Brawl Minus 4.0b Official Tournament ruleset!

[Turk Injaydii]

I personally feel Spear Pillar and PS2 are somewhat redundant, but I don't think that necessarily means it should swap out for FD. Smash 4 FD has invincible walls and generous ledges instead of magnet ledges [which may have been toned down in Minus, not sure], but I'm not sure that's an argument against Lylat [it was a Brawl starter for the duration of Brawl and it's a solid stage].

(I am hoping when Norfair 3.3 comes back that it can be at least a CP stage, but that's totally irrelevant to this discussion.)

I'll let this stage list run and tweak it based on player feedback. If I changed anything, it would prolly be just swapping Warioware and Spear Pillar's places as starter and counter picks. In the end though, there will always be some that are unhappy with a stage list, no matter what you choose. Definitely learned that from my TO experience.

 

[Farkus]

Maybe its the PM fan in me, but I've always favored FD being a counter pick. Take a slow character there if you're fast, or a character lacking spacing tools when you have projectiles, and its a free win...Lylat in Minus is neutral. Has platforms that all characters can reach easily and even poke through with attacks, everything is stationary, and its a mid sized stage that you can't easily flee from your enemy on. All those qualities make it more neutral than FD. What makes you think otherwise?... Its going to be a starter for Smash 4 at Evo this year as well, and that's with the tilting, lol.

My issue with it is how claustrophobic it is, the stage is too small, and the platforms are arranged in a way that makes it difficult to approach from above cutting of more vertically focused characters, and making it harder for them to get down. Plus the ledges are weird and its easier to get pineappled.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

My issue with it is how claustrophobic it is, the stage is too small, and the platforms are arranged in a way that makes it difficult to approach from above cutting of more vertically focused characters, and making it harder for them to get down. Plus the ledges are weird and its easier to get pineappled.

Everything presented in this post was either a personal quarrel with the stage or simply stating an aspect of the stage. Nothing was said to debunk its legitimacy as a starter. No stage is truly neutral. Smash theorists could spend all day picking apart each stage's influence on a match's meta. That is why the first match is played after each player has struck 2 stages, allowing the match to take place on what the 2 players feel to be the most level playing field for the MU.

 

[Farkus]

Everything presented in this post was either a personal quarrel with the stage or simply stating an aspect of the stage. Nothing was said to debunk its legitimacy as a starter. No stage is truly neutral. Smash theorists could spend all day picking apart each stage's influence on a match's meta. That is why the first match is played after each player has struck 2 stages, allowing the match to take place on what the 2 players feel to be the most level playing field for the MU.

A counterpick stage is any stage that gives certain characters distinct advantages over others. Obviously, there is no formula for defining when a stage stops being a starter and becomes a counterpick, otherwise there would be no need for this discussion, the problem with halberd is that it cripples a good amount of rushdown characters, and gives safety to campy characters. That's why I feel it should be a counterpick, since it is really bad for about 25-30% of the cast, and really good for another 25-30% of the cast

 

[Turk Injaydii]

A counterpick stage is any stage that gives certain characters distinct advantages over others. Obviously, there is no formula for defining when a stage stops being a starter and becomes a counterpick, otherwise there would be no need for this discussion, the problem with halberd is that it cripples a good amount of rushdown characters, and gives safety to campy characters. That's why I feel it should be a counterpick, since it is really bad for about 25-30% of the cast, and really good for another 25-30% of the cast

Very well said. I personally don't like Halberd for competitive play because of the hazards. It's a shame they're present because I love the stage. I wont allow it in bracket though.

 

[Farkus]

Very well said. I personally don't like Halberd for competitive play because of the hazards. It's a shame they're present because I love the stage. I wont allow it in bracket though.

Anyway, its your tournament, your rules, I was just curious.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Will we have any larger stages added to 4.0? There are very few stages with large blast zones in the legal stage list currently. Many, in fact, are small. It would add more diversity to the stage list if we had some larger stages. Rumble Falls could be edited to have the side blast zones match the size of the playing area and the ceiling, Dream Greens could be edited to have no apples (maybe do like PM did with Bowser Castle and make it so that you select the more neutral version of the stage by holding L), or you could add in new stages. I love the stages of this game. Just making a suggestion to help improve stage diversity.

 

[Farkus]

Will we have any larger stages added to 4.0? There are very few stages with large blast zones in the legal stage list currently. Many, in fact, are small. It would add more diversity to the stage list if we had some larger stages. Rumble Falls could be edited to have the side blast zones match the size of the playing area and the ceiling, Dream Greens could be edited to have no apples (maybe do like PM did with Bowser Castle and make it so that you select the more neutral version of the stage by holding L), or you could add in new stages. I love the stages of this game. Just making a suggestion to help improve stage diversity.

The thing about it, is that the blast lines are big for a normal Smash game, but they aren't scaled to reflect the increase in power every character received.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

The thing about it, is that the blast lines are big for a normal Smash game, but they aren't scaled to reflect the increase in power every character received.

I disagree. Though the characters are much stronger and kill earlier by consequence, the blast lines on many stages are fine and scaled properly to the rest of the stage. Many are just small by design. Thor listed many examples in the thread early on when addressing this same issue. Lavender Town, FoD, Both Yoshi's, Castle Siege are all small to small mid. And that's fine.

However, we have no stages that are large by design. Where you'd counter pick specifically for survivability. Melee Dreamland, Smash 4 Battlefield. These are stages with very large blast zones. And heck, stages like this exist in Minus. They just aren't tourney material; Dream Greens is the perfect example.

As it stands, the majority of the stages are small or small'ish (as Thor put it, lol), and the rest are mid. We have no legal large stages. It would be nice to have some large stages to round out the stage list and afford more favorable counter picks to MUs.

 

[Pin Clock]

I disagree. Though the characters are much stronger and kill earlier by consequence, the blast lines on many stages are fine and scaled properly to the rest of the stage. Many are just small by design. Thor listed many examples in the thread early on when addressing this same issue. Lavender Town, FoD, Both Yoshi's, Castle Siege are all small to small mid. And that's fine.

However, we have no stages that are large by design. Where you'd counter pick specifically for survivability. Melee Dreamland, Smash 4 Battlefield. These are stages with very large blast zones. And heck, stages like this exist in Minus. They just aren't tourney material; Dream Greens is the perfect example.

As it stands, the majority of the stages are small or small'ish (as Thor put it, lol), and the rest are mid. We have no legal large stages. It would be nice to have some large stages to round out the stage list and afford more favorable counter picks to MUs.

These are understandable complaints. I'll talk to the BR about the stage list and if nothing can be done, we'll look into it possibly for 4.0.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

These are understandable complaints. I'll talk to the BR about the stage list and if nothing can be done, we'll look into it possibly for 4.0.

Awesome! Thanks for taking it into consideration. I don't have any programming knowledge, but I have a few suggestions that could possibly be a quick fix till 4.0 is released.

(1) Extend the side blast zones of Rumble Falls. Its a large stage with a high ceiling, but the side blast zones seem to be right off camera; making the stage deceptively small.
(2) Remove the apples from Dream Greens. Its an amazing stage that I'm sure many would enjoy in bracket; I know my friends love it for friendlies. That being said, I realize the apples add a certain charm to the stage for friendlies. Perhaps you all could patch them out for now to add a legal stage. Then in 4.0, do what PM did for Bowser's Castle: Keep the original Dream Greens, then make the apple'less version selectable by holding the L button.
(3) Simply bring back the PS1 Grass. That stage is large and everyone loved it back when it was in. TO's of our scene are currently allowing PS1 in bracket so that we have a large stage for counter picking. The Rock and Fire transformation are a bit janky, but we figure its better than going without a large stage or having too many small-mid stages.

Hope this is helpful and thanks again!

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I personally think that if the game allows it, it should be allowed. Otherwise, what was the point of modding the game if a person still needs to expend extra mental energy making sure they don't "stall" or go for too many chain grabs?

 

[My Man]

Why is it that Halberd is a competitive stage? Can't you still go throw the ground? Aren't there also hazards?

 

[Neville]

Did...did you forget Dreamland 64 existed or what.