How to fight Metal Mario as each character

[Glyph]

Hope those games helped illustrate how easy it can be to just evade MM for a short period of time, and even punish him since his attacks are really broadcast. Best solution I picked up outside of a chain throw is stay in the air (just like regular Mario).

 

[NEWB]

That's actually more effective on mm since he lands quickly.

 

[Smilindeth]

Don't see metal as the problem on him. He's just designed to work well in most situations.
As I said to Bent during our matches, only part I would raise complaints on and ***** about would be his dash attack combo'ing into itself so well.

 

[NEWB]

It's really easy to deal with once you learn that jabs and dtilts clang with it at least. It could stand to not combo into itself either. Or if it did, it should lose the ability to spike people on the ledge. It's small things like that that make some guys overbearing.as long as you could combo into other stuff, I don't mind having his dash attack lose its lock. Can you DI out of it?

 

[Bent 00]

Thanks to WastedCrits, SmilinDeth, and Glyph for testing my (Metal) Mario. However, I think I didn't really play the best example of Mario last night. My friend's Mario is significantly better overall... I use F-Air MUCH more often than he does, and he rarely uses FLUDD like I do. His game is mostly "stay on the ground, sidestep dodge a LOT, and punish mistakes with Smashes and Dash Attacks", compared to my aggressive, jump-heavy playstyle.

Anyhow, perhaps the Metal Cap isn't as overpowered as I thought it was. But it's still annoying how it encourages you to suddenly switch to being evasive; it definitely slows down the pace of the game and stalls the match frequently. My opinion on the Metal Cap is mostly unchanged, but I do see that it's not impossible to combat it now -- just very difficult for a few characters.

The Metal Cap is "the icing on the cake"; Mario is more than strong enough without it. I think it's an unjustified buff to a character that would be more balanced without it, put in only because it's a nod to SM64 and Metal Mario's appearances in Smash.

If the Metal Cap is left in, I hope other characters will be given equally powerful new taunts. A cloaking device taunt for Snake would be nothing compared to this...

 

[Glyph]

I'm not talking about your Mario, I'm just talking about the times you went Metal. He can't make MM go any faster that you did, that's just his speed. The way I evaded yours would be effective against any MM, and if they weren't it would be a credit to that player being very good with using MM.

Metal is not always a buff. I kept HOPING you'd go metal as kirby since any grab was a TON of free damage on you, and if I had been able to time it better (which I would if I practiced a bit) I would have ended on an up throw instead which would have likely turned that free damage into a free stock.

But even if your character doesn't have an option against MM, that's not a bad thing! One player can't expect to set the pace the entire game. Sure it might put your characters at a disadvantage, but that means the Mario player is getting control (and he deserves to if he manages to finish his taunt). Considering the only truly safe time to attempt it is during a star KO, the opponent can just sit on the respawn platform to significantly damper his metal time. One you do drop down, just get airborne. MM can't stay in the air long, so if you air dodge as he comes to hit you then you'll be fine 90% of the time. Not only that, but you can even drop down with him and try to land and attack after he whiffs. You're not going to kill him, but that's no reason to not land a few free hits here and there.

Metal Mario is:
-Catastrophic to use against characters with easy chainthrows
-easily evaded
-on a timer

The combination of those three elements make it something that needs no further tweaking outside of a new animation to match the startup time.

 

[Bent 00]

If your character doesn't have an option against MM, that's not a bad thing! One player can't expect to set the pace the entire game.

Not having a viable option against a character except "Keep Away" is definitely a bad thing for a fast-paced fighter that rewards aggressive gameplay. Whoever is the most skilled should be setting the pace of a match, but even a "C" grade player is probably going to KO a grade "A" player at least once -- and when that happens, Metal Time! The "C" grade player is suddenly controlling game pace. The Metal Cap is a Handicap, or a crutch, like rubberbanding AI in a racing game. It's a few steps shy of giving Mario a Final Smash after every KO. Then again, Mario's FS is so bad, the Metal Cap is probably better in some cases...!

Sure it might put your characters at a disadvantage, but that means the Mario player is getting control (and he deserves to if he manages to finish his taunt).

Mario doesn't deserve to own the first ~10 seconds of my next stock after each time he KO's me. As-is, he's not earning the Metal Cap; it's practically GIVEN to him. And he doesn't even need it!

Considering the only truly safe time to attempt it is during a star KO, the opponent can just sit on the respawn platform to significantly damper his metal time

In my experience, you've got just enough time to put on the cap after ANY KO, as long as you start the taunt immediately after the KO. And advising someone to camp on the respawn platform? It works, but does that sound like Minus to you? To me, Minus is about fast-paced gameplay in which you have to play aggressively or aggressively defensively (baiting and punishing) to win. Minus isn't campy vBrawl, and I don't want it to be slow or campy at all, personally.

Metal Mario is:
-easily evaded

Not if you're playing a character with low jumps and/or a weak aerial game, or a big/slower character. A stage FD's size gets cramped quick for them.

 

[Glyph]

Sounds like it doesn't fit YOUR idea of minus, not necessarily what minus really is. Having to play defensively happens, and will continue to happen. Look at how little impact metal had on our games last night. Next to zero against Ness, and in fact it worked heavily against you in the Kirby games. Its not a crutch, its a part of who Mario IS in minus. Its no more of a crutch than being able to short hop out of Falcon's Kick or Zelda's ranged hitboxes. As far as comparing it to a Final Smash, thats just absurd. There are MASSIVE downsides to metal, whether or not YOU as a player can exploit them shouldn't skew your opinion on it.

10 seconds is not a long time. And its not like Mario is guaranteed a kill, he's not even guaranteed a HIT. NOTHING is given to him for free, he still needs to go out and hit you to make things happen. You still have a shield. You still have dodges. Him not -needing- it is a moot point, no one NEEDS almost anything they have in Minus. They're there because ITS FUN. Its also balanced, which is a big part of making sure it STAYS fun.

As for evading MM, if you're playing characters with those characteristics you have a bad matchup against Mario. Pick up people who have better answers if its an uphill battle, I'd recommend Kirby very highly.

 

[NEWB]

Sounds to me like mm should have cooldown. Even though I basically side with glyph here, I think mm is too heavily emphasized as is, like previously with ultrataunt lucario. I suggest a 2 min cooldown, since matches don't last more than 4 mins in my experience, Mario gets to use it at least once and at most 3 times. It should also get it's speed restored to how it was preciously. The problem here wasn't that the taunt was too quick, it was that it could be used frequently. This way, it cant be used frequently, and Mario will have to survive/murder his opponent to earn using the metal cap.

Look, the idea that you have to pick a character to counter mm IS silly. This idea makes a lot of sense to me. This way, disadvantaged characters against mm could avoid mm by simply kicking Mario's butt. As is now, metal is pretty much always used when he gets a KO, which isn't very interesting to me. Whether or not the matchup is good, mm DOES stall the match because mm will typically not die from being metal. Limiting it this way seems more fair to me while maintaining the awesomeness that is including mm in the game.

The reason why I suggested the taunt be restored to its former speed is because this would give Mario more freedom to use the move strategically, while making it impossible to spam cuz the cooldown. This will make the timing and use of mm far more fun and interesting.

As for fighting mm, see what glyph said I guess. We can still post mm strategies for each character guys....

 

[Glyph]

I'm not saying you NEED to pick a new character, I'm saying if you're having a hard time with the ones you're using you have the option of using someone with a little more fleshed out defense to it.

 

[Bent 00]

Sounds like it doesn't fit YOUR idea of minus, not necessarily what minus really is.

Anybody else want slow and campy gameplay in Minus? Anyone?

Having to play defensively happens, and will continue to happen.

In what other matchup is there regularly a period where one player should play Keep Away for a set amount of time?

I can't think of any.

Look at how little impact metal had on our games last night. Next to zero against Ness, and in fact it worked heavily against you in the Kirby games.

Obviously, any character who can chaingrab or otherwise lock Metal Mario has a big advantage, and the Mario player should not go Metal unless he's at critically high damage anyway. Kirby has a chainthrow, Ness is floaty, and both of them have a good aerial game. Neither of them are characters that have a problem with Metal Mario, so don't dismiss him just because they can handle him easily.

Its not a crutch, its a part of who Mario IS in minus.

It is a crutch IMO, and it's only a small part of Minus Mario. If it were removed, Mario would still have plenty in his moveset that makes him Minus-y:

- Awesome Dash Attack
- Reverse FLUDD
- Great multipurpose D-Air
- Double Up-B

and more. Need I go on?

Its no more of a crutch than being able to short hop out of Falcon's Kick or Zelda's ranged hitboxes.

The difference there is that Falcon's and Zelda's abilities are constant. You cannot wait them out like you can the Metal Cap. Therefore, you're not encouraged to Keep Away and stall the match. Now, if Falcon's Down Taunt set him on fire, damaged him steadily, and made him resistant to stun/flinch/knockback for ~12 seconds, and it took as long as Mario's current Side Taunt to execute... Then you'd have a comparison. And people would complain about that the same way I'm complaining about Metal Mario.

As far as comparing it to a Final Smash, thats just absurd. There are MASSIVE downsides to metal, whether or not YOU as a player can exploit them shouldn't skew your opinion on it.

I did say "a few steps shy" of the Cap being like a Final Smash. Think about it: If Mario's playing against a character who cannot chaingrab or lock him in place, maybe not even stun or flinch him safely, which do you think he would want on his Side Taunt if given a choice: Final Smash or Metal Cap? Mario's Final Smash is one of the easiest to dodge in the game as-is, whereas if you're playing on a stage the size of FD or smaller, it's unlikely that opponent is going to be able to avoid you entirely. I'd pick the Metal Cap over the Final Smash in that situation.

10 seconds is not a long time. And its not like Mario is guaranteed a kill, he's not even guaranteed a HIT. NOTHING is given to him for free, he still needs to go out and hit you to make things happen.

Those seconds add up though, and you playing Keep Away can end up being a large part of the match when it shouldn't be. I never said Mario is "given" any KO's or even hits -- what's GIVEN to him is Metal status after every KO. As long as his feet are on the ground, and he's not standing directly underneath the respawn platform in a small stage, there's no way you're getting to him in time to stop him from donning that Cap. Unless you're playing Sonic, maybe.

You still have a shield. You still have dodges. Him not -needing- it is a moot point, no one NEEDS almost anything they have in Minus. They're there because ITS FUN. Its also balanced, which is a big part of making sure it STAYS fun.

Assuming you're on a stage the size of FD or smaller, and your character doesn't have good aerial mobility, you can...

- Try to shield and/or shieldgrab Metal Mario. His Dash Attack is likely to poke right through your shield.
- Try to sidestep dodge. Metal Mario's Dash Attack stays out too long to sidestep, and it's easy for him to punish mistimed sidesteps with his super-fast Up Smash or Down Smashes.
- Try to jump and/or airdodge out of the way. Metal Mario will have one (or three) Up Smashes waiting for you once you come back down.
- Try to roll behind Metal Mario's Dash Attack or clang with it. I haven't tried these approaches enough to comment.

As for evading MM, if you're playing characters with those characteristics you have a bad matchup against Mario. Pick up people who have better answers if its an uphill battle, I'd recommend Kirby very highly.

Mario's Metal Cap gives him more than the acceptable amount of advantage against certain characters IMO. A character like Falcon or Zelda would be able to handle him otherwise, but no, you'd rather have novelty over game balance, right? I don't believe I properly demonstrated Metal Mario's advantage against such characters in my matches last night.

Sounds to me like mm should have cooldown. Even though I basically side with glyph here, I think mm is too heavily emphasized as is, like previously with ultrataunt lucario. I suggest a 2 min cooldown, since matches don't last more than 4 mins in my experience, Mario gets to use it at least once and at most 3 times. It should also get it's speed restored to how it was preciously. The problem here wasn't that the taunt was too quick, it was that it could be used frequently. This way, it cant be used frequently, and Mario will have to survive/murder his opponent to earn using the metal cap.

The Metal Cap is definitely too heavily emphasized; certain characters end up playing "Metal Mario" nearly as much as regular Mario.

Which gives me an idea: You know how you can hold R to play as Giga Bowser in Project M? How about making it so that you can hold R to play as (always) Metal Mario? It's hard to practice against him properly as it is now, unless you know a Mario mainer personally, or use that "Player 2 is always Metal" code I posted.

Look, the idea that you have to pick a character to counter mm IS silly. This idea makes a lot of sense to me. This way, disadvantaged characters against mm could avoid mm by simply kicking Mario's butt. As is now, metal is pretty much always used when he gets a KO, which isn't very interesting to me. Whether or not the matchup is good, mm DOES stall the match because mm will typically not die from being metal. Limiting it this way seems more fair to me while maintaining the awesomeness that is including mm in the game.

When we start giving up playing entire characters just because of a taunt, I think someone has lost focus on what's most important: Gameplay balance, pace, and flow. Not novelty.

The reason why I suggested the taunt be restored to its former speed is because this would give Mario more freedom to use the move strategically, while making it impossible to spam cuz the cooldown. This will make the timing and use of mm far more fun and interesting.

If the Metal Cap taunt was sped up back to it's MAX 1.0 speed and given a two minute cooldown, what would really be changed? He could only use it 1-3 times per 4-minute match, but that's how often he can use it now. The only difference would be that it would become easier for him to don it in time, so he could use it after knocking his foe far away instead of only having time after a KO. This would make Metal Mario more of a pain to fight, because you couldn't rely on the respawn platform to use as a buffer.

Overall game balance would be improved if the Metal Cap were removed. Why should it be left in? Novelty by itself is not a good reason.

As for fighting mm, see what glyph said I guess. We can still post mm strategies for each character guys....

I don't think Glyph isn't seeing Metal Mario from the perspective of a character who is heavily disadvantaged to him. All of Glyph's mains would have no problem with Metal Mario, even if Glyph was only half as skilled as he is now.

I'm not saying you NEED to pick a new character, I'm saying if you're having a hard time with the ones you're using you have the option of using someone with a little more fleshed out defense to it.

I shouldn't be heavily encouraged to switch to a different character just because of a taunt. I could handle Mario as Falcon or Zelda with no problem if it weren't for that Metal Cap.

 

[NEWB]

No smart Mario player would use it at the start of a match. He also can't set up for it that quickly. For the most part, Mario would only be able to do it twice MAYBE, at least once. Your assuming all Mario players are that good, which is a little shortsighted. The maybe is dependent on how well the opponent can beat Mario, and Mario would have to work for it by fighting back. This is much different and more fair then before since he could use it more in max 1.0 and he would use it less this way compared to now.

What about 2:15 for the cooldown? Anymore time would be unreasonable at that point.

 

[Bent 00]

No smart Mario player would use it at the start of a match.

Obviously, yeah.

He also can't set up for it that quickly.

You might be surprised. All it takes is one strong Smash or B-Air to get a significantly damaged opponent far enough away for you to be safe enough to don the Cap.

For the most part, Mario would only be able to do it twice MAYBE, at least once.

In your suggested setup? Yeah, sounds about right in a 4 stock, 4-8 minute match.

Your assuming all Mario players are that good, which is a little shortsighted.

I maintain that a game should be balanced primarily based on characters at their maximum potential. If anything's shortsighted, it's not focusing on that high-level potential, and looking more at how average players perform.

The maybe is dependent on how well the opponent can beat Mario, and Mario would have to work for it by fighting back. This is much different and more fair then before since he could use it more in max 1.0 and he would use it less this way compared to now.

When attempting to balance Metal Mario, please do not consider characters who have no problem against him. Think about the characters whose matchups are suddenly significantly worsened when Mario dons the Metal Cap. Falcon and Zelda for starters.

Also, try to imagine a Metal Mario that sticks to the ground mostly, and plays aggressively defensively; approaches, baits and punishes, effectively running you off the stage. If you hang off the ledge too frequently, he'll run or jump off and stage spike you with B-Air. If you climb or jump back onto the stage with an attack, he'll sidestep dodge and use Up Smash or Down Smash. If you jump over him back onto the stage, Up Smash is waiting. If you get out of range of Up/Down Smash, here comes Dash Attack followed up by more Up/Down Smashes. If all that doesn't make you not want to ledge camp against Metal Mario, don't forget he can Cape your recovery or fall below you and stage spike you with Up B too. If your character can't combat Metal Mario safely, it seems that the best evasive maneuver is to just keep jumping and air dodging, but he's going to predict where you fall eventually, and Up Smash or Dash Attack you. I haven't tried rolling behind his Dash Attack or clanking with it enough yet to comment on that strategy.

On a stage no larger than FD, dodging Metal Mario is like trying to dodge an angry bull in a small room if you don't have great aerial mobility.

What about 2:15 for the cooldown? Anymore time would be unreasonable at that point.

- Adding a two minute cooldown, and reverting the startup speed to MAX 1.0 speed would make Metal Mario more of a pain to fight against.
- Adding a two minute cooldown, and keeping the MAX 1.0 speed would be a good compromise. Mario would go Metal around 33% less often in a 4-stock match. He would still be annoying and would still stall matches against characters with no better option than to Keep Away.
- The best option is to remove the Metal Cap entirely. No one has given any reason to keep it in other than because of novelty.

 

[Bent 00]

Accidentally double-posted, ignore this post.

 

[Pin Clock]

Anybody else want slow and campy gameplay in Minus? Anyone?

Calling Metal Mario, someone who can't really do anything unless up close, "slow and campy" is a bit of a stretch don't you think?

In what other matchup is there regularly a period where one player should play Keep Away for a set amount of time?

I can't think of any.

Charizard actually plays a solid keep away game, Link zones whoever the heck he wants, ROB can zone well, Zelda fights from a distance, Samus is also a huge possessor of projectiles, Snake has some very solid keepaway and stage control, Olimar's just stupid right now, TL if you count his traps, Yoshi can harass with eggs....I can go on.

Obviously, any character who can chaingrab or otherwise lock Metal Mario has a big advantage, and the Mario player should not go Metal unless he's at critically high damage anyway. Kirby has a chainthrow, Ness is floaty, and both of them have a good aerial game. Neither of them are characters that have a problem with Metal Mario, so don't dismiss him just because they can handle him easily.

Some characters will have problems with things other characters don't have a problem with. That's a part of how fighting games work.

The difference there is that Falcon's and Zelda's abilities are constant. You cannot wait them out like you can the Metal Cap. Therefore, you're not encouraged to Keep Away and stall the match. Now, if Falcon's Down Taunt set him on fire, damaged him steadily, and made him resistant to stun/flinch/knockback for ~12 seconds, and it took as long as Mario's current Side Taunt to execute... Then you'd have a comparison. And people would complain about that the same way I'm complaining about Metal Mario.

Falcon's charged punch is not a constant either, and he can charge it easier than Mario can become metal. Granted Metal Mario is a stronger buff than charged punch, but it still stands. Falcon's charged punch can break a shield whenever he pleases, or finish off a combo with a much stronger hit than normal. That comparison aside, Mario setting up Metal is a part of his character and game.

The Metal Cap is definitely too heavily emphasized; certain characters end up playing "Metal Mario" nearly as much as regular Mario.

Again, a huge exaggeration. There is much more time spent as mario than Metal Mario in any given match, and against certain characters Metal is even a deterrent. In addition to it no longer being as easy to set up as it was before.

When we start giving up playing entire characters just because of a taunt, I think someone has lost focus on what's most important: Gameplay balance, pace, and flow. Not novelty.

Learning more than one character is encouraged in fighting games as one character shouldn't have the answer to everything and some characters having strengths of the weaknesses of your mains. Minus is no exception when it comes to encouraging learning the cast.

Metal Mario will not be removed as he's a cool aspect of Mario that is also an option for him to consider, we will be considering some other alterations to the mode. But I will say that Metal Mario is nowhere near as devastating as he's being made out to be.

 

[Bent 00]

Calling Metal Mario, someone who can't really do anything unless up close, "slow and campy" is a bit of a stretch don't you think?

I wasn't calling Metal Mario himself slow and campy. I was referring to how he encourages the defending player to make the match slow and campy by camping on the spawn platform and running away from him until the Metal wears off.

Charizard actually plays a solid keep away game, Link zones whoever the heck he wants, ROB can zone well, Zelda fights from a distance, Samus is also a huge possessor of projectiles, Snake has some very solid keepaway and stage control, Olimar's just stupid right now, TL if you count his traps, Yoshi can harass with eggs....I can go on.

Those are all examples of zoning, which are not time-limited. The defending player knows he cannot wait out any of those moves, so there's no point in running away or otherwise stalling, because those threats aren't going anywhere! The difference is that you can stall out Metal Mario, and this is heavily encouraged for certain characters.

Some characters will have problems with things other characters don't have a problem with. That's a part of how fighting games work.

If a character is only put at a significant disadvantage because of a TAUNT, then it should be considered: "Is this novelty taunt really worth keeping in at the expense of character balance? This character would have a much more fair shot at this character if I took this taunt out..."

Falcon's charged punch is not a constant either, and he can charge it easier than Mario can become metal. Granted Metal Mario is a stronger buff than charged punch, but it still stands. Falcon's charged punch can break a shield whenever he pleases, or finish off a combo with a much stronger hit than normal. That comparison aside, Mario setting up Metal is a part of his character and game.

I was not talking about Falcon's super taunt, as it is not a good comparison. You cannot stall out a charged Falcon Punch, it's going to come out whenever Falcon wants it to once it's ready.

The Metal Cap is definitely too heavily emphasized; certain characters end up playing "Metal Mario" nearly as much as regular Mario.

Again, a huge exaggeration. There is much more time spent as mario than Metal Mario in any given match, and against certain characters Metal is even a deterrent. In addition to it no longer being as easy to set up as it was before.

The first part of my statement there is a fact, and while the second part may be an exaggeration, it's not as hard as you'd think to set up the Metal Cap against certain characters. As I've already asked, please do not consider characters who have no problem against Metal Mario for the purpose of this discussion. Just because he's no problem for most of the cast does not mean that he's not a big problem for a few characters.

When we start giving up playing entire characters just because of a taunt, I think someone has lost focus on what's most important: Gameplay balance, pace, and flow. Not novelty.

Learning more than one character is encouraged in fighting games as one character shouldn't have the answer to everything and some characters having strengths of the weaknesses of your mains. Minus is no exception when it comes to encouraging learning the cast.

I play more than 10 characters on a regular basis, but Falcon and Zelda are my favorite two to play as, and both of them happen to be disadvantaged against Mario just because of a taunt.

Metal Mario will not be removed as he's a cool aspect of Mario that is also an option for him to consider, we will be considering some other alterations to the mode. But I will say that Metal Mario is nowhere near as devastating as he's being made out to be.

I'm still waiting for any reasons why the Metal Cap should be kept in, other than "novelty".

Metal Mario is not "devastating" even to the characters Mario would not otherwise have an advantage against, but going Metal turns matches against those characters from mostly fair fights into ones where they are suddenly disadvantaged, and are encouraged to stall the match.

 

[Bent 00]

Whatever happened to this official stance on taunts, anyway? Mario's Metal Cap goes directly against it.

I definitely hold that taunts, on a whole, should not have consistently useful gameplay effects because they should be, by nature, taunts. If a taunt DOES have a tangible use, it should still be the most situational use in the character's entire moveset, and even at its best and most potent it should be primarily there for trolling purposes, such as Wario's side taunt fart or Ganon's ability to dodge final smashes with his sword taunt. If a taunt is used to kill, it should be incredibly humiliating due to the difficulty and obviousness of pulling off such a feat, like with Luigi's kick or Jigglypuff's gravity.

Source: http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-6 ... #pid158086

 

[Glyph]

Ok, last post from me on the issue. I typed this up a while ago and forgot to hit send, but gunna go ahead and post it even though Pin hits a lot of the same points I do.

Sounds like it doesn't fit YOUR idea of minus, not necessarily what minus really is.

Anybody else want slow and campy gameplay in Minus? Anyone?

Mario players?

In what other matchup is there regularly a period where one player should play Keep Away for a set amount of time?

I can't think of any.

Hello my name is Zelda, the character where you play keep away the ENTIRE game. Zelda's at her worst in close range. I'm sure you'll point out that the opponent doesn't need to run, but the core concept of having a need to play defensively is still very much there.

Obviously, any character who can chaingrab or otherwise lock Metal Mario has a big advantage, and the Mario player should not go Metal unless he's at critically high damage anyway. Kirby has a chainthrow, Ness is floaty, and both of them have a good aerial game. Neither of them are characters that have a problem with Metal Mario, so don't dismiss him just because they can handle him easily.

So the problem here is we have different definitions of broken. You say 'characters that beat Bent's characters are broken'. I say 'characters that beat the entire cast are broken'.

It is a crutch IMO, and it's only a small part of Minus Mario. If it were removed, Mario would still have plenty in his moveset that makes him Minus-y:

- Awesome Dash Attack
- Reverse FLUDD
- Great multipurpose D-Air
- Double Up-B

and more. Need I go on?

Falcon already has a lot of good approaches, we should just remove the falcon kick since he has a lot of other good things already. See the problem with that logic?

The difference there is that Falcon's and Zelda's abilities are constant. You cannot wait them out like you can the Metal Cap. Therefore, you're not encouraged to Keep Away and stall the match. Now, if Falcon's Down Taunt set him on fire, damaged him steadily, and made him resistant to stun/flinch/knockback for ~12 seconds, and it took as long as Mario's current Side Taunt to execute... Then you'd have a comparison. And people would complain about that the same way I'm complaining about Metal Mario.

....you STILL have the options to avoid him and have it not matter at all, but you DON'T HAVE TO. There were plenty of times I went after you as Kirby without any serious reproductions because its still just Mario. His moves don't get any better. They don't come out any faster. Again, if a move isn't broken against the entire cast then its a MATCHUP problem, not a balance issue.

I did say "a few steps shy" of the Cap being like a Final Smash. Think about it: If Mario's playing against a character who cannot chaingrab or lock him in place, maybe not even stun or flinch him safely, which do you think he would want on his Side Taunt if given a choice: Final Smash or Metal Cap? Mario's Final Smash is one of the easiest to dodge in the game as-is, whereas if you're playing on a stage the size of FD or smaller, it's unlikely that opponent is going to be able to avoid you entirely. I'd pick the Metal Cap over the Final Smash in that situation.

You did, but to compare a move that makes a guy heavy to one that fires a massive hitbox across the stage (while you're invincible) is not just a few steps apart. The metal cap is not, even if some characters have a hard time with it, a free ANYTHING. You still need to EARN the hits. With the FS, your ONLY option is get out of the way. MM you're more than capable of fighting back.

Those seconds add up though, and you playing Keep Away can end up being a large part of the match when it shouldn't be. I never said Mario is "given" any KO's or even hits -- what's GIVEN to him is Metal status after every KO. As long as his feet are on the ground, and he's not standing directly underneath the respawn platform in a small stage, there's no way you're getting to him in time to stop him from donning that Cap. Unless you're playing Sonic, maybe.

Why? WHY should there not be moments of 'oh god he's metal I better back off?' Because its harder for you? I stopped you multiple times from getting it on, its far from impossible to stop even with a slow character like Kirby.

- Try to shield and/or shieldgrab Metal Mario. His Dash Attack is likely to poke right through your shield.
- Try to sidestep dodge. Metal Mario's Dash Attack stays out too long to sidestep, and it's easy for him to punish mistimed sidesteps with his super-fast Up Smash or Down Smashes.
- Try to jump and/or airdodge out of the way. Metal Mario will have one (or three) Up Smashes waiting for you once you come back down.
- Try to roll behind Metal Mario's Dash Attack or clang with it. I haven't tried these approaches enough to comment.

But you CAN shieldgrab him. Its not EASY, but it is possible. Don't spotdodge. Don't float down onto him because yes he'll usmash you (you should be jumping either towards or away him anyway, not straight up). And your BEST option is the only one that you haven't considered, which is the roll behind. I haven't worked on clanging with it because I haven't had a need to, but it would be fairly easy to implement that as well.

Mario's Metal Cap gives him more than the acceptable amount of advantage against certain characters IMO. A character like Falcon or Zelda would be able to handle him otherwise, but no, you'd rather have novelty over game balance, right? I don't believe I properly demonstrated Metal Mario's advantage against such characters in my matches last night.

This IS balance. That's like saying 'man I'd have a great matchup against olimar if it weren't for that damn fsmash!' OF COURSE the Mario player will abuse the move that gives him the best edge over his opponent, and considering its on a timer (ITS ON A TIMER) his advantage will be incredibly short lived. There's only so many attacks MM can do in the time period provided to him, if the games are close enough for that to be that big of an impact then the Mario straight up beat you.

Overall game balance would be improved if the Metal Cap were removed. Why should it be left in? Novelty by itself is not a good reason.

Gunna boil all my points down to this: The problem is not Metal Mario. You have options against it, even if they are hard. It only lasts a few seconds. If you can't beat MM, then you can't beat Mario. We shouldn't punish Mario players because your characters have a hard time against it when there are other characters that balance the move out.

I don't think Glyph isn't seeing Metal Mario from the perspective of a character who is heavily disadvantaged to him. All of Glyph's mains would have no problem with Metal Mario, even if Glyph was only half as skilled as he is now.

If MM had an edge over every character, your argument would be solid. I have proven he does not. The move is fine as is.

I shouldn't be heavily encouraged to switch to a different character just because of a taunt. I could handle Mario as Falcon or Zelda with no problem if it weren't for that Metal Cap.

Then learn how to play around MM, its not going anywhere. Sorry to be blunt but at this point I'm like 3 of 4 of these posts in and you're still not getting the point I'm trying to make. YOU need to just practice against it. Its not impossible to beat, even with characters like Zelda or Falcon.

EDIT: Bent I'm not sure why you'd even bring that post up since all it shows is that every single member of the minus BRoom has been aware of the metal mario taunt and found it not broken.

EDIT2: FALCON CAN CHAINTHROW METAL MARIO WITH IS DTHROW JUST AS WELL AS KIRBY CAN. MARIO CANNOT DI OUT UNTIL AROUND 180%

 

[Bent 00]

So if a move is only OP against a few characters who would otherwise have a fair chance, it's not unbalanced? Seriously?

The main reason I want the Metal Cap gone is because it frequently stalls matches.

Still waiting on reasons other than "novelty" to keep the Metal Cap in...

Might as well make a list of who wants it to stay, and who wants it gone:

Keep the Metal Cap in: 5 total
Glyph
NEWB
Pin Clock
Bent 00's local friends: FSU and TBONE (Mario mains)

Take the Metal Cap out: 8 total
Bent 00 and local friends: ADAM, JOSh, MJF, STONE, TOAST, XVKS, and YOSH

As you can see, it's not just "Bent's characters" who are complaining. Regardless of whether it stays in the official build or not, looks like the majority of my local groups want it gone, so I'll be removing it from the local build.

Also, I've sent a message to Thunda-Moo asking him to weigh in on this, considering his stance on taunts I quoted earlier.

 

[Glyph]

Keep the Metal Cap In: The Minus Back Room

You're free to take it out for your group, but its not going anywhere for the official build.

Did you not see me post that Falcon's dthrow is an INESCAPABLE chain throw til like 180%? If you can give me a good example of him being OP (and I mean SERIOUSLY OP, not 'oh no I have to play a little different for a few SECONDS) then yeah you're in the right. But I'm telling you right now the fact that it took me and Gold like 2 attempts to get the chain throw timing down (that's ignoring that the chain throw exists in the first place and you still consider it OP) does not bode well for your case.

 

[NEWB]

I go to school and play minus with people. There are 10 plus there that play minus and I love it. If we are seriously using numbers of course. You do have a point about there being inconsistency, but I see that as more of a "minus to me has always been very disorganized".

Taunts that would also therefore be wrong are ness, lucario, TL, luigi dtaunt..... Many. Not the ones that are mostly impractical like pits, but do something useful that effects the game. Kinda confused as well. I know we aren't about to remove all of those.

 

[Bent 00]

Guess we just have to disagree on this, Glyph.

As for Falcon's chainthrow on MM, it's too risky to go for since you're likely to get dodged and smashed, and even if you do land it, it's very easy to mess up and let Mario get free.

NEWB, I don't have any other problems with Minus except the Metal Cap taunt. All those other taunts you listed are balanced.

Would you mind polling your group regarding Metal Mario?

There is no other move in the game that encourages stalling a match.

Match stalling is bad for game pace and flow, it's not fun, and it's bad for Minus.

You don't see anything that encourages stalling in Project M, do you?

WHEN IS STALLING EVER A GOOD THING?!

 

[Glyph]

Beeeeeent if you are not consistent with the chain throw that's YOUR fault, not the game's! JUST PRACTICE THE TIMING AND METAL MARIO IS FREE DAMAGE FOR YOU! Yeah he can dodge, but so can you! Read his spotdodge! Delay the grab and punish! The only reason you need to stall is because you've made it clear you have a hard time against MM, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to stall. Practice putting pressure on him, like I've said several times now its still just Mario. He's not hitting any harder. He's not hitting any faster. You just can't knock him away as easily.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Bent, even in lag I was able to chaingrab glyph as MM with Falcon. Just let it slide. There's nothing broken about the cap. Just because it changes how you play against the character temporarily doesn't make it broken.

 

[Bent 00]

Glyph, why would I risk going for a grab when I can stall out Metal Mario? The Mario main I play against is crazy good at sidestep dodging and predicting his opponents. I've played Falcon against him enough to see that keeping away is always the better option.

Stalling should never be encouraged in Smash without items.

I've said all I've got to say on this too, guys...

I just don't understand why you're all okay with stalling being encouraged. Stalling makes interesting matches boring quickly.