Brawl Minus 4.0bc Feedback Thread

[666DAMAGE]

I've been curious what people really thought of BC. What did you like? What did you hate? What were you upset didn't make the cut? I want to hear every little niggling thing, nothing is too small to mention. It is very likely the next version will be the last (though I can neither confirm or deny that, I don't know if its true) and I want to make sure it is 20000% PERFECT.

Give us all of your feedback here, for actual requests please post HERE

I'll get the ball rolling, I did not like Pokemon Stadium being changed to grass only. The one in 4.0b was much better.

 

[Neville]

BC is a really cool guy and I think everyone agrees. We love you BC <3

 

[Icons]

I've been exclusively doing casual games with friends, as opposed to online "competitive" games, so my criticism should take that into account.

That said, I think the thing that's missing most is that there is almost no where I can look to find what changes the mod actually makes to the characters, or at least one that's actually updated. The patch notes, the wiki, and other places all have outdated and/or incomplete information about what brawl minus actually does.

Other than that, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that the stages listed in the menu where you change the music don't match up with how the stages were changed since the last update, but that's pretty minor.

 

[666DAMAGE]

Casual opinion is the most important one sometimes. Thanks so much.

 

[Ludacario]

Stages
Lylat: Why is it legal, really. It's kinda like a pseudo-final frustration now. The tilting makes it terrible, I'm not sure if it was put back on purpose or not.
PS: I kinda like the transforming too
WarioWare: THANK YOU this stage was so damn tiny. Although you added Yoshi's Story, which is actually worse...

Characters
Ganondorf: Not a huge fan of the new energy ball. The dark wave thing seemed much more practical, and it couldnt be reflected. Now its just an annoying edgeguard tool.
Luigi: the side-b and up-b nerfs kinda suck, but it was kinda ridiculous how safe side-b was, and how easy luigi killed off the top.
Waluigi: His movement is kind of awkward, but it isn't awful, considering its an add-in
Mewtwo: I personally think this character is absolutely insane. His utilt and uair combo and kill. combined with his teleport, he can kill with ease. Future sight is decent, all it does is make the opponent wait more, at least the way I see it used.
Wario: Bair is still pretty dang good.

All costumes get a thumbs up (the dark blue bowser is officially mine, i called it.)

 

[Jeffrey]

Liking it so far, only complaints are:

I'd prefer if the enormous Temple stage be replaced with a smaller stage like SkyLoft (https://web.archive.org/web/20150319023931/http://projectmgame.com/en/stages/skyloft).

Also, 2-player Multi-Man Brawl is still completely broken. Attempting to start a match with 2 players causes the entire game to hang and crash.

Lastly, I've noticed the CPU player is terrible when it is any of the new characters, Mewtwo in particular. Even set to maximum difficulty, all I have to do is knock Mewtwo (or Waluigi) a little bit off the stage, and they tumble straight down making no attempt to recover.

Other than those issues, the game is really fun overall though. Looking forward to the official 4.0 release!

 

[666DAMAGE]

Stages
Lylat: Why is it legal, really. It's kinda like a pseudo-final frustration now. The tilting makes it terrible, I'm not sure if it was put back on purpose or not.
PS: I kinda like the transforming too
WarioWare: THANK YOU this stage was so damn tiny. Although you added Yoshi's Story, which is actually worse...

Characters
Ganondorf: Not a huge fan of the new energy ball. The dark wave thing seemed much more practical, and it couldnt be reflected. Now its just an annoying edgeguard tool.
Luigi: the side-b and up-b nerfs kinda suck, but it was kinda ridiculous how safe side-b was, and how easy luigi killed off the top.
Waluigi: His movement is kind of awkward, but it isn't awful, considering its an add-in
Mewtwo: I personally think this character is absolutely insane. His utilt and uair combo and kill. combined with his teleport, he can kill with ease. Future sight is decent, all it does is make the opponent wait more, at least the way I see it used.
Wario: Bair is still pretty dang good.

All costumes get a thumbs up (the dark blue bowser is officially mine, i called it.)

I dig vanilla Lylat but thanks for your feedback! I really appreciate it!

 

[Bent 00]

Ganondorf: Not a huge fan of the new energy ball. The dark wave thing seemed much more practical, and it couldnt be reflected. Now its just an annoying edgeguard tool.

Have you seen this already?

Energy Ball Pros:
It's more dangerous to get caught by. IIRC, Energy Ball does 8-48% damage.
Landing Energy Ball allows leads into easy (and deadly) follow-ups.
Its repeating hitboxes stay out longer than Dark Wave's hitboxes do.
It cannot be Spot-Dodged or Shielded.
It can be used offstage without suiciding.
It sticks to walls.
It's a GIANT FLAMING SUN OF DEATH
It takes up less space in PSA.
'Dorf can catch up to a thrown Energy Ball and run along with it, using it as a shield.
Energy Ball encourages foes to Jump over it, into a place where 'Dorf likes his foes to be: in the air in front of or above him.
Energy Ball introduces a stage hazard very briefly, which can be used to pressure and manipulate foes. More interesting gameplay.

Energy Ball Cons:
It can be reflected. Energy Ball against characters who can reflect is generally a bad idea.
It's slower then Dark Wave, making it easier to avoid.
It is easy for a low-damage foe to escape from, because the hitbox size was over-Nerfed (IMO).
It doesn't cover as much horizontal distance at once as Dark Wave does.
Stronger enemy projectiles will plow right through Energy Ball without stopping.
It's just a max-charge Super Scope shot, no fancy PSA here. But it works!
Using it will destroy any item in 'Dorf's hand. This will be fixed next version.

Dark Wave Pros:
It can not be reflected back against 'Dorf; Dark Wave flips on his Y axis, and 'Dorf flips around with it.
It can KO foes with high damage by itself (no follow-up necessary).
It deals all of its damage at once. No escaping with partial damage.
It can go through walls.
Stronger enemy projectiles tend to clang with Dark Wave rather than go through it.
Some say it is better at edge-guarding than Energy Ball is -- but I think they're about even in that department.

Dark Wave Cons:
It does less damage: 16% on ranged hitboxes and 32% on fist hitboxes, IIRC.
It deals a single hit with modest knockback and KBG. Energy Ball's follow-ups are much better.
It is easier to dodge than Energy Ball. Neither can be aimed, but 'Dorf can interact with Energy Ball. Dark Wave is "Fire and Forget".
Using it offstage is suicidal.
It does not line up with 'Dorf's arm properly, most noticeably when used offstage.
It looks like a wave of Grape Soda to some.
It takes up more space in PSA.
Dark Wave doesn't have interesting counterplay. You just avoid it or get hit in a second.

Energy Ball is actually really good, and Dr. is working on making it even better.

On a different note, here's something I posted on the Minus Discord:

Would anyone else like to see super taunts' input changed from "Up Taunt > Down Taunt > Up Taunt" to just "Hold __ Taunt"?
It's fine for Luigi's dance, and it's not as much of a problem with Lucario's ULTRATAUNT, but with Falcon's Instant Falcon Punch Charge...
As I've mentioned on the forums, if you mash too fast, Falcon will just twitch in place. But the real problem is how this unnecessarily complicated input makes charging an Instant Falcon Punch unreliable. You can generally only do it safely after earning a KO, and even then you have merely a few seconds to get it charged. I think it's too easy to mess up the "Up Taunt > Down Taunt > Up Taunt" input, which will keep you from getting the charge you deserved, and may even get you punished by the returning opponent.

TL, DNR: There's no reason for Falcon's Instant Falcon Punch Charge Super Taunt to have such an error-prone input. I'd like it to be "Hold Up Taunt" instead. You can't mess that up! Save the complex inputs for stuff that you really don't want to trigger by accident, or stuff that is meant to be "secret" -- not regularly-used moveset elements that can only be activated in clutch situations. Streamlined, reliable controls > complex, unreliable controls.

Thanks to Elliot for mentioning this issue during the Fall Special tournament stream!

 

[Takoy]

Hey! I'm speaking for both myself and a friend, XPAND, here. We played a ton of 4.0b and have been playing BC at least once a week since it came out. Being casual and semi-competitive players, we do have a few things to say about BC.

First I'll talk about stages:

• I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but Big Blue is no longer replaced by Saffron City. The fact that custom music was added for Saffron City but it went back to big blue is what leads me to believe this to be a mistake. If it is not a mistake, then I suggest reverting it to Saffron City as it was in 4.0b
• The edit to Pokemon Stadium is a good idea, but I think it should be changed. The idea of it being one transformation the entire match is fine, but it should be a random transformation every match.
• Venus Lighthouse is a terrible stage honestly. It's hard to see and the small platforms and walls cause for some terrible jank. I had a lot of fun on mario circuit, but it isn't a good stage either.
• I'm not sure if it's just recent bad luck or it's a result of the update, but characters (notably DK) get hit with lava that's under the Lavaville platform even when the lava doesn't go above it.

Time for a few characters:

1. Waluigi
   • There's an issue with his WAAAA and other custom particle effects randomly disappearing after the game has been running for a period of time. This is fixed with a simple relaunch of the system, but not being able to see the range of Waa can be an issue. This was done on a homebrew boot of a brawl disc.
   
2. Mewtwo
   • This same issue that's in Waluigi is also in mewtwo. Random particle effects, including mewtwo's shadowball, disappear randomly when playing the game. This can be a huge issue as Mewtwo can launch invisible projectiles. This was done on a homebrew boot of a brawl disc.
   
3. Wario
   • There is an issue with Wario's up-b recovery fart. Sometimes, after being hit (but not immediately after hitstun) his fart propulsion will send him the minimum vertical distance of a fart. In 4.0b, there was an issue where the fart would randomly go down. This is no longer a problem but instead we have the new problem of it sometimes not launching.
   • Thank you for fixing bair
4. Jigglypuff
   • There was a change to jigglypuff's side taunt, making it an instakilling secret power instead of the weird gravity thing. I honestly think that was a change for the worse. The gravity jank was a lot of fun and it wasn't too powerful. The new one shot is kinda just a stronger rest and I think it limits jigg's capabilities. I would like to suggest a revert of the side taunt back to the 4.0b taunt.
5. Ivysaur
   • Pls bring back ivy's in air down b (Even if you don't it's fine it was just a really fun move)
6. THE KING OF EVIL
   • As said in other comments, the 4.0b held neutral special was a better more.
   
7. Others
   • There are a few characters whose BPs and RSPs are wrong. This was a problem in 4.0b as well, but I thought it was just an issue because of my custom build. This issue is in 4.0bc unmodded though.
   • Roy and Pichu do not appear to have the particle issues Waluigi and Mewtwo have.
   • Add Pidgey
   • Remove Mei from Overwatch

Thanks for reading! I'll reply to this if I think of any more recommendations. Love the game!

 

[Bent 00]

MFW I see another post saying Dark Wave is overall superior to Energy Ball...

Anyway, I think the best solution is simply to have both Gandouken types available on the same input.

 

[Ludacario]

I realize that energy ball is a better move, I just liked the DESIGN of the dark wave more. Looked cooler imo. but yes i agree with you Bent energy ball is better. Just meh design. Not enough purple.

 

[Neville]

MFW I see another post saying Dark Wave is overall superior to Energy Ball...

Anyway, I think the best solution is simply to have both Gandouken types available on the same input.

I think Dark Wave is better than the new energy ball specifically. The new one kinda sucks but I'll agree the old energy ball was way better.

 

[player_03]

• Pls bring back ivy's in air down b

I like the new one better. Razor Leaf was too extreme - it was basically a free way to catch people at the edge, but you couldn't follow up after landing it. Giga Drain isn't free but does lead into follow-up options.

 

[Bent 00]

I think Dark Wave is better than the new energy ball specifically. The new one kinda sucks but I'll agree the old energy ball was way better.

Yeah, hopefully we'll see the Energy Ball's hitbox increased enough to get it back to "really good" without being HUGE.

It's already been confirmed that the size will be Buffed, just not by how much.

Bear with the small Energy Ball for a while longer, 'Dorf players -- please don't judge it harshly while it's at its weakest!

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

BC was cool then he four stocked me with D3 but said he'd play Ivy against me again so he's cool again

But it's actually a really cool game, my only complaint is I don't have a computer to play netplay with

 

[Thor]

I liked Dark Wave because it couldn't be reflected and totally looked like a wave of evil energy [which is what Ganondorf is supposed to have?]. The energy ball [in addition to being nerfed enough to probably be inferior to Dark Wave] doesn't exactly look like the kind of thing Ganondorf would shoot out of his fists.

But energy ball original probably was superior to Dark Wave was superior to new energy ball. I just felt Dark Wave fit best aesthetically.

 

[Bent 00]

Spoiler: HMM, which Gandouken should Ganondorf have, Energy Ball or Dark Wave...?

 

[666DAMAGE]

This is more for people to give feedback then talk about what they'd like in depth. Think of it like a "post your review" kinda thing.

 

[Thor]

HMM, which Gandouken should Ganondorf have, Energy Ball or Dark Wave...?

Ganondorf has already received quite a lot of work. Giving him even more taunt stuff is a little odd at this point when some, like Pikachu, have taunts that do nothing.

It's also complete ignoring the point that both projectiles have such horrendous startup that they're basically useless in singles [and they might have some odd uses in teams, like if GnW can bucket it, but most of the time it'd seem better for Ganondorf to help out or edgeguard alongside his teammate directly].

 

[Malkasaur]

Why was the have all stages code removed as well as the have all music code? I got a new wii recently, and had to unlock all the stages on my own. Same for the music.

 

[player_03]

and they might have some odd uses in teams, like if GnW can bucket it

It can be bucketed, but bucketing three only deals 36% and unimpressive knockback, the same as if you'd bucketed Mario's fireballs (3x grounded or 4x aerial). For comparison, bucketing Luigi's fireballs or Pichu's Thunderbolt deals 54%, and OHKOs Bowser from the edge of Final Destination. Finally, filling it with Pichu's Discharge makes it deal 63%, OHKOing Bowser from more than halfway across FD.

Ganondouken may have worthwhile uses, but filling G&W's bucket isn't one of them.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Why was the have all stages code removed as well as the have all music code? I got a new wii recently, and had to unlock all the stages on my own. Same for the music.

The stage/music codes should still be there, they were for me

 

[Neville]

The stage/music codes should still be there, they were for me

They are but don't appear to be working for some people. Hooray for Minus not working for some people and no one knowing why.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

They are but don't appear to be working for some people. Hooray for Minus not working for some people and no one knowing why.

Oh OK, that's weird

 

[Dusk]

Fun Fact: You could bucket Mewtwo's future sight at anytime the move is out and it autofills bucket. I did this in tourney against SubconsciousRose. It was actually the one thing about the MU. Only problem is that it is a mediocre thing to bucket.