BUFFS

[Bent 00]

^ I didn't forget. What I don't get is why you would rather keep Falcon's side taunt in its current USELESS form, rather than buff it enough to make it at least safe to use occasionally on a stage the size of FD.

I think that every move a character has should have SOME utility. Falcon's current side taunt fails at being an effective taunt because he's too likely to get punished if he uses it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I almost never use his side taunt to begin with, cause I prefer requesting that my opponents show me their moves. Even the pull effect on it is useless when he can't cancel out of it, so he gets punished WORSE than if it simply did nothing but taunt.

 

[Bent 00]

I almost never use his side taunt to begin with, cause I prefer requesting that my opponents show me their moves. Even the pull effect on it is useless when he can't cancel out of it, so he gets punished WORSE than if it simply did nothing but taunt.

Exactly! So why would a Falcon main like yourself want it left as-is? It's one thing not to care either way, but to want one of your main's moves to remain useless when it doesn't have to... I don't get it.

 

[Sammi-husky]

it is a TAUNT use it when you kill somebody. If you don't want to use it after a kill, then go ahead and use it in their face but don't expect us to buff it because of your decision to want to taunt in peoples face / use it as a move. it's ultimately ONLY a taunt with a cool easter egg on it. sorry, thats just how it is. It's not meant to be useful, its meant to taunt people. :/

 

[Gold_TSG]

Thank you!

 

[Bent 00]

Okay, sheesh! It sounded like a good idea to me. Falcon's side taunt is staying useless, great...

Mario, DK, and Jigglypuff got highly useful regular taunts. A simple cancel wasn't asking for much.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You make it sound like Falcon is completely useless as a character without it, dude.

 

[Bent 00]

You make it sound like Falcon is completely useless as a character without it, dude.

Far from it. I just see a cool side taunt with untapped potential. :/

 

[Gold_TSG]

Okay, sheesh! It sounded like a good idea to me. Falcon's side taunt is staying useless, great...

Mario, DK, and Jigglypuff got highly useful regular taunts. A simple cancel wasn't asking for much.

DK's heal is being removed cause it's too strong, and he doesn't need it.

 

[Bent 00]

DK's heal is being removed cause it's too strong, and he doesn't need it.

Glad to hear it. I hope Mario's Metal Cap and Jigglypuff's Gravity are removed too. Too strong for regular taunts...

I liked Thunda Moo's old rules for taunts, before they started getting too useful and powerful.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I have no idea about gravity, or metal. Though I myself have no qualms with either of them, since metal Mario is a severe disadvantage against anyone with moves to stunlock him like Marth.

 

[Bent 00]

Did anyone like the other ideas I mentioned earlier?

I say Falcon needs help against characters that can zone him hard, like R.O.B., Ivysaur, and Samus. He's one of the few characters in Minus without a projectile. Perhaps he could spawn himself a Franklin Badge if up taunt is held a while? He could say the unused, quiet "Yess" when successful. This way, after each KO he would have the choice of charging up an instant Falcon Punch or putting on the Badge. I like the idea of buffing his side taunt enough to make it actually useful even more.

I'd like to see two new taunts and a more efficient F. Smash for Snake -- a single, faster, more powerful rocket that can be fired from 7 directions (not straight down), maybe?

Pikachu seems like he would benefit from a few small buffs. Being able to attack after Up B would be nice.

The timing for YOSHIFOOT is awkward, but workable I suppose..

ZSS needs a way to CHOOSE what her whip attacks do offstage: attack or home in on a ledge. Also, her tether recovery is unreliable; it will often just tap a ledge, but then let go, sending ZSS to a frustrating fall. It's like the tether is saying, "Yeahh, I can reach this ledge, buut I don't really feel like grabbing it and saving you... Too bad!" This seems to happen more often when a ledge is above and behind ZSS. I recall it happening more often with Up B than Side B, as well.

 

[Bent 00]

There were also these three ideas:

- Guaranteed crowd cheering after combos that are epic, but very hard to actually perform. Examples: Triple Knee or Flying Falcon Punch.
- Add a burying or bouncing attack property to Luigi's fist as he comes down from his Up B.
- Make it so Ganondorf can do an offstage Warlock Punch and make it back to the stage somehow.

 

[Sammi-husky]

The problem with this thinking bent, is that falcon already has a super taunt. i.e a taunt that is useful. Not all characters are destined to get one. Furthermore, falcon would then have 2 taunts that were useful. Another thing, the rules about taunts haven't changed. Generally, taunts are only made to be useful if there is a large risk involved, or if it isn't practical enough in battle to get a large reward from it. I.E falcons side taunt, its a cool nifty easter egg, but it's not practical enough to be used in battle. and thats the way it was designed.

Also, i didn't mean to single you out Bent. I was just explaining my reasoning as to why falcon doesn't need a useful taunt aside from his super taunt. :/

one last thing, Franklin badge was removed from DK PURELY because it didn't make sense. It worked great in DK's kit, and made his quality of life better. But it was totally out of place. This was a decision that was made by MOO and the BR before i was even back there, and despite numerous queries into the possibility of re-instating it, It was always met with the fact that it made no sense. So giving it to falcon instead is likely not going to happen. Furthermore, we don't want to make Falcon less interesting to play. By downplaying his weaknesses and making his MU's better overall, we take alot of strategy out of the counterplays that are necessary in those situations. Which is generally a bad idea.

For ZSS while i would like for that to be a thing, i don't even know if it's possible at all.

 

[Gold_TSG]

If DK's chest-pound taunt could be granted temporary reflector capability (cause look at those pecs, man!), it'd be both funny and a good solution to no Franklin badge. It has use AND counterplay~

 

[Bent 00]

The problem with this thinking bent, is that falcon already has a super taunt. i.e a taunt that is useful. Not all characters are destined to get one. Furthermore, falcon would then have 2 taunts that were useful.

Jigglypuff has two useful taunts (Gravity and Deflate), and one of Lucario's taunts works like a mini version of his ultra taunt. Luigi and Toon Link also have two useful taunts each.

Another thing, the rules about taunts haven't changed. Generally, taunts are only made to be useful if there is a large risk involved, or if it isn't practical enough in battle to get a large reward from it. I.E falcons side taunt, its a cool nifty easter egg, but it's not practical enough to be used in battle. and thats the way it was designed.

Giving Falcon's side taunt a cancel - even if only into a grab, jab, or Pawnch - would not make it too safe to use while making it too useful. You could make it so that it could only be cancelled during the latter part of the animation, after Falcon says "Come on!".

one last thing, Franklin badge was removed from DK PURELY because it didn't make sense. It worked great in DK's kit, and made his quality of life better. But it was totally out of place. This was a decision that was made by MOO and the BR before i was even back there, and despite numerous queries into the possibility of re-instating it, It was always met with the fact that it made no sense. So giving it to falcon instead is likely not going to happen.

This is Brawl Minus, where Wario farts out rolling crates bigger than he is, and Peach pulls out lightsabers. If it works well, makes the character better overall, and the majority of players like it, that's more important than whether it makes sense or not, IMO.

 

[Bent 00]

If DK's chest-pound taunt could be granted temporary reflector capability (cause look at those pecs, man!), it'd be both funny and a good solution to no Franklin badge. It has use AND counterplay~

If that's okay, then how about giving Falcon the ability to reflect projectiles with some of these (from most to least useful):

- The flame aura that appears during his down taunt and secret taunt (makes sense to me. Flame shield!)
- His hand when he uses side taunt (a use for side taunt, woo)
- A Falcon Pawnch (charged or uncharged)
- His salute we he uses up taunt (too hard to use effecively, but it's something)

Making the flame aura reflect sounds like the best one to me. Falcon would be immune to projectile spam, but wide open for a physical attack, which would lure opponents to him. You could make it so Falcon can keep the flame aura up by holding up taunt, but it damages him slightly over time (it burrnss) if held for longer than normal.

 

[Lightning]

I'm concerned why there is another discussion on Captain Falcon being able to reflect projectiles.

Falcon is a fast character. You're supposed to be all up on your opponent, not a sitting duck on the other side of the stage. Jumping, shielding, and side-stepping are there for a reason, that is if you do get far from your opponent and they have projectiles.
Sure, it may seem useful for a character that doesn't have any projectiles, but Marth, Ike, Sonic(I'm not counting his upB), Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Bowser, and Meta Knight all don't have projectiles either. Shouldn't we give them Franklin badges so they can reflect projectiles? (Well, Marth and Ike have counter, so they don't really need it that much..)

Although I don't main Captain Falcon, I'm just looking at this from a different angle. I know you find it useful because you do main him and it could be frustrating when you're against someone who does have projectiles.


And since we're talking about buffs in general, I'd like to add my two-cents: Zelda should have invincibility while doing upB. Why? Because it's always disrupted with either a projectile or someone jumping out and attacking you. Sheik has invincibility on her upB (that is for vBrawl, Minus is too fast so it doesn't really matter).
That is all.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm still saying falcon doesn't need any more buffs.

 

[Thor]

@Lightning: LOL whenever I try to gimp Zelda her up+b usually meteors me with that meteor hitbox - if you're hit out of the middle of it (which I don't think is possible) you're probably a little predictable with it, and if it's the startup you're hit out of, they're practiced at Zelda gimping. I do get the projectile thing [although you could just teleport again right away?...], so if people add invincibility, I would appreciate removing the hitbox on startup (not the end because edgehogs), or it becomes a silly counter with no punish for a whiff (unless you teleport to a bad location which is your own fault - but you can't grab or charge a smash off a whiffed teleport, unlike a whiffed counter) - at least you can shield-grab Lucario or jump and dair with good timing - wouldn't work well versus Zelda at all.

I'm also of the opinion Falcon needs zero new tools. The flame aura reflect sounds cool as long as you can't hold it (like you can't hold Ganon's sword) but I still think it's excessive - Falcon having like 3 lame matchups is not a problem considering Ice Cimbers'.... actually that's a complete sentence right there sans apostrophe.

 

[Bent 00]

^ I bet If Climbers will be buffed soon.

Why is it okay for Jigglypuff, Luigi, and Toon Link to have two useful regular taunts, but not Falcon?

 

[Pin Clock]

^ I bet If Climbers will be buffed soon.

Why is it okay for Jigglypuff, Luigi, and Toon Link to have two useful regular taunts, but not Falcon?

Jigglypuff's blowaway taunt doesn't really affect much since Gravity is so much better. Luigi's fireball and kick taunts are both situational. Toon Link's attacking taunt also isn't really noteworthy.

The only one with a useful taunt you noted is Jigglypuff's and maybe TL's wind taunt. Situational use does not relate to overall usefulness.

 

[Bent 00]

Still, all of those taunts are actually useable. Falcon's side taunt is not, as-is; if he uses it on a stage the size of FD, he's going to get punished for it. As-is, Falcon is saying "Come on (punch me in the face)", when he should be saying "Come on (if you dare)".

Also, almost forgot: Mario has two useful taunts too. Link currently has one useful taunt, but it's been said that his fairy taunt is going to be changed; he might end up with two useful taunts as well.

 

[Pin Clock]

Still, all of those taunts are actually useable. Falcon's side taunt is not, as-is; if he uses it on a stage the size of FD, he's going to get punished for it. As-is, Falcon is saying "Come on (punch me in the face)", when he should be saying "Come on (if you dare)".

Also, almost forgot: Mario has two useful taunts too. Link currently has one useful taunt, but it's been said that his fairy taunt is going to be changed; he might end up with two useful taunts too.

There are a lot of characters that don't even have one useful taunt. Peach, Bowser, Zelda, Shiek, Yoshi, Diddy, ICs, ROB....the list goes on. Giant Mario's Super Armor is also really, really, useless, so he only has one useful taunt. Doing something doesn't mean it's useful, the tug on the COME ON! is just an easter egg and should never be used in any serious situation ever.

In addition, Captain Falcon is and has always been a really solid character, as evidenced by how little he's changed over the course of Minus, and does not need any significant buffs as quite frankly, he already performs really well.

 

[Bent 00]

All I see is a currently useless side taunt and a Falcon who needs help against projectile spam.

I've made my suggestions for improvement, several of which would work well.

I think it's unfortunate if no cancel or reflect is given to Falcon just because he's already "good enough". Falcon isn't top tier at this point -- shouldn't we want to see such characters buffed up to that level, rather then left alone because of characters who are worse off?

It's up to the devs...