Gonna keep it in this thread.

[Bashdemears]

So instead of ranting all over the fourms and irc, ill keep my thoughts in this thread. Sound good? Gonna try and keep it as not angry as possible.

Yeah so if you've been on the irc you'd know how much I hate 3.Q. I'm speaking for myself when I say that I love Minus. I love minus as much as I love melee. When I showed up on the forums this was my kind of place. The players were involved in the game development and the developers listened. ( Or so it seemed.)

It's not so much the changes themselves. It's the fact that there are two months of discussions about how to improve 3.5. Almost none of it was seen in 3.Q. We have a very small community and most of the players are involved in this game's development. You'd expect our input to have a lot more gravity to them. Instead we got changes for no reason. Changes to things that nobody felt was needed. Changes to things that like one person wanted. (Looking at you Link.) Things people often suggested or people thought needed some tweaks were outright ignored. Basically the BR pulled a Sakurai and ignored what the community wanted.

As a member of this community, a lover of smash, and a lover of Minus, I am very dissapointed in 3.Q.

 

[Thor]

I will say this - the Link changes came out of left field, and the only thing I know was actively asked for was the dtilt shift (which actually sort of was my idea - I had suggested somewhere that it be a bit longer and pop up instead of spike so that you can hit them offstage even farther), and I think that was only because I got lucky and suggested something that would work, not because people actually cared about my input on Zelda (though admittedly I don't think there's a reason to care about my Zelda input, since I don't play her).

Also saying it now - Falco would LOVE to have an option where AAA did three jabs, but hitting twice NEVER did the third rapid jab - I know I would love this and it certainly shouldn't bother other Falco mains (I think owo might appreciate it too - no risk of rapid jab when he's trying to jab -> gatling me).

After going over the characters, the Captain Falcon changes were appreciated by people and requested (Bent is a hard lobbyist though - that's not a bad thing in this context either), the DK change was requested by a gametester (though it was reasonable since pretty sure it was nerfed from vBrawl lol), Warlock Punch received the world's tiniest buff, NS mode is fixed, glitches (again, because they existed, not because people actively sought to remove them - namely healing, Kirby hats, and Pichu wild charge), ROB nerfs (Which were fashionable with the devs anyway), Roy fixes (when he sucked to start, so yeah), and Sheik getting a useful chain/jump adjustment. That's it, and if you reread the list, that's 5 characters with a few changes, 4 small changes [dtilt included], and stuff that was never supposed to be there. Everything else is super random (like, no one cared about Ness why'd he get nerfed? He's already crap tier... and these TL buffs are... odd...). I think, funny enough, that if devs had fixed glitches and listened to complaints instead of dreaming them up or just using their private ones (and we'll ignore my personal Samus changes - I'm looking at you, Pichu, and your sorry state...), the changelog would be shorter and people would be happier.

Like, what if this was changelog?
Pichu: buffs
Roy: buffs
Captain Falcon: rapid jab thing and Falcon Punch
Zelda: Dtilt changed
ROB: nerfed a bit
Ganondorf: gets a cancel on WP, utilt clears away TL arrows
Ike: NS mode no self damage and counter choices in NS mode
Various glitches fixed, like Samus foot hitboxes and Pichu wild charge
Samus: aerials changed
Sheik: Chain does not suck
DK: Punch fix
TL: A few buffs since Ganondorf can wreck him by insta-clearing arrows [hey that would be fair I think].
Link: jab buffed

And that was all? [Obiviously I'm abbreviating here, but you get the idea]. I think people would nearly unanimously be much happier with 3.Q if this was the changelist (and I included nothing in this list I actively sought prior to 3.Q coming out, except the Ganon utilt buff - MK dtilt transcendence...).

One of two results should come of this: the devs should tell us to shut up and let them code (not wise in my opinion...) or they should write out what people actually want, list it out along with their proposed changes, explain rationale for theirs and the rejected changes, allow for some debate (they do get final say...), and THEN release the update. These are my opinions, because I don't think people want 3.Z or whatever it will be called to have this much of a reaction from a few different players next time.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

So instead of ranting all over the fourms and irc, ill keep my thoughts in this thread. Sound good? Gonna try and keep it as not angry as possible.

Yeah so if you've been on the irc you'd know how much I hate 3.Q. I'm speaking for myself when I say that I love Minus. I love minus as much as I love melee. When I showed up on the forums this was my kind of place. The players were involved in the game development and the developers listened. ( Or so it seemed.)

It's not so much the changes themselves. It's the fact that there are two months of discussions about how to improve 3.5. Almost none of it was seen in 3.Q. We have a very small community and most of the players are involved in this game's development. You'd expect our input to have a lot more gravity to them. Instead we got changes for no reason. Changes to things that nobody felt was needed. Changes to things that like one person wanted. (Looking at you Link.) Things people often suggested or people thought needed some tweaks were outright ignored. Basically the BR pulled a Sakurai and ignored what the community wanted.

As a member of this community, a lover of smash, and a lover of Minus, I am very dissapointed in 3.Q.

this is also a case of almost every major dev out there too.

 

[Bashdemears]

this is also a case of almost every major dev out there too.

We aren't major in any sense of the word.

 

[Kien]

You guys do matter.

 

[owo]

yeah check out my influence on falco lasers, mk fsmash, and roy nairz

 

[Thor]

What did you do to MK fsmash? I know about Roy nair and sort of about Falco lasers (a passing comment you made somewhere, or else you pushed it more than I realized) but I have no idea where you discussed MK fsmash...

 

[owo]

nothing major, just hitbox issues lol

 

[Baby_Sneak]

We aren't major in any sense of the word.

i was simply telling you that major companies like capcom, blizzard, etc.. does the same thing. doesnt really go with the topic, just a side fact.

 

[Bashdemears]

I will say this - the Link changes came out of left field, and the only thing I know was actively asked for was the dtilt shift (which actually sort of was my idea - I had suggested somewhere that it be a bit longer and pop up instead of spike so that you can hit them offstage even farther), and I think that was only because I got lucky and suggested something that would work, not because people actually cared about my input on Zelda (though admittedly I don't think there's a reason to care about my Zelda input, since I don't play her).

Also saying it now - Falco would LOVE to have an option where AAA did three jabs, but hitting twice NEVER did the third rapid jab - I know I would love this and it certainly shouldn't bother other Falco mains (I think owo might appreciate it too - no risk of rapid jab when he's trying to jab -> gatling me).

After going over the characters, the Captain Falcon changes were appreciated by people and requested (Bent is a hard lobbyist though - that's not a bad thing in this context either), the DK change was requested by a gametester (though it was reasonable since pretty sure it was nerfed from vBrawl lol), Warlock Punch received the world's tiniest buff, NS mode is fixed, glitches (again, because they existed, not because people actively sought to remove them - namely healing, Kirby hats, and Pichu wild charge), ROB nerfs (Which were fashionable with the devs anyway), Roy fixes (when he sucked to start, so yeah), and Sheik getting a useful chain/jump adjustment. That's it, and if you reread the list, that's 5 characters with a few changes, 4 small changes [dtilt included], and stuff that was never supposed to be there. Everything else is super random (like, no one cared about Ness why'd he get nerfed? He's already crap tier... and these TL buffs are... odd...). I think, funny enough, that if devs had fixed glitches and listened to complaints instead of dreaming them up or just using their private ones (and we'll ignore my personal Samus changes - I'm looking at you, Pichu, and your sorry state...), the changelog would be shorter and people would be happier.

Like, what if this was changelog?
Pichu: buffs
Roy: buffs
Captain Falcon: rapid jab thing and Falcon Punch
Zelda: Dtilt changed
ROB: nerfed a bit
Ganondorf: gets a cancel on WP, utilt clears away TL arrows
Ike: NS mode no self damage and counter choices in NS mode
Various glitches fixed, like Samus foot hitboxes and Pichu wild charge
Samus: aerials changed
Sheik: Chain does not suck
DK: Punch fix
TL: A few buffs since Ganondorf can wreck him by insta-clearing arrows [hey that would be fair I think].
Link: jab buffed

And that was all? [Obiviously I'm abbreviating here, but you get the idea]. I think people would nearly unanimously be much happier with 3.Q if this was the changelist (and I included nothing in this list I actively sought prior to 3.Q coming out, except the Ganon utilt buff - MK dtilt transcendence...).

One of two results should come of this: the devs should tell us to shut up and let them code (not wise in my opinion...) or they should write out what people actually want, list it out along with their proposed changes, explain rationale for theirs and the rejected changes, allow for some debate (they do get final say...), and THEN release the update. These are my opinions, because I don't think people want 3.Z or whatever it will be called to have this much of a reaction from a few different players next time.

I would be so down for this.

 

[Thor]

FYI, in my fake changelog, by "Gets a cancel on WP" I meant whatever cancel they currently put in (if you land in air it cancels, or whatever), not adding something more (just so devs don't go "No that's stupid" because it's more than what was put in).

 

[Kien]

If we only addressed what the community asked Minus would make no progress. Roy would've never been made, stages would never have been tweaked, we'd literally just be sitting around doing nothing. When someone requests that something be fixed or buffed it doesn't take much time to do unless it's complicated. In most cases it isn't. We'd have updates ready pretty much every few days, and there would be no surprises, good or bad.

 

[Thor]

I don't think we're saying "Don't change anything we say you shouldn't change" but rather "if something is good, leave it as is [ex: Pit, according to The Concept, and no one has disagreed yet]." We all love new characters, so add whomever [except not Ridley or K Rool]. We also like new stage ideas - we may not like them as much as other stages, but we all agree that making stages not nigh-unusable (New Pork City, Mushroom Kingdom, 75M) is awesome (I've gotten over Spear Pillar since it's a good stage to play on, and most people don't like non-neutralish stages besides me [for some of them - forget Hanenbow] and maybe The Concept). But no one really asked for Ness fair nerf (As far as I know), no one really needed the ZSS downgrades, and the fallspeed increases on a few characters are for the most part kind of bizarre. The Ganondorf tweaks are also weird, and utilt just sucks (if your opponent DIs it there are no combos available, at which point it's a somewhat slow, kind of laggy anti-air, where usmash outshines it already (Except that utilt literally does have more shininess in sparkles).

I also don't mind if there are no surprises if everyone agrees the mod is just getting better and more fun - and new characters can be a surprise anyway, as can new stages via SEP (if that ever gets back). You could also just add pseudo-easter eggs like Diddy's new projectile jetpack, or suggest new changes and if people say no, maybe drop them.

Not sure I'm expressing myself well, but I think some people might and maybe can say it better.

 

[NEWB]

I like the new fall speeds. Consider those good tweaks.

I can see Ganon's new attacks getting refined, so I have no problems with him either.

Ness is insanely good onstage and his fair is really good. They did overnerfed it though. The problem isn't the slight hitbox reduction but the less hitlag. The move is super easy to DI out of now and the shouldn't have been touched.

As for feeling the devs who to work on and who not to, I'm not really sure.

 

[Bashdemears]

If we only addressed what the community asked Minus would make no progress. Roy would've never been made, stages would never have been tweaked, we'd literally just be sitting around doing nothing. When someone requests that something be fixed or buffed it doesn't take much time to do unless it's complicated. In most cases it isn't. We'd have updates ready pretty much every few days, and there would be no surprises, good or bad.

Wow kien. Okay.

Nobody is calling for the BR to only do what the community wants. However, if the BR shouldn't just up and change things that the community has no problem with. They also should not change things out of personal preference. (Link)

 

[Kien]

But no one really asked for Ness fair nerf (As far as I know), no one really needed the ZSS downgrades, and the fallspeed increases on a few characters are for the most part kind of bizarre. The Ganondorf tweaks are also weird, and utilt just sucks

I also don't mind if there are no surprises if everyone agrees the mod is just getting better and more fun or suggest new changes and if people say no, maybe drop them.

Not sure I'm expressing myself well, but I think some people might and maybe can say it better.

ZSS was killing midweights at Ike percents but had better range so she was safe on shield unless perfect blocked. It's just not fitting for a character who already has very few weaknesses AND a paralyzer to setup such an easy surefire KO.
The Ganon changes I guess I can apologize for, but I doubt anyone will be disappointed for what he has in store for next update. (I promise, it's better.) The Utilt was originally a really good combo starter, but Gold tested it and it proved OP, which is why I changed the angle to not link easily, but I didn't take DI into account with it NEVER having a followup.
Ness's fair in my opinion wasn't his worst issue. But it was one of his 3 major ones. He isn't a glass cannon by any means. Recovery is his only weakness. The problem I have with Ness would be in order, PK Fire, Dthrow, and Fair. PK fire being unpunishable if he uses it from a distance because he has very little endlag and Dthrow because it true combos into aerials. I've been killed by Ness in 3 hits before. PK fire, dthrow Dair. (I was Sonic).. but anyway... I'd personally love to put out ideas and share them before we code them in, but Pin doesn't want things to be run that way.

But we should change things out of personal preference. It's what sparks ideas and promotes growth. That's like complaining about Smash 4 giving Link a new dash attack. Just because they changed it out of personal preference.

 

[Glyph]

The Ganon changes I guess I can apologize for, but I doubt anyone will be disappointed for what he has in store for next update. (I promise, it's better.) The Utilt was originally a really good combo starter, but Gold tested it and it proved OP, which is why I changed the angle to not link easily, but I didn't take DI into account with it NEVER having a followup.

Give me this much now, are you reverting the moves to their old version or trying to salvage this new version?

Ness's fair in my opinion wasn't his worst issue. But it was one of his 3 major ones. He isn't a glass cannon by any means. Recovery is his only weakness. The problem I have with Ness would be in order, PK Fire, Dthrow, and Fair. PK fire being unpunishable if he uses it from a distance because he has very little endlag and Dthrow because it true combos into aerials. I've been killed by Ness in 3 hits before. PK fire, dthrow Dair. (I was Sonic).. but anyway... I'd personally love to put out ideas and share them before we code them in, but Pin doesn't want things to be run that way.

Please, keep this ridiculous mentality away from yet another of my characters. Pk fire is unpunishable in the same way EVERY projectile in the game is. Its also not even a guaranteed followup if your opponent has spent even a little time learning how to DI. Exact same problem with dthrow. This nonsense about 'BUT IT TRUE COMBOS :'(' has gone on for waaaaay too long. You know who else's throws lead into followups? MY MOM'S everybody's! There might be like two characters who CAN'T follow up. But treating Ness' dthrow like its even remotely in need of nerfs just shows an inability to DI effectively.

Also, if you died in three hits to ness that's YOUR fault, not ness'. You literally could not have been above what, 30%? Sonic covers a ton of vertical distance with his upb, you just didn't use it in time for whatever reason.

But we should change things out of personal preference. It's what sparks ideas and promotes growth. That's like complaining about Smash 4 giving Link a new dash attack. Just because they changed it out of personal preference.

No, that would negate the entire point of the back room. Games don't grow because people slap in whatever strikes them as neat and say 'oops guess not!' when people don't feel the same way (or shouldn't, at least). The BRoom is supposed to make educated decisions based off feedback and professional experience to move things in a positive direction, and that obviously didn't happen for this last release.

 

[NEWB]

I agree with pk fire not needing a nerf really. That being said glyph, it does true combo 95 percent of the time, even with DI. Especially if multiple ones are used. It doesn't lock the opponent but using multiple ones forces the opponent to DI up I believe and that will allow ness to follow up to whatever he wants. Do you DI this move diagonally up?

I'm also surprised his down throw is a problem. I might be on board with a pk fire tweak because the aerial version of the move is situational but I'm not even remotely convinced right now that his down throw is an issue.

As far as adding stuff in, there needs to be a balance of both going with both off the wall ideas and just sticking to what works.

EDIT: I think he is tweaking the new Ganon utilt and not reverting. I would rather see this move to completion so that if I hate it, I can reject the finished product. I would like to see this move work before throwing it out.

 

[The Concept]

Some things about Ness

Are your personal ties to Ness clouding your judgement, Glyph?
If not, then fine. If so....then please at least attempt to change your point of view to an objective one.

 

[Thor]

ZSS was killing midweights at Ike percents but had better range so she was safe on shield unless perfect blocked. It's just not fitting for a character who already has very few weaknesses AND a paralyzer to setup such an easy surefire KO.
The Ganon changes I guess I can apologize for, but I doubt anyone will be disappointed for what he has in store for next update. (I promise, it's better.) The Utilt was originally a really good combo starter, but Gold tested it and it proved OP, which is why I changed the angle to not link easily, but I didn't take DI into account with it NEVER having a followup.
Ness's fair in my opinion wasn't his worst issue. But it was one of his 3 major ones. He isn't a glass cannon by any means. Recovery is his only weakness. The problem I have with Ness would be in order, PK Fire, Dthrow, and Fair. PK fire being unpunishable if he uses it from a distance because he has very little endlag and Dthrow because it true combos into aerials. I've been killed by Ness in 3 hits before. PK fire, dthrow Dair. (I was Sonic).. but anyway... I'd personally love to put out ideas and share them before we code them in, but Pin doesn't want things to be run that way.

But we should change things out of personal preference. It's what sparks ideas and promotes growth. That's like complaining about Smash 4 giving Link a new dash attack. Just because they changed it out of personal preference.

ZSS had obscene kill power? Ok... but why'd you have to go mess up dsmash? That move wasn't exactly easy to land, but you made a lot of ZSS players less happy with it... and I don't know who thought it was OP, but I don't think most had a problem with it doing 30% on contact because triple dsmash (just give it high base KB and zero KBG - if you take the triple you get zero combos, and if you take double to stuff cool for you).

While I'm discussing ZSS, I still would LOVE for her to get an ultra-taunt where she can transform into Samus if you hold R, and if you don't she just appears to shed armor again and is left with ONE armor piece to use. I think it would be really cool to give ZSS the ability to go back to Samus without a smash ball, and also would be cool to give ZSS a way to (albeit VERY slowly) generate armor pieces [they can be caught/reflected/dodged, so they're not unbeatable by any stretch, but they're cool to use and it's kind of sad that she can't get more without a smash ball].

PKfire dthrow dair wouldn't KO unless you missed the meteor cancel or you were actually not at zero percent. Or unless Ness dair is WAY more powerful than I realize, because that sounds like it would have to KO before Ganondorf's does (I've meteor-canceled Ganon's at like 30%, so I guess if you ate the full PK fire for 30%, dthrow for 15% (don't think it does that much) and dair... no I don't think it would ever KO if you meteor cancel properly). Either that, or fix Sonic's meteor cancel window.

Link dthrow true combos into utilt or aerials, last I checked... you have to read their DI but Ness does too (and against certain characters it doesn't - Jiggs can be at too high a percent for dthrow uair to connect when she DIs so she goes straight up, out of Ness's reach).

If another dev doesn't like this method, ok. Maybe I'll talk to Pin about things (or just see if I can be a part of the backroom later... once I have my stuff again, and if I meet requirements).

Some of the changes are cool and promote growth (Diddy's new projectile backpack), but some (Ganon utilt) just feel like change for change's sake, which is irritating because the move was awesome and one tweak away from being practically a Ganondorf staple, and it also now sucks thanks to the missed "This never combos". At the very least, can we not tweak stuff everyone agrees is awesome (I think Pit's side+B is a good example) and also go after stuff that everyone knows sucks (why did it take Sheik's whip so long...?)?

Please, keep this ridiculous mentality away from yet another of my characters. Pk fire is unpunishable in the same way EVERY projectile in the game is. Its also not even a guaranteed followup if your opponent has spent even a little time learning how to DI. Exact same problem with dthrow. This nonsense about 'BUT IT TRUE COMBOS :'(' has gone on for waaaaay too long. You know who else's throws lead into followups? MY MOM'S everybody's! There might be like two characters who CAN'T follow up. But treating Ness' dthrow like its even remotely in need of nerfs just shows an inability to DI effectively.

Also, if you died in three hits to ness that's YOUR fault, not ness'. You literally could not have been above what, 30%? Sonic covers a ton of vertical distance with his upb, you just didn't use it in time for whatever reason.

Falco does not have guaranteed followups (AND YET NO ONE ADDRESSES THIS!) OR a KO throw (THAT'S BULLCRAP! WHY FALCO HAVE WORST THROW GAME!?), only 2 throws that rely on terrible DI to do anything, but ROB, Link, Ness, Captain Falcon (I think), ZSS, Fox (uthrow I think...), MK [sorta, if you count dthrow and hold B), ICs, and several others do get true combos out of throws... should we nerf them all? I agree with Glyph - let's not...

Also agree with the last part of Glyph's post, at lest partly.

I agree with pk fire not needing a nerf really. That being said glyph, it does true combo 95 percent of the time, even with DI. Especially if multiple ones are used. It doesn't lock the opponent but using multiple ones forces the opponent to DI up I believe and that will allow ness to follow up to whatever he wants. Do you DI this move diagonally up?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/SDI
Do it straight backward out of the PK fire - when I do it quickly enough, Glyph (or I think Ness in general) gets no followups (unless he was already so close I could've punished startup, which would be my own fault for not punishing or jumping it).

Concept, I think Glyph may be biased, but he's also factually right about a lot of what he says... I don't think if he is biased that he is letting much of it affect what he's saying here.

 

[The Concept]

I once believed that Thor had the power of lightning. I now see it's the power to cross things out. I've never encountered more crossed out text. Since you left it here and just crossed it out instead of deleting, I don't know if you still mean to say it. I'm going assume you still mean it.

Thor, I don't doubt Glyph being factually right. I was just curious about what I asked.

 

[NEWB]

That was a very interesting read Thor.

But doesn't pk fire chain together if they di back? I figure you could chain pk fire if they do that.

 

[Bashdemears]

Dude. Pk fire isn't that hard to grasp. If you DI upwards and away, (a good) ness will go for an arieal. DI back and they wii grab.

Also whats wrong with things true combing? I thought minus was supposed to have true combos.

In response to that teaser about the new ganondorf build:
The community is perfectly okay with 3.5 tilts. (Outside of some minor things like arrow clearing.) Yet the BR thinks it needs to be changed. Who is calling for new tilts? As far as I know, everyone loves dorf. If the BR actually cared, they would make sure everyone was okay with whatever this new build is.

Also jiggs has pretty shitty throws.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Also jiggs has pretty shitty throws.

I can start edgeguards from front and back throw and tech chases with down throw what about you?

 

[Bashdemears]

That's IF they miss the tech.

Lemee restate. In comparison to the rest of the cast, Jiggs has pretty shitty throws.