'll get them to register and at least vote if that will actually make a difference.
There have been tons of reasons in this thread stating why Metal Mario is there outside of novelty, and that it's not always a pro to go metal, that are too valid to simply be ignored . Metal Mario is currently an option that has not only play, but counterplay as well. Stalling is "an option" in everything, but it isn't the best option in anything. It feels fun to go Metal Mario, and it feels fun when you see a Metal Mario and use his own weight against him. There is no character where running away is the best option, everyone has something they can do, be it a grab or a bunch of hits. Metal Mario weakens Mario's approach and air game, only aiding his ground game. Even if he gains being near-immunity to being KO'd for 10 seconds, it's still a trade off. Glyph and many other people have played your Mario, and all of them have vouched that it isn't as game-breaking as you're making it out to be. In addition, remember, one person being good at something doesn't prove that a character or mechanic is broken or over centralizing.
Super Taunt isn't that hard of an input, it's really easy to do on Lucario and especially Falcon.
Anyways, as of this post there will be a poll in the OP.
Ganon shouldn't be using fSmashes against Metal Mario, or any metal character. If he's doing that, he should rethink his strategy. If you do want to attack MM head on, however, a Satan Punch kills Metal Mario same as it would anyone else.
Super Taunt isn't that hard of an input, it's really easy to do on Lucario and especially Falcon.
Anyways, as of this post there will be a poll in the OP.
Ganon shouldn't be using fSmashes against Metal Mario, or any metal character. If he's doing that, he should rethink his strategy. If you do want to attack MM head on, however, a Satan Punch kills Metal Mario same as it would anyone else.
Thunda-Moo
Minus Backroom
Bent PM'd me solely to ask my opinion on this topic. This is now officially my first post on our new forums. Wow. I guess it's a pretty big deal. So I'm going to state my opinion.
I remember way back in... version 2.0, I think... when we had a normal speed side taunt, fireballs that could bounce the entire length of Final Destination, and a really, really spammy friend. Those were dark times. Changes had to be made, and we made those changes.
Personally, I don't like Metal Mario. I think, gameplay-wise, he's quite terrible. He encourages spam, keep-away tactics, and generally static, unfun play for everyone in the game. There are many situations where Metal Mario provides quite a distinct advantage but my friends and I opt to not use him anyway, just because we think it's not as fun.
But I don't think he's imbalanced. I don't think Zelda or anyone else can't deal with him and I think that even if you truly can't deal with him he's still just Mario. Stalling him out is dumb but it's not particularly hard, and I don't think that even the worst Mario matchups are significantly impacted by Metal Mario. I think anyone saying he's a balance issue is simply wrong, and it's clear I'm far from the only one.
But I also don't think that's the main issue. Metal Mario is a really neat novelty, but in practice he is not any fun to play against, and once your opponent learns how to deal with him he is not any fun to play as, either. I think that's quite terrible.
But I also think that removing him outright is a bad move, and we're probably not going to do that. We'll see what happens.
I remember way back in... version 2.0, I think... when we had a normal speed side taunt, fireballs that could bounce the entire length of Final Destination, and a really, really spammy friend. Those were dark times. Changes had to be made, and we made those changes.
Personally, I don't like Metal Mario. I think, gameplay-wise, he's quite terrible. He encourages spam, keep-away tactics, and generally static, unfun play for everyone in the game. There are many situations where Metal Mario provides quite a distinct advantage but my friends and I opt to not use him anyway, just because we think it's not as fun.
But I don't think he's imbalanced. I don't think Zelda or anyone else can't deal with him and I think that even if you truly can't deal with him he's still just Mario. Stalling him out is dumb but it's not particularly hard, and I don't think that even the worst Mario matchups are significantly impacted by Metal Mario. I think anyone saying he's a balance issue is simply wrong, and it's clear I'm far from the only one.
But I also don't think that's the main issue. Metal Mario is a really neat novelty, but in practice he is not any fun to play against, and once your opponent learns how to deal with him he is not any fun to play as, either. I think that's quite terrible.
But I also think that removing him outright is a bad move, and we're probably not going to do that. We'll see what happens.
Ferrous Faucet
Well-Known Member
I've been reading this topic, and held off on commenting until now. Since the poll is up, I'll state my opinion: I agree with Glyph.
Metal Mario can be annoying to fight against because he increases Mario's survivability, meaning that Metal Mario can tank attacks that would normally KO Mario.
But Metal Mario isn't invincible, and he can be fought. It might take adaptation, like learning new tactics, new combos, new techniques, new approaches, predicting different patterns of attack (if your opponent uses Metal Mario differently from Mario). It makes you adapt to a new situation, which isn't the same thing as breaking the game. If your new strategy you choose to adopt is outright avoidance, that's your choice. It's not the only choice.
Bent says that the best option is always to stall, simply avoiding Metal Mario until the metal effect wears off. I don't agree. If a character can chaingrab Metal Mario, and Metal Mario cannot escape the grab (a true chaingrab), then a player could choose to use Mario's metal time as an opportunity to rack up severe damage. Since Metal Mario falls much faster than Mario, a player might take the opportunity to try to get a gimp kill. Like Pin Clock said, it's weighing risk against reward. If you think the potential reward of racking up damage against your opponent is not worth the risk that he might land hits against you, then you might think that avoidance is a smarter tactic. But that's your choice, made by your own evaluation of risk versus reward.
I haven't played against a supremely skilled Metal Mario player, and I haven't even gotten around to playing version 1.01 yet (with the increased activation time of the metal taunt). I'll be doing that this weekend. I'm the best Mario player in my group, so if anything I have been experiencing it from the point of view of the Mario player. But it's easy for me to see that players have options other than simply avoiding Metal Mario until the timer runs out. That's just one option.
Metal Mario can be annoying to fight against because he increases Mario's survivability, meaning that Metal Mario can tank attacks that would normally KO Mario.
But Metal Mario isn't invincible, and he can be fought. It might take adaptation, like learning new tactics, new combos, new techniques, new approaches, predicting different patterns of attack (if your opponent uses Metal Mario differently from Mario). It makes you adapt to a new situation, which isn't the same thing as breaking the game. If your new strategy you choose to adopt is outright avoidance, that's your choice. It's not the only choice.
Bent says that the best option is always to stall, simply avoiding Metal Mario until the metal effect wears off. I don't agree. If a character can chaingrab Metal Mario, and Metal Mario cannot escape the grab (a true chaingrab), then a player could choose to use Mario's metal time as an opportunity to rack up severe damage. Since Metal Mario falls much faster than Mario, a player might take the opportunity to try to get a gimp kill. Like Pin Clock said, it's weighing risk against reward. If you think the potential reward of racking up damage against your opponent is not worth the risk that he might land hits against you, then you might think that avoidance is a smarter tactic. But that's your choice, made by your own evaluation of risk versus reward.
I haven't played against a supremely skilled Metal Mario player, and I haven't even gotten around to playing version 1.01 yet (with the increased activation time of the metal taunt). I'll be doing that this weekend. I'm the best Mario player in my group, so if anything I have been experiencing it from the point of view of the Mario player. But it's easy for me to see that players have options other than simply avoiding Metal Mario until the timer runs out. That's just one option.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
That's exactly how everyone in my groups (except the Mario players) feel. Thanks for posting, Thunda!Thunda-Moo said:
Thanks to everyone else considering this issue in depth, too. Just a couple things I think I need to restate:
Two justifications for keeping the Metal Cap in keep popping up, which shouldn't be:
1.) "Glyph (or anyone else playing a character with an advantage against MM) had no problem against your MM."
2.) "Most characters don't have a big problem against MM."
First off, my Mario. It's not the best, only about "B" Grade at most IMO. You guys who have played my Mario haven't seen him at his maximum potential. Far from it. Glyph's Kirby and Ness, as well as Gold_TSG's DK absolutely STOMPED my Mario. However, they are easily Grade "A" as those characters, and all three of them have advantages against Metal Mario.
Second: When you're judging something to be unbalanced or not in a fighting game with a large roster, you should not dismiss the thing in question just because most of the cast don't have a problem with it. For the purpose of trying to find out if and how Metal Mario is unbalanced, please do not consider characters who have an advantage against him at this time. Anyone who can reliably chaingrab/chainthrow or otherwise lock Metal Mario in place until the effect wears off will have no problem with the Metal Cap. What needs your attention is: What about the characters who can't do that, or the ones who can, but the better option is always to stall?
Pin Clock and Ferrous Faucet have said that stalling is never the best option against Metal Mario. That is not true. What exactly is Zelda supposed to do against him? Her grabs are too slow, and Metal Mario powers through her ranged hitboxes quickly, forcing her off the stage. And while Falcon does have a chainthrow on MM, it's rarely worth the risk to attempt landing the grab. If you're at low damage and you miss, you're gonna eat two or three Up Smashes! Whereas if you wait until Mario reverts, the majority of your moveset is viable again. A good Metal Mario knows he's weak against chaingrabs/throws, so he's gonna be expecting you to try that.
Let's figure out which other characters are weak against Metal Mario.
Ferrous Faucet
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean to say that stalling is never the best option. I mean to say that stalling is not always the best option. I will admit that it might sometimes be the best. The point I was trying to make is that it stalling is an option, not a necessity. It's a tactic that you choose, not one that you're forced into. There are other options available. And which option is the best depends on the players, the stage, the character matchup, and the situation. There are so many variables that we can't say which option is always the best.
I can admit that some matchups might be less advantaged against Metal Mario, but I don't have enough experience to know all that. I probably haven't played every possible Mario matchup in Brawl Minus, and I certainly haven't played them against a skilled Metal Mario player. I can say with confidence that avoiding Metal Mario altogether is not always the best option.
If it can be shown that a vast majority of the Smash roster has a severe disadvantage against Metal Mario, I might be for removing it. But from what I've seen, Metal Mario only causes his opponent to adapt to a new strategy for a few seconds. That is not the same as saying that Metal Mario causes a stall in the game for a few seconds.
I can admit that some matchups might be less advantaged against Metal Mario, but I don't have enough experience to know all that. I probably haven't played every possible Mario matchup in Brawl Minus, and I certainly haven't played them against a skilled Metal Mario player. I can say with confidence that avoiding Metal Mario altogether is not always the best option.
If it can be shown that a vast majority of the Smash roster has a severe disadvantage against Metal Mario, I might be for removing it. But from what I've seen, Metal Mario only causes his opponent to adapt to a new strategy for a few seconds. That is not the same as saying that Metal Mario causes a stall in the game for a few seconds.
Glyph
Moderator
Bent why would you quote the part of Thunda's post that supports your case and completely ignore the part that says it's already balanced?
And I need some clarification as to what characters are at a disadvantage. You've previously claimed Falcon and Zelda. Falcon has a chain throw, and Zelda can very easily just switch to Sheik for a ftilt lock. Even if you're playing someone who doesn't get an inherent boost from seeing MM come out (ala Ness) its still possible to fight him. You can't blindly rush in, but you shouldn't be doing that against a Mario anyway.
EDIT: Also, I'm flattered but my Ness is far from as good as Ness could be. In fact my Kirby still has a lot of room for improvement too, though at least with Kirby I know the direction to take to get him to the next level.
And I need some clarification as to what characters are at a disadvantage. You've previously claimed Falcon and Zelda. Falcon has a chain throw, and Zelda can very easily just switch to Sheik for a ftilt lock. Even if you're playing someone who doesn't get an inherent boost from seeing MM come out (ala Ness) its still possible to fight him. You can't blindly rush in, but you shouldn't be doing that against a Mario anyway.
EDIT: Also, I'm flattered but my Ness is far from as good as Ness could be. In fact my Kirby still has a lot of room for improvement too, though at least with Kirby I know the direction to take to get him to the next level.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I can't believe this is still going...
Not every character in the game needs to handle MM the same way. I'm all for testing which ones do better than others, but this is getting ridiculous. Even without the metal cap, the general argument here is that some things some chars can do is not handled well by some other chars, which is the natural state of fighting games in general. I play mainly melee-focused characters, and they have a hard time against those with projectiles. I'm not complaining about it and asking for removal of projectiles. Some chars have super armor that others can't break through in certain attacks, and we aren't removing that either.
Everything has an advantage and a disadvantage. That's the way it's supposed to be.
Not every character in the game needs to handle MM the same way. I'm all for testing which ones do better than others, but this is getting ridiculous. Even without the metal cap, the general argument here is that some things some chars can do is not handled well by some other chars, which is the natural state of fighting games in general. I play mainly melee-focused characters, and they have a hard time against those with projectiles. I'm not complaining about it and asking for removal of projectiles. Some chars have super armor that others can't break through in certain attacks, and we aren't removing that either.
Everything has an advantage and a disadvantage. That's the way it's supposed to be.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Anyone want to play some matches to help figure out which characters are weak against Metal Mario?
I'll test characters against always-metal Level 9 CPU Mario in the meantime.
Regular Mario cannot chainthrow or lock MM, but his Dash Attack, D-Smash, D-Throw, and U-Throw all combine into U-Smash well, which can juggle MM easily.
Luigi can chainthrow MM with D-Throw until ~140%. He can also use Thunderhand or Green Missile on MM immediately after a D-Throw if MM fails to tech roll away. Luigi's Up Smash juggles MM very well, and D-Smash is effective if MM gets too close.
Peach seems to be at a big disadvantage overall. However, she can chainthrow MM with D-Throw (she must pivot after each throw) until ~75%. Her Frying Pan F-Smash also juggles MM well, but it's tricky to get it started. Peach's N-Air knocks MM a good distance.
Wario feels somewhat disadvantaged in this matchup. He can chainthrow MM until ~105%, but other than that, only his Smashes, B-Air, and Up-B are effective against him.
Yoshi cannot chainthrow or lock MM, but his U-Throw and D-Throw lead into easy juggles with U-Smash and U-Tilt. If Yoshi can put MM in an egg with Neutral B offstage, it's unlikely MM will break out in time.
I'll test characters against always-metal Level 9 CPU Mario in the meantime.
Regular Mario cannot chainthrow or lock MM, but his Dash Attack, D-Smash, D-Throw, and U-Throw all combine into U-Smash well, which can juggle MM easily.
Luigi can chainthrow MM with D-Throw until ~140%. He can also use Thunderhand or Green Missile on MM immediately after a D-Throw if MM fails to tech roll away. Luigi's Up Smash juggles MM very well, and D-Smash is effective if MM gets too close.
Peach seems to be at a big disadvantage overall. However, she can chainthrow MM with D-Throw (she must pivot after each throw) until ~75%. Her Frying Pan F-Smash also juggles MM well, but it's tricky to get it started. Peach's N-Air knocks MM a good distance.
Wario feels somewhat disadvantaged in this matchup. He can chainthrow MM until ~105%, but other than that, only his Smashes, B-Air, and Up-B are effective against him.
Yoshi cannot chainthrow or lock MM, but his U-Throw and D-Throw lead into easy juggles with U-Smash and U-Tilt. If Yoshi can put MM in an egg with Neutral B offstage, it's unlikely MM will break out in time.
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
Bent 00 said:
way to read only what you want to hear -_-
oh my god, how the hell is this something only METAL mario can do?? dude, like every other point you make is about MARIO's speed. METAL MARIO IS NOT FASTER THAN MARIO!! I connot stress this enough: metal mario is not at all over powered, and if you're running away from him because he's metal, i feel bad for you. You're missing out on the game if you dismiss every little risk or challenge as "unfair" or "overpowered" ...if he got a STARMAN you should be running from him, but if you REALLY WANT A LIST OF COUNTER PLAYS, here goes:
mario: metal mario! or squirty (that's just what i call it) cape, grab, dash attack)
luigi: ANY AIR ATTACKS, slide-dashing, slide dash grabbing, GRABBING (air fireballs still help secure it), gimp dodging: luigi has one of the quickest air attacks in the game, even out of hurt-lag like mario's up smash, and can stay airborn for SOO long
peach: AIR PLAY!! also side b links into anything, toad even works well. also turnips help keep away, and of course her throws, although they don't chain grab, are very useful for hitting away, and don't forget that mario falls twice as fast if you hit him off stage
bowser: just press b... if you need more than that, you should try real grabs or air grabs, since with added armor approaching bowser in air is almost useless with mario
donkey: barrels, side b, forward air, back air, up air, any air, down b, GRABS
diddy: one of the only characters i don't play as, but his mobility and gimp play, especially with bananas and side b's, can rack up damage insanely quick
yoshi: egg throws (even if reflected will blow up on him if he's grounded), air attacks, one of the easiest chain grabs in the game
wario: i'll eventually post a video of this guy's insane stage control and mobility, but seriously, grabs, air attacks/approaches, even smash attacks
link: arrows... any well placed projectile really, and never underestimate the
zelda: din's fire is OP as hell, and her teleport play is amazing if you practice it
shiek: tilt forward a, grabs, up b, smash attacks actually, a lot of good air play
ganon: tilt up a, side b, up b, down b, any attack, any grab, oh my god mario gets destroyed by a good ganon
toon link: any projectile, especially traps, down air approaches either hit and can be repeated, or miss and can wiff them into a trap arrow
samus: same as approach to any character= charge beam, missiles, bombs all over the place, grabs, down tilt, up tilt, up smash, forward smash, air attacks
szerosuit: oh my god her air play and grabs, her stun gun, her whip, her up b, her down b, everything... especially during ledge fights
pit: i have no clue how i need to post anything here... figure out what wings do
ice climbers: air attacks, grabs at the end of almost every attack, attacks that are already great for racking up damage
rob: lasers, amazing grabs, amazing air mobility and control complete with awesome air attacks, and lets not forget the gyros and side smash lasers
kirby: up b slices, hammer time, dash attacks back and forth across the stage, air attacks, GRABS, i cannot stress enough how easy it is to grab ANYONE in this game, even before the cap comes on
metaknight: air attacks and grabs all the way. down b and up b are great finishers too, and certain smash attacks work at a low angle
dedede: minions, air play, smash attacks, air attacks, GGGGGGRRRRRRRRAAAAAAABBBBBBBSSSSSSS
olimar: smash a, smash a, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, SMASH A, and of course one of the best grabs in the game, the up b, the down b too, AIR ATTACKS!!!
fox: so much speed and great air attacks, mobility and combo potential, even at low damage, and great phantom plays and shine, and don't forget grab-assing and wavedashing
falco: pretty much a more melee style of fox, but with more air, less phantom, and a lot more blaster
wolf: combo-MASTER in this game!! grabs, air attacks, side b combos plus great smash attacks even if you don't link it into side b, and an INSANELY STRONG up B
captain falcon: in case it hasn't been said enough, CHAIN GRABS CHAIN GRABS CHAIN GRABS!!! and never forget the side b's and awesome knee finishers
i really don't want to keep going, someone else take over x_x
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Thanks for all that matchup advice, dood. That's what this topic needs. Yoshi cannot chaingrab MM, though.
Anyhow, no one is going to convince me that Minus would not be better off without Metal Mario.
Continuing with my observations against the CPU...
Bowser might be the worst MM matchup of all. His only effective attacks seem to be Neutral B, F-Air, and F-Tilt. Everything else is too slow, or not strong enough to flinch MM. Plus, MM can jump over or Cape Neutral B easily. Bowser has a very hard time here.
Anyhow, no one is going to convince me that Minus would not be better off without Metal Mario.
Continuing with my observations against the CPU...
Bowser might be the worst MM matchup of all. His only effective attacks seem to be Neutral B, F-Air, and F-Tilt. Everything else is too slow, or not strong enough to flinch MM. Plus, MM can jump over or Cape Neutral B easily. Bowser has a very hard time here.