Brawl Minus 4.0b Official Tournament ruleset!

[Pin Clock]

Brawl Minus has never had a ruleset, has it? Especially not one up to date with the current game. Let's fix that. Here's a ruleset proposal:

• Items are set to Off and None.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 8 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches. The semi-final and championship sets should be in best of 5 format.
• Blatant stalling is prohibited. What is considered stalling is up to the Tournament Host to determine.
• Chaingrabs are limited to 3 of the same throw in a row. (EX: Pichu dThrow)
• Suicide Rule: If a match ends by both remaining players losing their last stock at the same time due to a suicide move (EX: Flame Choke, Galactic Crusher) then the initiator of the suicide move is considered the winner of the match regardless of what the results screen says, and no tiebreaker is played.
  
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players and the Tournament Host agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with Dave's Stupid Rule (DSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match with one life and 3 minutes of time, using the same characters on the same stage. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Stages
Round 1: Each player strikes 2 stages, and the last stage remaining is chosen. The strike order is 1-2-2-1. In other words, one person strikes one, the second person strikes twice, and the first strikes last.
Round 2: Counterpick stages can now be selected. The Winner of the last round strikes 3 stages, and the loser of round 1 can choose any remaining stage to play the second match on.

Starters:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Spear Pillar

Counterpicks:

• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Lavander Town
• Castle Siege
• Fountain of Dreams
• Lylat Cruise
• Halberd
• Warioware (Singles Only)
• Rumble Falls (Doubles Only)

 

[Valravn]

I like the stage list! I think Spear Pillar is a perfectly fine starter, but more than 5 isn't really needed.

 

[Thor]

Lylat Cruise as a starter over Fountain of Dreams for a more unique layout [is my vote].

The counterpick list seems to feature several very small stages, but few large ones (Warioland, Yoshi's Melee, Lavendar Town are all quite small, Castle Siege is smallish, Yoshi's Island Brawl is medium, Lylat Cruise is large-ish, Spear Pillar is probably large as well). Are there any good stages with large blastzones? I wish Dreamgreens didn't have the apples because it would fit the bill perfectly... also if it ever gets back in, Norfair 3.3.

How many bans? Obviously that's predicated on the number of stages, but I figure I should ask if you have a general number in mind or not.

Also, for stalling: Any infinites past 250% (wall stuff), or any glitches that make the game unplayable constitute stalling. Intentionally reaching and maintaining a position an opponent cannot reach is stalling as well. [I don't think any of those things can occur in Minus, but that's the general rule.]

Incidentally, David's Stupid Rule (Winner's Variation) is what you have listed, and Modified Dave's Stupid Rule is where neither player can go to the stage they LAST won on [ex: I win games 1 and 2 on two different stages, for game 4 I may go back to the stage we played on game 1 because it is not the stage I last won on]. I recommend this version of DSR [so the real MDSR]. (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dave's_Stupid_Rule ) [We could also do Tero's Smart Rule aka SDR to avoid the M2K effect if people worry about that.]

 

[Pin Clock]

Updated the description of Dave's Stupid Rule to match the Winner's Variation

The amount of really tiny CP stages is noted, and will be looked at.

Also, for stalling: Any infinites past 250% (wall stuff), or any glitches that make the game unplayable constitute stalling. Intentionally reaching and maintaining a position an opponent cannot reach is stalling as well. [I don't think any of those things can occur in Minus, but that's the general rule.]

Sonic boosting/ROB Hoovering/Jiggs jumping/Peach Floating under the stage from ledge to ledge when the foe can't safely go under the stage
Exploiting Recovery Glitches
Chaingrabs on certain characters

The last two will be fixed in the full version of 4.0 of course, but should still be noted in the rules for 4.0b.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Fountain as Starter?

My life is complete. <3

 

[Mariosonicman1]

unfortunate final frusteration isnt on that list. oh well, i hope this tourney goes well.

 

[Pin Clock]

unfortunate final frusteration isnt on that list. oh well, i hope this tourney goes well.

This is a ruleset for Tourneys, as far as I know, no one is currently hosting one

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Vengeance series had Frustration on the ruleset.

It's funny.

 

[Pin Clock]

Updated the proposed list. Changes:

Spear Pillar is now a starter for Singles and Doubles
Fountain of Dreams is now a Counterpick
Halberd is now a counterpick
Warioware is now only allowed as a counterpick in Singles
Yoshi's Story (Melee) Is now banned due to its teeny tiny blast zones. This issue will be looked at in the full version of 4.0, but for 4.ob, it will be a banned stage.

 

[Thor]

Updated the description of Dave's Stupid Rule to match the Winner's Variation

The amount of really tiny CP stages is noted, and will be looked at.



Sonic boosting/ROB Hoovering/Jiggs jumping/Peach Floating under the stage from ledge to ledge when the foe can't safely go under the stage
Exploiting Recovery Glitches
Chaingrabs on certain characters

The last two will be fixed in the full version of 4.0 of course, but should still be noted in the rules for 4.0b.

ROB hovering is only questionably banned unless ROB's fuel works differently in this game [in Brawl and Smash 4, it only recharges on the ground, so this can't happen forever]. One way to cover all of these rules at once [including the ROB thing] is the Brawl anti-scrooging rule: no player may go under the stage, then back under it again, unless they first touch the stage [and Smashville's platform doesn't count for this rule]. Violating it is a forfeiture of a stock.

So like, if I recover to ledge, I can go to the other ledge, but then I can't go BACK under to the other ledge again unless I've already touched the stage [and not Smashville's platform if on Smashville].

 

[Pin Clock]

Anti-scrooging is covered under "No Blatant Stalling", and it's the TO's job to determine what constitutes blatant stalling.

 

[Joeybeta]

Hey there Pin Clock. Just wanted to say I had a tournament ruleset similar to yours established back with my group prior to even knowing you made one. I wanted to first point out that I COMPLETELY overlooked Spear Pillar's changes and wasn't even a thought to making it a legal stage to me nor my local group which is kinda embarrassing on my end considering I'm carrying most of our activity playing the game ^^; .

I wanted to post what my first stagelist was for the sake of comparison to what I'm going to fix on later.
~Neutral/Starter Picks~
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Yoshi's Island(Melee)

~Counter Picks~
Rumble Falls
Castle Siege
Warioware Inc.
Lavender Town
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium

Initially I didn't think Yoshi's Island(melee) would be much of an issue. Though it typically wasn't my stage of choice to play on for most of my characters so I couldn't lab it out enough. Now with my current knowledge of Spear Pillar, I replaced YI(melee) with SP and putting YI(melee) in limbo for the time being.

You bring up a good point with Warioware and Rumble Falls categorization of being singles only and doubles only respectively.

From the beginning of labing it out in 4.0b with Lylat and YI(brawl), I talked with a couple people from my group about it and ended up putting it in limbo, though when the full version of 4.0 comes out is when we'd decide if we were to add them or not. Halberd on the other hand seemed like a bigger no than the other 2 stages mentioned.

So that's that. As for actually getting an in person public tournament in my region, I've been caught up with work related issues and not even gonna mention transportation issues have also been holding me back as well. I have at least 2 crt's(1 currently not in my possession), 2 wiis, 2 dedicated sd cards, and 2 copies of brawl at my disposal in my home along with a stream setup as well. In a nutshell, on my own I have the equipment to get something started, I just have to get through some personal obstacles first.

 

[Mawootad]

Hey there Pin Clock. Just wanted to say I had a tournament ruleset similar to yours established back with my group prior to even knowing you made one. I wanted to first point out that I COMPLETELY overlooked Spear Pillar's changes and wasn't even a thought to making it a legal stage to me nor my local group which is kinda embarrassing on my end considering I'm carrying most of our activity playing the game ^^; .

I wanted to post what my first stagelist was for the sake of comparison to what I'm going to fix on later.
~Neutral/Starter Picks~
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Yoshi's Island(Melee)

~Counter Picks~
Rumble Falls
Castle Siege
Warioware Inc.
Lavender Town
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium

Initially I didn't think Yoshi's Island(melee) would be much of an issue. Though it typically wasn't my stage of choice to play on for most of my characters so I couldn't lab it out enough. Now with my current knowledge of Spear Pillar, I replaced YI(melee) with SP and putting YI(melee) in limbo for the time being.

You bring up a good point with Warioware and Rumble Falls categorization of being singles only and doubles only respectively.

From the beginning of labing it out in 4.0b with Lylat and YI(brawl), I talked with a couple people from my group about it and ended up putting it in limbo, though when the full version of 4.0 comes out is when we'd decide if we were to add them or not. Halberd on the other hand seemed like a bigger no than the other 2 stages mentioned.

So that's that. As for actually getting an in person public tournament in my region, I've been caught up with work related issues and not even gonna mention transportation issues have also been holding me back as well. I have at least 2 crt's(1 currently not in my possession), 2 wiis, 2 dedicated sd cards, and 2 copies of brawl at my disposal in my home along with a stream setup as well. In a nutshell, on my own I have the equipment to get something started, I just have to get through some personal obstacles first.

Sounds awesome! We're looking to tweak the stage list further for 4.0, this time with some balance changes to the stages themselves to make things a bit more polished, so we could use all of the tournament feedback we can get. If you get any feedback (or have any more feedback) about what the players think about the stages in Minus we'd love it if you share it!

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Fountain of Dreams is now a Counterpick

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Pin Clock]

Updated the ruleset with the following:

• Added a rule in regards to problematic chaingrabs. This is primarily to stop Pichu dThrow from becoming the meta. It will go away when 4.0 releases and the throw is fixed.
• Added a rule in regards to suicide moves.
• Clarified the Time Out Rule in instances of ties.
• Added a stage strike system explanation.

 

[Valravn]

Something that might be relevant: my tournaments have all been run with the timer turned off. The idea is that no amount of stalling will ever win you the game, so nobody ever does it. (Other than mind games at the ledge that have a purpose.) Nobody just runs around to waste time.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Ya know, I had a really odd thought about time outs that sounds both overly complex and unnecessary but it might work.

So in the event of a time out, instead of there being percent bullshit (which imo is irrelevant, but higher stock count still wins):

• The game is marked as a draw.
• The next game is played, with stage roles swapped i.e. if you counterpicked last game you now ban
• In the event that the set is tied after 3 or 5 games, a condensed game is played
  • 2 stocks, 4 minutes
  • Game 1 procedure is done. Yes, we do the whole striking procedure again.
  • In the event it's still tied (stocks, obv), then it will be marked as a draw on brax; UNLESS it is not possible (Single/Double Elim brax), in which a 1 stock, 2 minute game is played on the same stage, and will continue to be played until a winner emerges.

So in essence, there cannot be a winner by timeout, except in the instance that they have more stocks, of course. I look at this to be a great method for preventing timeouts.

Of course I expect it to not be implemented, but I like it.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

• Pokemon Stadium 2

Why is it that you guys changed PS1 in 4.0b? I've seen footage in which it was stuck on the jungle transformation. That looked really awesome and greatly separated it from PS2....now you essentially have 2 slots for the same stage...which is VERY redundant. Any chance we'll get PS1 jungle transition back for the final version of 4.0??

 

[Mawootad]

Why is it that you guys changed PS1 in 4.0b? I've seen footage in which it was stuck on the jungle transformation. That looked really awesome and greatly separated it from PS2....now you essentially have 2 slots for the same stage...which is VERY redundant. Any chance we'll get PS1 jungle transition back for the final version of 4.0??

We're considering bringing back jungle only PS1

 

[Turk Injaydii]

We're considering bringing back jungle only PS1

Cool beans, glad to hear it! I'll add in some Awesome Sauce if ya'll make the final decision to bring it back!

 

[vanity.]

IMO, Lavander Town is way too small to be a doubles stage. It should be a singles only stage and maybe have Kongo Jungle as a double stage for compensation, and then if you need to add another counterpick stage, Delfino and Frigate work. I'd really like to be able to counterpick Delfino, personally. From my experience with tournaments, everyone almost always strikes Lavander anyways.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'll be holding my first Minus Bracket soon. I love that there are so many good stages for competitive play. However, I also believe stage lists shouldn't be too big. For my stage list, I'm allowing 11 stages with 2 strikes. I tried to do 10 like PM, which also has many stages that could be used, but just had to include all neutrals that are unique to Minus. Smaller lists work out better because they keep striking to a minimum to allow for more powerful counter picks.
Starters- Smashville, BF, Spear Pillar, PS2, Lylat
Counters- FD, Rumble Falls, Castle Siege, Lavender Town, Warioware, FoD

 

[Farkus]

I'll be holding my first Minus Bracket soon. I love that there are so many good stages for competitive play. However, I also believe stage lists shouldn't be too big. For my stage list, I'm allowing 11 stages with 2 strikes. I tried to do 10 like PM, which also has many stages that could be used, but just had to include all neutrals that are unique to Minus. Smaller lists work out better because they keep striking to a minimum to allow for more powerful counter picks.
Starters- Smashville, BF, Spear Pillar, PS2, Lylat
Counters- FD, Rumble Falls, Castle Siege, Lavender Town, Warioware, FoD

How is Lylat a starter over FD, like, I get that FD isn't starter material, but Lylat is even worse of a starter.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

How is Lylat a starter over FD, like, I get that FD isn't starter material, but Lylat is even worse of a starter.

Maybe its the PM fan in me, but I've always favored FD being a counter pick. Take a slow character there if you're fast, or a character lacking spacing tools when you have projectiles, and its a free win...Lylat in Minus is neutral. Has platforms that all characters can reach easily and even poke through with attacks, everything is stationary, and its a mid sized stage that you can't easily flee from your enemy on. All those qualities make it more neutral than FD. What makes you think otherwise?... Its going to be a starter for Smash 4 at Evo this year as well, and that's with the tilting, lol.

 

[Thor]

I personally feel Spear Pillar and PS2 are somewhat redundant, but I don't think that necessarily means it should swap out for FD. Smash 4 FD has invincible walls and generous ledges instead of magnet ledges [which may have been toned down in Minus, not sure], but I'm not sure that's an argument against Lylat [it was a Brawl starter for the duration of Brawl and it's a solid stage].

(I am hoping when Norfair 3.3 comes back that it can be at least a CP stage, but that's totally irrelevant to this discussion.)