Character recovery tier list disussion

Ludacario

Ludacario

Resident of the blastzone
Playtester
After a long debate on discord, me and a group of players came up with this tier list for recoveries:

upload_2016-12-20_16-6-16.png


The ones most debated were yoshi/rob, and marth/peach. Also we were considering putting MK in a tier of his own. Let us know what you think!

(we accounted pit's upb glitch, as well as the malfunctions of pika's and zelda's upbs as well)
 
Dusk

Dusk

Equals Trash
Playtester
You put lucario's recovery as supers when squirtle's is better. Falcon's should be good he has raptor boost, he can get an extra jump from down b, and his up b his arguably the best diagonal distance which includes a hitbox at the end and he has a great cling distance. Zelda can double up B. Explain to me why Kirby's recovery is bad when its one of the better ones in the game? Roy and G-dawg should be decent. IC's have a great recovery the vertical on Up B is insane and the horizontal on side B is ballistic. Luigi's should probably be decent or on the bottom end of good. Pika has a side b WJC so his horizontal is pretty good and his up B covers mucho distancia. Marth has less vert then Roy. ROB's should be good. IDK what else. Also it doesn't help that you don't specify if you take into account gimpability, horizontal, vertical, diagonal, extra benefits, or if you just take into account upB.


Kymaera K1ng said:
Also Wolf's recovery is getting nerfed next update
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Just the super armour is being removed so that shouldn't afect his recovery only his gimpability.
 
Thor

Thor

Well-Known Member
This list is nonsense. The entire abysmal tier is wrong and missing some characters.

ZSS should be higher [until someone can explain to me how to contest the hitboxes on her down+b without some specific projectiles, she recovers for free against a ton of the cast].

Wario should be higher [obscene airspeed, waft is amazing for recovering, he also has bair if he's backwards, and can use his down+B too].

Sheik should be lower until her up+b is patched [it currently has zero I-frames IIRC].

DK should be lower - you can shine spike him or dair him with some characters extremely efficiently with practice. Not great defensive options to protect himself offstage either.

Snake should be higher - he has great aerials, a plethora of explosives to extend his recovery, and solid armor on his up+b [I know it beats Fox shine at least]. Unless this stuff was patched [I don't know how Snake was changed in 4.0 BC, if at all].

Pikachu's recovery should be higher, unless it can also glitch choosing two directions [because up and up diagonal are usually more than enough, and Pika has QAC as well as JC thunder for protection].

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon belong in the abysmal tier - mostly awful hitboxes, very linear recoveries, easily intercepted all around. Bowser probably belongs with them, as he lacks stalling moves like DK side+b and has a very easily intercepted recovery.

Lucas has a tether and zap jump, should be higher.

Ivycopter [like ZSS down+b] is almost uncontestable without projectiles, should be higher.

Puff's recovery is not good if spiked more than once, but she has such good airspeed that it shouldn't happen, and rising pound is quite helpful as well. I think simply holding up with tap jump on also automatically meteor cancels as fast as possible, and if that's true, her recovery becomes much more meteor smash resistant. She also can walljump now, which helps her recovery further. She should be much higher.

I'm sure I take issue with more than those, but I'll point them out for starters.
 
Farkus

Farkus

Retired
I don't have time to contest all points. ZSS is lower because if she is hit out of her down b she does not regain it to recover again. Captian Falcon is lower because his recovery is horrendous if he is facing the wrong way and is not in side b range. Sheik's up b was patched. Lucas has a tether, but his ub b is still pretty gimpable. Ivycopter does not cover much distance and since how tether's work in minus, she can be easily edgehogged.

But you are right on Snake, Puff and DK.

Also, squirtle's recovery is no where near as good as lucario's Dusk.
 
Thor

Thor

Well-Known Member
Farkus said:
I don't have time to contest all points. ZSS is lower because if she is hit out of her down b she does not regain it to recover again. Captian Falcon is lower because his recovery is horrendous if he is facing the wrong way and is not in side b range. Sheik's up b was patched. Lucas has a tether, but his ub b is still pretty gimpable. Ivycopter does not cover much distance and since how tether's work in minus, she can be easily edgehogged.

But you are right on Snake, Puff and DK.

Also, squirtle's recovery is no where near as good as lucario's Dusk.
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For ZSS I should have specified that she should be the bottom of the next tier instead of the top of the listed tier loooooool. My b on that one, that's not exactly going up, and she's below all the right characters [more or less, I'd put her and Wario the next tier up I think, since I think labelling her recovery "good" is insufficient].

Lucas tether + double jump and Ivycopter are in my opinion both better than all of Bowser's options and should move those characters above Bowser, but I don't know that they should move entire tiers up, just slide up within the tier.

Unless the OP decided to neglect that tiers are unordered [which seems not to be the case, given that they say they debated Yoshi/ROB], then I still have issues with the listed characters, but you fixed a lot of the things I'd take back anyway.
 
Dusk

Dusk

Equals Trash
Playtester
Farkus said:
Also, squirtle's recovery is no where near as good as lucario's Dusk.
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Depends on the assumptions being made as I stated previously. If we are assuming vertical distance squirtle can get higher then lucario, I just tested it. If you jump use squirtles down b boost jump up b you get to red bubble on Final Destination. If lucario were to double jump up b he does not go into a bubble.
 
Gold_TSG

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Up B from ground, jump, up B.
 
Dusk

Dusk

Equals Trash
Playtester
Very peculiar when I tested I got different results. I was probably shorthopping or something. /shrug
 
Thor

Thor

Well-Known Member
Dusk said:
Very peculiar when I tested I got different results. I was probably shorthopping or something. /shrug
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Using an aerial while using Lucario's Extremespeed extends his recovery.

While I think the c-stick can influence direction so this may be ill-advised, I usually mash the c-stick downward while using Lucario's up+b to do a dair, since for quite a while that seemed to produce the best distance [given that dair used to pop him up quite distinctly, or at least stall him].

If you retest, I assume SH double jump up+B dair [do the dair mid-up+B] will get you higher than FH double jump up+b.
 
BC

BC

Momentum Based Player
Playtester
Okay... probably not my place to say, but Ivy's recovery is being underestimated here. Ivycopter can be cancelled into either an air dodge or Vine Whip, the former of which lets you Ivycopter again in the same airtime. ALso... Have none of you considered jump-cancelled Vine Whip? Seriously... it sends her extremely high... She's not as easy to edgehog as you may think.

I'm not saying her recovery is amazing or anything... but it's not complete garbage tier either. Her recovery is definitely in at least the Decent tier. As an Ivy main, I at least know that much.
 
BC

BC

Momentum Based Player
Playtester
I doubt it. You get considerably lower after each air dodge. You can't do it for too long, unless you waste your jump to cancel into Vine Whip. It's not meant to be used as a stalling tactic at all. If anything, the Ivycopter to airdodge is a counter to the "can't air dodge out of tumble" mechanic of Minus. XD
 
Thor

Thor

Well-Known Member
player_03 said:
Did not know about that. Nice! That makes it way harder to punish.



Repeatably. This is almost certainly going to be removed like all the other stalling options.
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BC already said it, but I'll repeat it for emphasis: There's literally no reason to remove it. It's a significantly worse stalling option offstage than rising pound [which isn't remotely broken or removal-worthy].
 
Farkus

Farkus

Retired
One thing about tether recoveries in Minus, they cannot share a ledge like in PM, so Ivy's and ZSS's and Olimar's recoveries can be easily edgehogged.
 
Thor

Thor

Well-Known Member
Farkus said:
One thing about tether recoveries in Minus, they cannot share a ledge like in PM, so Ivy's and ZSS's and Olimar's recoveries can be easily edgehogged.
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All of these characters have sufficient recovery options that they are rarely forced to go for the ledge [unlike in PM].

Also, if all of these characters save their jumps, they can do up+b then double jump up+b - the first up+B will put a hitbox at ledge and then they can still tether the ledge afterward, so unless someone times ledge stalling nearly perfectly [and I don't think Minus has frame-perfect ledge stalling unlike Melee/PM/Brawl], then they can't be ledgehogged that easily (because none of the tethers cause special fall, unless Olimar's is still not working correctly).

Olimar's is probably the most fragile of the three, but ZSS seems to almost never need to go for ledge, and Ivysaur's Ivycopter plus rising up+B [using a double jump] grant her such considerable height that as long as she has good DI she'll almost never need to go for the ledge either.

Also, if I've never said it before, the gfycat that appears with each of your posts is hilarious.
 
Farkus

Farkus

Retired
Minus might not have frame perfect ledge stalling, but with the increased ledge invincibility, it is much easier to ledge stall. And while ZSS has plenty of tools to deal with it. But Ivysaur only has Ivycopter, which does not compare to ZSS's down b.
 
player_03

player_03

P3
Farkus said:
But Ivysaur only has Ivycopter, which does not compare to ZSS's down b.
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For what it's worth, if Ivysaur is near the ledge, Ivycopter can easily wait out the invincibility, and there's no way for them to regrab without being hit. Then Ivysaur can cancel it into up-B.
 
Farkus

Farkus

Retired
player_03 said:
For what it's worth, if Ivysaur is near the ledge, Ivycopter can easily wait out the invincibility, and there's no way for them to regrab without being hit. Then Ivysaur can cancel it into up-B.
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Which is true, but this is covering all scenarios, not the best scenario.
 
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