Does ROB feel balanced compared to the rest of the cast?

NEWB

Well-Known Member
This also something I don't want people to forget. Every character has things that are tricky to deal with, or at least they should. I really like two gyros with rob, so I'd say start with other stuff first before hitting those hard. I want to see the gyros reworked to be tools instead of KO and overly offensive projectiles. They eat projectiles and impede ground movement somewhat. I say stick with that and get rid of their power and the ability to break on shields.

Like, what if charging gyros didn't raise the power but it raises the distance it travels? I also would mind allowing gyros to kill if they are only picking someone off that got blasted near the blastline. They definitely shouldn't kill anyone onstage.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
I will say that overall, fighting a good R.O.B is not easy. There may be some things about him that need nerfing. Maybe. However, I'll also say that I've had the same problems with fighting a great Ness, a great Kirby, a good Link, very nice Foxes, and Falco. This is mostly because, and I haven't figured out which is the case yet, either 1. I can't DI. Just doesn't work. or 2. Un-DI-able moves.. It's probably #1 and I'm working on it. I get trapped in combos, and I have an excruciatingly difficult time getting out.

The thing about those characters is that they actually take some semblance of skill to perform those tricky combos. I've noticed that Ness get's free combos if he lands a down throw or PK fire, but that's basically it. Ness at least has the weakness of a somewhat easy to stop recovery which is pretty big if that's the way you play.

Kirby doesn't feel frustrating to play as because his combos aren't that easy to land outside of potential walls of pain with bair, and grab setups with Inhale. However, he dies pretty early and Kirby isn't that hard to predict or out-range.

Being a Link main I can confirm that he doesn't have setups nearly as easy mode as a lot of the roster. Utilt and Dtilt are the only moves that really setup across most percents, while you have Uthrow to work for later times. Not to mention he has a pretty good amount of punishable frames on whiff and vulnerable to being juggled by anyone.

Fox and Falco are both pretty technical to use and I can't say for Falco, but Fox feels like his aerial game takes a lot of skill to use effectively. Only thing I've noticed about Falco is that he can't do too much on the ground against anyone who doesn't excel in the air.

All of these people have very clear pros AND cons to using.
 

Bashdemears

Jiggs2stronk
Falco is the equivalent of guile. Naturally, he has a very anti-rushdown style. However, if you really push it, he can be as in your face as MK. When I do play falco I find it best to mix up the two. Laser and reflector to stop the approach. Proceed to punish with arieals and mini pillars.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Thor you read that wrong. His side smash and up smash are the ONLY moves he does on the ground that take longer than 6 frames. And yes, I know that reflector characters are good ROB counters. I find it an issue though that people who are effective counters are the only ones who can put up a reasonable fight against equally skilled opponents.

Oops, read that wrong somehow. I read it at the time as "side+B and usmash" or something.

Psssst. Concept. You can always fight mine if you want.

And Thor, his charged gyros do in fact do over 20% damage. And his fsmash laser doesn't need to be fully charged to release. A minimum of half charge allows it to be used much faster.

I would believe CHARGED gyros do over 20%, but Kien said "deal 21% ... respawn on shield" implying the uncharged do 21%, which simply isn't (or never should have been) true. ROB can't charge them so fast he can spam 21% gyros. Good to know that 30 frames is how to fire the laser.

Kienamaru said:
Kirby doesn't feel frustrating to play as because his combos aren't that easy to land outside of potential walls of pain with bair, and grab setups with Inhale. However, he dies pretty early and Kirby isn't that hard to predict or out-range.

Have you played Darxmarx?

Kienamaru said:
thing I've noticed about Falco is that he can't do too much on the ground against anyone who doesn't excel in the air.
Lasers, reflector, ftilt, jab shenanigans if you catch your opponent sleeping, dthrow -> gatling or dair or another dthrow if they DI wrong (and I think phantasm with a jump at the end is workable too, need to play around with it)... Falco definitely has a lot of good ground options. Though he does, personally, prefer the air, so...

I like NEWB's ideas relating to gyros.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Yes I have played Darx and he isn't bad. However, Kirby is not overwhelming to go against. Even using Link who has a distinct arrows pretty much always miss disadvantage we were pretty evenly matched. I'd go so far as to say I had an advantage outside of SD'ing.
 

Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior
Is this suddenly a Kirby discussion? Lol
But yeah, Kirby can be quite predictable. His light weight doesn't help much either.
Newb's idea for ROB's gyros is nice. I support it.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Not a Kirby discussion. Just pointing out how the other characters can be clearly beaten.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Um.... Final cutter? I don't know what you mean...

You said "No jumps = death" and he was making a joke that Final Cutter can still help Kirby recover. I don't think he was serious.
 

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
Is it possible to increase the learning curve for R.O.B?
Making him just as strong, but combos require more skill to use?
 

Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior
Is it possible to increase the learning curve for R.O.B?
Making him just as strong, but combos require more skill to use?

Without changing his moveset too much?
Maybe changing the angles certain attacks send opponents?
Changing the knockback on certain attacks?
IDK
 

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
My suggestion takes much more creativity, but unfortunately, I don't have much. Hahaha :oops:
 

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
Hmm... Unfortunate.

Edit 6/20: So the problem with R.O.B is that he has no downside. I see how that could be a problem...
 
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Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
Anyone ever played ROB? If so, you would remember his weaknesses being weak at a specific angle like diagonal below him and above him, being able to get juggled like a ball, having killing problems, weak when trying to recover via rob burner, and etc.... these weaknesses made his MU against metaknight -3 in metaknights favor. any char that could abuse this weakness gave rob trouble as shown here:http://www.ssbwiki.com/R.O.B._(SSBB) (feel free to explore.) Now, the changes i believe would make rob fair would to nerf Nair's hitbox and priority, and make the hitbox of Dair a little smaller as i think as a weakness, rob already has trouble with getting juggled, and guarding his specific angles , but he can guard these weaknesses to the point of nigh impossible to use against him. the nerfs i ask for will open the holes to rob, so he's a bit easier to battle.
 
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Glyph

Moderator
Ok, so I've let this sit for a decent amount of time now so everyone could get their opinions on the table. Shots are probably going to be fired during this so brace for that.

First things first, lets talk a bit about what it is that people think makes ROB broken. The list is pretty wide spread, but I'll give everything I've heard a fair shake. We've got:
-Spotdodge
-Dsmash
-Fair
-Nair
-Grab/Throws
-Up-B
-Gyros
-Lasers
-Dtilt
-Jumps
-Side-B

And probably a few others, but the picture should be pretty apparent already. People have problems with ROB. Its worth nothing that only a handful of people actually complain about ALL of those above moves, but that's something I'll probably touch on later down. For now, lets just dive on in with

Spotdodge: Rob's bread and butter, even back in vBrawl. Wicked safe and very fast to act out of. I don't deny that its a very good move, but even if it was the best spotdodge in the game (and I'd wager its not) its far from being TOO good. In the end, its still just a spotdodge. You gain nothing out of it other than not getting hit, and even though the window at the end is small a HUGE majority of the cast have moves that can beat out that 5 frame endlag (and of course can just start their attack before the spotdodge ends since it has the same duration every time).

Conclusion - Great move! But not OP in any sense.

Dsmash: Another bane of many a grounded opponent. Comes out lightning fast, but beyond that accomplishes very little for ROB. The damage is good, but in the world of minus where most Dsmashes can put out upwards of 20% easily if all their hits connect this one is very very tame in both terms of damage AND knockback (you won't be killing until well past 150% with it, even against lightweights). Its a very well balanced move, in that its a strong option to get people off of you but doesn't offer anything more than a moment to breathe in the long term. Oh, and did I mention that holding up during this this gets you out of the last hit? Then you can just bop ROB for free.

Conclusion - Its a ROB staple for a reason. But its not enough of a threat to merit any changes unless you're just actively trying to make ROB worse.

Fair: I was really looking forward to talking about Fair in this post, mostly because its one that has been actively proven to be very easy to deal with by a competent opponent. The solution? Good ol' fashion american DI. Or Japanese DI if you're fancy. Regardless you just... move out of the way. I used to say 'down and away' but turns out you can even just hold back to get out, even at modest percentages. But there's another reason I was excited for this move, and that's because I've got a TON of replays showing that its not just possible but reliable to DI out of it.
Here's it being done against me.
And here's me doing it to the second best ROB we have.

That second game is worth looking at because its effectively 'How to beat ROB' in video form. I'll be coming back to it a lot since its a perfect example of the reasons these moves are easily handled by a player who's familiar with the ol' robot.

Conclusion - Easily trumped once you know what you're doing.

Nair: Oh lordy lordy, the infamous nair. ROB's best kill move, but against a smart opponent also probably the most difficult one to land. Nair starts up too slow to just throw out unless your opponent is blindly rushing in (which is a big signal that they're not going to have a great time that match anyway), and primarily connects only if you manage to chase people with your jumps/up-b.

But thats ok! The move is not a guaranteed hit in those circumstances EVER. Its big, but you can spotdodge it easily thanks to its super obvious and long start up time. But the BEST response to this move is just conserve your double jump until ROB commits to using it. ROB can cover a ton if distance, but his speed in the air is abysmal compared to a hefty chunk of the cast. Meaning, you know exactly what ROB wants to hit you with, you know exactly where he's coming from, and you know exactly when he's going to use it.

'BUT WHAT IF THE ROB KNOWS YOU'LL JUMP AND JUST CHASES FURTHER?????'

Then guess what, that ROB player read your play. You made a decision and the other player saw it coming and punished. That's what being good at smash is all about.

Conclusion - Hella obvious and easy to dodge if you're patient, a world ender if you're not.

Grabs/Throws: This one frustrates me more than anything else on the list because its blatently just targeting ROB for the sake of being upset you couldn't beat him. EVERY character has a move that will combo out of at least one of their throws.

Conclusion - Get over it and accept that combos are a thing in minus

Up-b: Man, really? This thing is literally one of the only moves in the whole game unchanged from vbrawl. Yeah its good at stopping meteors. So is jumping. ROB will take a few hits to put down, but he's also completely unable to air dodge during the use of it. Hover over his head, bait out an attack (or just hit him straight away) and he's already in a horrible position. This goes back again to his very mediocre air speed, meaning you can tell from the start exactly where he plans to go and take an appropriate action against it. Its not impossible to spike ROB, its just not as easy as hitting him once.

Conclusion - Its vBrawl already

Gyros: FINALLY something actually worth a nerf! I've been very open about the fact that ROB getting a second gyro was the biggest buff he's ever gotten. A single gyro is a very manageable thing. It hurts, but takes a long time to charge up and can't even be messed with again until its offstage or times out. Two gives ROB something his projectile game never needed, sustainability. Normally ROB can set up a really solid projectile wall against an opponent with two attacks, obviously both being laser and gyro. But with a second gyro, he can pressure with the first and charge another while its in the air. And if they block that one, then you just have yet another gyro on deck to charge up. Moving this back to one makes ROB's projectile game a much less frightening beast.

Conclusion - Gyro to 1

Lasers: Lasers, much like nair, are easy to dodge if you know what you're doing and will devastate you if you don't. But, only if you're offstage. AND only if you're at a pretty decent percentage anyway. AND only if the ROB actually manages to hit it, which I promise is no easy task against experienced players.

Conclusion - Get out of the way or you deserve to be KO'd

Dtilt: I've seen this called a 'panic button' for ROB. If you're using this move as such, you're not playing ROB very effectively. This move is all out pressure. Its got great range and amazing speed, but does like, 4%. DIing up or away from ROB will get you out with minimal damage, meaning your only real threat is being tripped. That rate was being adjusted last I heard, but Dtilt was far from a game decider in the first place so nerf away if that's what you want.

Conclusion - If you think nerfing Dtilt will balance ROB you don't know what the problems are.

Jumps: This particular point is probably the hardest one for me to work with. ROB's jumps aren't broken, but they're certainly an incredibly valuable tool to him. Seeing them go wouldn't be the end of the world, but I WOULD certainly expect brawl minus to compensate for their removal with some buff to up-b.

Conclusion - Super duper useful and not game breaking, but not integral to ROB's play. Would require something to balance out their removal.

Side-b: This is another one I'm going to back to this video on. ROB's side-b is good. It makes him go fast and that is scary. But its also ... a straight line. Out of which ROB will 99.9% of the time fair out of. Which means if ROB is waaaay over there, and he's not shooting things at you, be ready to block! Blocking shuts DOWN this approach, down to its followup dsmash/dtilts. (see 2:24 for what I mean). But thats not your only option at all. Getting above ROB means that approach does him no good, and don't forget he still has a giant hitbox on him meaning you can just attack him out of it and get free damage (which I do a ton of times that game).

Conclusion - Another predictable move that is easily dealt with once you're familiar with how to play aginast ROB. Are you noticing the trend?


I'm sure I've missed some key points in there but I'll feel a lot better having gotten this mess off my chest and into the public eye. But first, I do have to put a little story out there. About a week ago I tested out a new ROB build with another dev. This ROB had the changes I have listed here, and then some. On top of all the previous ROB nerfs, this one also: had only the standard double jump, only one gyro, and no laser on charged fsmash.

That's already a very steep decline from previous ROB builds, but sure, I figured I'd try it. It took some adjusting too but I still managed to pull out pretty handy victories in the games we played. I figured that hopefully that person would be able to see that my literal years of playing tournament level ROB were the problem he was seeing and not the character itself.

Instead we're now looking at a rework on ROB because they can't fathom that someone might be that much better than them.

People like this do not balance with gameplay in mind, they balance around what they can and cannot beat. If it were for gameplay, we'd see significant nerfs to ALL the top tiers, instead of a constant stream on only one and small touches on the others (if any at all). In a sense I guess I'm flattered, but actions show people's true intentions clearer than any words could.


If there is a valid complaint raised against ROB following this post I'll be happy to answer it, but anything that's just rehashing things I've talked about here right now will be ignored.

EDIT 1: I imagine there will be several edits here as I remember stuff, but I DO want to address the post above this one and point out that all the weaknesses they point out for ROB are still present in minus. There's even a quote I love:

'He was considered a difficult matchup for many players, who weren't experienced enough at the time to get around his weaknesses, and he was very dominant, with his attacks known for being fast and having great hitboxes. However, as time progressed, R.O.B.'s weaknesses became more prominent, with players learning to get around the blind spots of his attacks, as well as the increasing dominance of Meta Knight, the character which countered R.O.B. the most.'

We're sitting in 2008 thanks to our super tiny playerbase. If you need practice or advice on trumping ROB, I'm definitely the guy to talk to.
 
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Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior
Honestly, I think I'm fine with the next update's ROB nerfs. It took care of the main grudges I had against him as a character. As of now, I don't think any other nerfs are necessary.

Heck, I think maybe one or two of my dislikes was salt more than anything else. :p
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
So uh.. it looks like you're firing the shots here. So i'm gonna point out a ton of things you evidently didn't consider. As well as pointing out the things that you mentioned people complain about that actually aren't OP.

We've got:
-Spotdodge
Dodges can't actually be overpowered. Even the best spot dodge in the game isn't OP. I recall Link has one of the best spot dodges actually. Or he did in Vbrawl. It's not the dodge that's OP, it's only when combined with other assets that it becomes too much for over half the cast to handle. I'll get to that though.


Calling ROBs 3 frame down smash his bread and butter is like calling Metaknight's 2 frame everything his bread and butter. Just because a character is known for something doesn't make that thing fair. It isn't so much the fact that it comes out in 3 frames, or that it deals up to 17-19% uncharged. It's more the fact that he can combine this attack with his mobility, and it has so little endlag with low hitboxes. This means that ROB can effectively down smash multiple times even after clanging with someone else and expect to win any trade that isn't a fox speed jab. How? Because the only way to shield it is to low shield it as it can't be spot dodged, or dodged toward him. No one that I've heard of can move their shield to a low position in 3 frames. Pretty sure that forces a spot dodge on you. If the move started on one side and then hit the other by spinning that'd be a bit different. However, this is giving ROB full protection from all but attacks from head height or higher (and of course powerful projectiles.)


Let's not forget that DI is completely dependent on the character in question. Some characters can't DI to the extent that others can, meaning that some degree of balancing IS needed for this. ROB isn't the only one who needs his fair toned down, he's not even the most prominent. He is however the only one who can easily score a KO by using it. As his hitbox is out on frame 6 for 15 frames I believe, and cancels on frame 30 or so. Doing the math there are about... 15ish frames (give or take) where you can actually hit ROB from the front BETWEEN his fairs. Given his air control and range this isn't much of a problem though.


This isn't what I would call cheap. It's hard to avoid if you're near him because the hitbox is out long enough to eat through an air dodge unless you time it 100% on point. The only really problem with this move is that it's oddly difficult to DI in more than one direction from it. And it happens to true combo from a good half of ROBs attacks. ROB is the only spacer who kills from 100 with his nair. If that's not telling you anything is wrong then I can't help you.


-Grab/Throws
Nothing cheap about his grab in itself. He does have a very powerful throw for each direction however. Not damage wise, but all of his throws lead into effective true combos all the way into kill percents. Not many other characters can say that for anything of theirs. On a character with such outstanding ranged game it makes no sense for ROB to rely on his throws to setup for close quarters follow ups that always kill.


This isn't even remotely cheap. It's how ROB was meant to recover, chase, and combo all in one. THIS is what should define ROB and separate the good ROBs from the bad ones.


If you consider 30 a moderate percent for half the cast then sure. If you wonder why half the cast would be off stage at a percent that low it's because half the cast (more actually) are slower than ROB in all areas or they lack projectiles and are forced to approach him. If he waits at the edge then you're pretty screwed unless you can bait him into wasting one of his 3 slow attacks. But why would he do that at all? A smart ROB would see that he has the advantage and play it safe.


This is indeed a panic button. 80% trip rate in 3 frames is nothing to shake a stick at. 4 damage isnt much but one hit of this guarantees you a free followup into a side tilt hi if the DI out, a smash of your choice if they don't, and a laser or gyro shot if they retreat.


This is really cheap on ROB regardless of how you look at it. Blastline jumping is one thing, but chasing someone to it, killing them, and not even using your recovery to recover is just... it's too much.


So like.. ROB is a spacer. With Peach's really effective Side B approach move. Only he can land faster stronger attacks with better range and he goes so much further that it's really hard to punish. All you can really do is block and hope he doesnt dair and grab you because uh.. 0 frames of landing lag. That's kinda fair. Yeah, I guess it is fair. I mean everyone has a 0 lag attack. Oh wait...

Dsmash: Another bane of many a grounded opponent. Comes out lightning fast, but beyond that accomplishes very little for ROB.(you won't be killing until well past 150% with it, even against lightweights).
No one uses this move to kill. But to score tons of free combos is not something you can laugh at when they're coming off of ROB. Not too many others can do their combo and kill aerials in the same period of airtime, let alone combo them together.

Fair: I was really looking forward to talking about Fair in this post, mostly because its one that has been actively proven to be very easy to deal with by a competent opponent. I used to say 'down and away' but turns out you can even just hold back to get out, even at modest percentages.

Congratulations, you DI'd out of fair. The problem isn't that you can't DI out of it. The problem is that DIing away from fair doesn't put you at even a slight advantage. As a matter of fact, you get just as much if not more disadvantage because ROB is a spacer. You're forced to move away from a spacer so that you can approach him. You see how this is bad? Moving away from it sets you right where ROB wants you.


Grabs/Throws: This one frustrates me more than anything else on the list because its blatently just targeting ROB for the sake of being upset you couldn't beat him. EVERY character has a move that will combo out of at least one of their throws.

But who else true combos out of all of their throws? I'm sure there's someone so when you find an answer, let me know who also true combos into KOs out of all of them.

Lasers: Lasers, much like nair, are easy to dodge if you know what you're doing and will devastate you if you don't. But, only if you're offstage. AND only if you're at a pretty decent percentage anyway. AND only if the ROB actually manages to hit it, which I promise is no easy task against experienced players.

I'll admit that lasers aren't the hardest things to dodge from a distance, but the fact that nearly all of ROBs animations are similar and the projectile ricochets, it isn't the easiest thing to time. Also take into account risk vs reward. ROB can run around with this bad boy charged up. And shoot from across the entire level. Just because your opponent couldn't time their dodge doesn't mean they deserve absolute death. The only other moves that effective in the game require you to either sit stationary and charge them, or get up close and put yourself at risk. KOs from 30 or below is not what a projectile should do from the edge. Ever.

Are you noticing the trend?
The trend here, is that you know how to go up against your 85 year main better than likely anyone else here and somehow, you think that makes him balanced.


Instead we're now looking at a rework on ROB because they can't fathom that someone might be that much better than them.
People like this do not balance with gameplay in mind, they balance around what they can and cannot beat. If it were for gameplay, we'd see significant nerfs to ALL the top tiers, instead of a constant stream on only one and small touches on the others (if any at all).

Well, after you left the BR SOMEBODY finally opened up and said that they too thought ROB was imbalanced in a ton of ways. That effectively means the entire BR aside of Thunda saw ROB as a problem, and not all of them faced your Highness. You say people like that, but uh... well. I guess that shows how you see the rest of us. Your (confidence) arrogance aside, we have been looking at the other top tiers. Lucario to be specific. Lucario has just as many if not more issues than ROB could dream of having. However, Lucario's issues are in that he can rely on low damage combos that last really long and can barely be DI'ed out of. He has high priority and can barely be punished on miss. The only way to truly beat Lucario without counterpicking him is to play defensively and that's a bit of a problem.

D3 on the other hand is the only true S tier not mentioned so far, and he actually takes skill to use. I think that's enough said.
 
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Lightning

Ikesexual
So, let me get this straight. You still think that they're "nerfing" (it's actually called balancing, but I'll let you think what you want) ROB because you're too good?
gWWjS3H.gif

Spotdodge: Rob's bread and butter, even back in vBrawl. Wicked safe and very fast to act out of. I don't deny that its a very good move, but even if it was the best spotdodge in the game (and I'd wager its not) its far from being TOO good. In the end, its still just a spotdodge. You gain nothing out of it other than not getting hit, and even though the window at the end is small a HUGE majority of the cast have moves that can beat out that 5 frame endlag (and of course can just start their attack before the spotdodge ends since it has the same duration every time).

Conclusion - Great move! But not OP in any sense.
Yeah, it's just a spot dodge. I doubt it'll get changed.. But the fact that it's too long is what makes it hated. Either in air or on ground, it's still at the top of the longest sport dodges in Minus. (I guess you can also throw in vBrawl, but I don't know specifics about it.)

Dsmash: Another bane of many a grounded opponent. Comes out lightning fast, but beyond that accomplishes very little for ROB. The damage is good, but in the world of minus where most Dsmashes can put out upwards of 20% easily if all their hits connect this one is very very tame in both terms of damage AND knockback (you won't be killing until well past 150% with it, even against lightweights). Its a very well balanced move, in that its a strong option to get people off of you but doesn't offer anything more than a moment to breathe in the long term. Oh, and did I mention that holding up during this this gets you out of the last hit? Then you can just bop ROB for free.

Conclusion - Its a ROB staple for a reason. But its not enough of a threat to merit any changes unless you're just actively trying to make ROB worse.
The fact that it comes out lightning fast and does a lot of damage AND can set up for A LOT of combos is really not good in terms of balanced. And lets not forget that down smash can practically lead into any aerial.. I wouldn't mind it becoming like Zelda's upsmash (without the whole outer hitbox).

Fair: I was really looking forward to talking about Fair in this post, mostly because its one that has been actively proven to be very easy to deal with by a competent opponent. The solution? Good ol' fashion american DI. Or Japanese DI if you're fancy. Regardless you just... move out of the way. I used to say 'down and away' but turns out you can even just hold back to get out, even at modest percentages. But there's another reason I was excited for this move, and that's because I've got a TON of replays showing that its not just possible but reliable to DI out of it.
That second game is worth looking at because its effectively 'How to beat ROB' in video form. I'll be coming back to it a lot since its a perfect example of the reasons these moves are easily handled by a player who's familiar with the ol' robot.

Conclusion - Easily trumped once you know what you're doing.
Fair is the move that I personally believe is the one that needs the biggest nerf. Fair needs a nerf to not make it ROB's most used move.
Fair combos into fair and can combo into, surprise!, fair.
Where the hell would you even DI to?

'BUT WHAT IF THE ROB KNOWS YOU'LL JUMP AND JUST CHASES FURTHER?????'

Then guess what, that ROB player read your play. You made a decision and the other player saw it coming and punished. That's what being good at smash is all about.
Lol.
Isn't the point of Smash to stay on the stage and knock your opponent off?
Doesn't that mean they have to jump to get back on the stage?
I guess I just read their moves by knowing the point of the game..

Conclusion - Hella obvious and easy to dodge if you're patient, a world ender if you're not.
Most characters recovery are not long, thus requiring them to use it before they can't reach the ledge. Yeah sure, patience is key, but if you were using someone with a short recovery, you need to get to the ledge before your recovery becomes pointless.

Grabs/Throws: This one frustrates me more than anything else on the list because its blatently just targeting ROB for the sake of being upset you couldn't beat him. EVERY character has a move that will combo out of at least one of their throws.

Conclusion - Get over it and accept that combos are a thing in minus
Well when you draw conclusions like that, I would also be upset. I believe that all of his grabs can combo into something, which can then combo into fair. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Lasers: Lasers, much like nair, are easy to dodge if you know what you're doing and will devastate you if you don't. But, only if you're offstage. AND only if you're at a pretty decent percentage anyway. AND only if the ROB actually manages to hit it, which I promise is no easy task against experienced players.

Conclusion - Get out of the way or you deserve to be KO'd
Not really. The fact that they're main use if for offstage KOs is enough for them to get a nerf on knockback. It's not like you have much of a choice when you're off stage. Either air dodge, leading you to your death, try to recover and get hit anyway, or simply get hit. There aren't really other options.

Jumps: This particular point is probably the hardest one for me to work with. ROB's jumps aren't broken, but they're certainly an incredibly valuable tool to him. Seeing them go wouldn't be the end of the world, but I WOULD certainly expect brawl minus to compensate for their removal with some buff to up-b.

Conclusion - Super duper useful and not game breaking, but not integral to ROB's play. Would require something to balance out their removal.
The fact that he gets a third jump for no reason doesn't really sit well with me. He doesn't need 3 jumps if he has a long up-b and useful side-b.
And if you think removing his third jump earns him a buff, you really don't know what you're talking about..

Side-b: This is another one I'm going to back to this video on. ROB's side-b is good. It makes him go fast and that is scary. But its also ... a straight line. Out of which ROB will 99.9% of the time fair out of. Which means if ROB is waaaay over there, and he's not shooting things at you, be ready to block! Blocking shuts DOWN this approach, down to its followup dsmash/dtilts. (see 2:24 for what I mean). But thats not your only option at all. Getting above ROB means that approach does him no good, and don't forget he still has a giant hitbox on him meaning you can just attack him out of it and get free damage (which I do a ton of times that game).

Conclusion - Another predictable move that is easily dealt with once you're familiar with how to play aginast ROB. Are you noticing the trend?
Wait a minute, doesn't side-b practically cancel into anything? Wow, such balance. Not OP at all..

But first, I do have to put a little story out there. About a week ago I tested out a new ROB build with another dev. This ROB had the changes I have listed here, and then some. On top of all the previous ROB nerfs, this one also: had only the standard double jump, only one gyro, and no laser on charged fsmash.

That's already a very steep decline from previous ROB builds, but sure, I figured I'd try it. It took some adjusting too but I still managed to pull out pretty handy victories in the games we played. I figured that hopefully that person would be able to see that my literal years of playing tournament level ROB were the problem he was seeing and not the character itself.
I already heard about it and I'm excited to see it in the next build of Minus.
ROB doesn't deserve 3 jumps in my opinion.

Instead we're now looking at a rework on ROB because they can't fathom that someone might be that much better than them.
You're very cocky. If the majority of the people on the forums believe that ROB is OP, he's fucking OP. You might not see it because you main him, but it's crystal clear to everyone else.

People like this do not balance with gameplay in mind, they balance around what they can and cannot beat. If it were for gameplay, we'd see significant nerfs to ALL the top tiers, instead of a constant stream on only one and small touches on the others (if any at all). In a sense I guess I'm flattered, but actions show people's true intentions clearer than any words could.
1. Almost everyone in the BR has been there longer than you have.
2. The BR isn't nerfing ROB because they can't beat you. Did you even consider that ROB is too buff? You just pointed out all his strengths and talked about how they help him. And then, you suggested for some of them to "deal with it" or "get over it". Theres a 80:20 ratio in your post on his strengths versus weaknesses. They're not trying to nerf the oh so glorified ROB god, they're trying to make him balanced. If you can't accept that and you keep telling yourself "I'm so good, they had to nerf ROB", you really need a wake up call.
3. Maybe you should step outside of your bubble and see the truth. ROB is OP and too broken. You just don't notice it because you aren't on the other side.
4. If you can't accept change, you'll get no where in life.
5. You're still cocky. It's annoying.

And don't be flattered. You're only making yourself look arrogant.

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NEWB

Well-Known Member
Too much animosity in that post to have a clear point. I'm not gonna bother shutting you down on a couple points. Kienamaru had this covered much better on his own. At least his posts had evidence instead of opinions.

Basicaly, they aren't nerfing rob because of you glyph, though I'm not even sure you are implying that. It is very clear though that rob has too much going for him. I'd be against nerfs if they weren't also looking at lucario, but since they are....

Regarding what glyph said about grabs, Game and Watch actually has really useless throws. None of them are guaranteed to combo with anything. Down throw can be teched and the other throws send people to far up. He can parachute on them at low percents, when it isn't lethal. Otherwise, all he can do is upb maybe or just push em up with Uair untill you can bait them into a parachute. I know he's a hard hitter, but he's a light weight. There are better glass cannons and there are better hard hitters that don't die in three hits. He is in the awkward position of not being as good as other characters at those two respects, so I think he could benefit from better throws.

My point is that rob is blessed with awesome throws that some characters desperately need. Many characters have throws that are actually useless compared to other throws that they possess.
 
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